OlderThanMe Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Well after a bunch of reading on turbomustangs.com it is fairly aparent that a stock 302 block splits at 500hp. I am looking to build a ford short block that can spin up high and make more than 500hp. One idea I had was replace the 302 crank with a 289 crank(reduce rotating mass) which may help in not splitting the block. There is also the option of getting hold of a 351 block and building that. I don't want to buy an aftermarket block because of the $$$$ problem. I plan on all forged internals anyway so that should hold way more power than I am planning on making anyway. I am leaning toward finding a 351 and building that rather than a 302/289 engine since they have a tendency to split. I'm looking at the putting out maybe in the low-mid 20psi range with good internals and aluminum heads. The article in the hot-rod magazine about the internals on a Nelson engine is really straight forward and I'll probably do similar processes on my build. Any help on this would be greatly apreciated! Thanks guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sven Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 What is this... Nelson engine you speak of? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defrag010 Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 a 351 will take as much power as you can realistically put at it. 1/2" headbolts, and buy some splayed 4-bolt main caps for it w/ a girdle and you will be set to rock and roll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbokid Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 What is this... Nelson engine you speak of? http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 280ZForce Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 OTM... my brother has a 351 cleveland in his 67 mustang and I'll tell you, those things can be built to be extreme monsters! 351 all the way > the other option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 A 351W (and I am making reference to the Windsor) can be built, using the readily available stroker kits, to anywhere between 383 to 427 CID. These values would allow 500 hp on a N/A motor without the turbo. The stock configuration (stroke/bore) 351W with a fairly mild 10 PSI boost should push you past 500 HP as well. I'm going with the 383 as it has the best RL/Stroke ratio (6.25" rods). To me it will be a good compromise of torque, power, cost and longevity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted February 27, 2007 Author Share Posted February 27, 2007 Then this summer I'll look for a 351 in the JY (I'll be a scavanger for parts and such) I delivered a pizza to a guy that had a fox body 'stang in the garage with a 351 dart block motor...760 N/A hp on race gas no spray...lol I am thinking that a stock spec windsor block should hold that much boosted power... I don't want to get too crazy with a stroker but some good pistons with internals that give a good r/s ratio. I am probably going to build everything overkill to hold up against some detonation I guess. I'll probably want to warm up the boost a little bit too after I get it tuned. Only time will tell... Terry, are you staying N/A? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Yes, I will stay N/A at this point in time. The potential (power verses cost) for these strokers is so inviting that I'm not considering any power adders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icewtr Posted February 27, 2007 Share Posted February 27, 2007 Ok i have to comment on that one about the stock 302 splitting at 500 hp... wrong .. it has nothing to do with the hp .. it is the rpm and vibration that does it .. i have a stock block 342.. non bored or it would be a 347 .. i put 625 at the wheels on brothers performance dyno.. over 3 years now .. my shift point is 5800.... i never go over that .. that is with a pt76 turbo kit and afr heads. the 2 blocks i have seen split one made 345 hp and one 4 something .. both revving near 7000 ..the block cracks right from where the lifter retainer plat bolts to the block .. also use a main girdle .. helps .. but yeah they do come appart but all motors break .. i have a dart block that cracked all the main caps.. that was supposed to be bullet proof and 700 hp broke that one ...all due to an over rev .. just my 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted March 1, 2007 Author Share Posted March 1, 2007 Thanks for the info guys! My motor is different from a lot of guys motors here...A bunch of guys build motors for top end power for use with an automatic tranny for drag racing... I am going to be using a manual tranny and road racing/hot street driving the car...That means I need a wide power range to be effective. With an L-series motor you can rev the daylights out of it and not crack the block...I don't think I've ever seen a L6 that cracked from stress...I've seen holed blocks and such but never cracks. I guess I need to get used to the lower rev limit with a V8 than with an L6. Thanks for the info guys! I guess I'll start gathering parts this summer! What fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted August 16, 2007 Author Share Posted August 16, 2007 To end the story... I went with a VH45DE from a 1993 Infinity Q45. Hopefully to be installed and then boosted. The big thing with USA market V8's is that you can't throw in forged slugs and be done with the bottom end. The VH45 is all forged except for the pistons. Just what I was looking for!! OTM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordsunzx Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 the vh45 is a nice motor but parts are slim and expensive i think th 351w is abetter choice or 4.6 3 or4v for parts availability and price. the vh45 will be sweet though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudypoochris Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 What manual trans are you going to go with for the VH? Those are good engines, close deck. Where are you getting your forged pistons for how much? I know complete assemblies for the windsors are pretty cheap. I still would have gone 351W though. Reason being: -351W is cheaper to build up and repair. -Going out on a limb and guessing the 351w is more compact (confirm someone?) -There are readily avilable mounts for the windsors -The two engines weigh about the same (Think the 351w is 510-525lbs iron headed, the VH is 510-520lbs alluminum everything). With AL heads the 351 should be lighter -Extra 28% more displacement. Better power curves for road course. Either will be awesome though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted August 19, 2007 Administrators Share Posted August 19, 2007 What manual trans are you going to go with for the VH? Well, I can't speak for OTM, but he could configure his Wolf3D system to run the VH automatic... Paddle shifters just became 'easy'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted August 20, 2007 Author Share Posted August 20, 2007 What manual trans are you going to go with for the VH? Those are good engines, close deck. Where are you getting your forged pistons for how much? I know complete assemblies for the windsors are pretty cheap. I still would have gone 351W though. Reason being: -351W is cheaper to build up and repair. -Going out on a limb and guessing the 351w is more compact (confirm someone?) -There are readily avilable mounts for the windsors -The two engines weigh about the same (Think the 351w is 510-525lbs iron headed, the VH is 510-520lbs alluminum everything). With AL heads the 351 should be lighter -Extra 28% more displacement. Better power curves for road course. Either will be awesome though. Well after a lot of work reading up on the Ford motors to build a BOOSTED motor I'd want all forged internals. Not CHEAP. All I need for the VH is pistons which is easy and well within my budget. Getting a tranny that can handle 500+ hp won't be cheap with either motor. The stock auto tranny can be built to handle 800hp. Mounts: Meh... I'm good with solidworks and know my way around a welder. They won't be a problem. 351 being cheaper to build up: Hmm... I'm not sure about that one. I got my whole VH drivetrain for well under $300 and it is in pretty good condition. I'll probably spend a grand on some top notch custom pistons and then add some bearings and gasket kit and the bottom end will be done. I'm not going to go crazy with this bottom end but a future motor may be pretty trick. Just a simple balancing and polishing job is in order. Manual trans: I was going to do a Z32 trans... My VG33 truck trans w/ 40k miles is similar and I'm feeling a little bit of the 3rd gear synchro not being happy. The Z32 trans has the same tendency for synchro failure. I'll stay with the automatic and make it worth my while with some trick stuff... Weight: Well I'm taking all of the extra OE EFI junk off the engine and will build a harness that doesn't add 30 pounds to the deal. Should be able to take 20 pounds off at LEAST! I just built a harness for the rest of the car with my Dad with all standard auto-zone parts. Came out around $200 plus the DIY experience I now have. Well, I can't speak for OTM, but he could configure his Wolf3D system to run the VH automatic... Paddle shifters just became 'easy'. I would call that one of the "trick" things on the to-do list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardBlack Posted August 22, 2007 Share Posted August 22, 2007 Forged internals won't save a '5.0' block anyways. The block itself is too thin and splits right down the center. In all honesty, most windsor motors are expensive to get beyond the 500 whp range. Revs and power combined together is what kills them. Much beyond 6krpm is asking to kill it. Stay below that and you actually aren't going to have near the problems. Otherwise you need a Ford Motorsport or equivalent block ranging from 1 to 2k just for a bare block. The early 351W blocks can withstand a little more, however. I think a Nissan V8 is probably a better choice to get beyond that number without losing your sanity or making the block a regularly replaced item. Hope things are going well and we wanna see pics! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted August 22, 2007 Author Share Posted August 22, 2007 Forged internals won't save a '5.0' block anyways. The block itself is too thin and splits right down the center. In all honesty, most windsor motors are expensive to get beyond the 500 whp range. Revs and power combined together is what kills them. Much beyond 6krpm is asking to kill it. Stay below that and you actually aren't going to have near the problems. Otherwise you need a Ford Motorsport or equivalent block ranging from 1 to 2k just for a bare block. The early 351W blocks can withstand a little more, however.I think a Nissan V8 is probably a better choice to get beyond that number without losing your sanity or making the block a regularly replaced item. Hope things are going well and we wanna see pics! Mark That is pretty much what I have read. 5.0 blocks split at 500hp and 7000. The VH block is out there making 1200hp in some cases and no block splitting... I'm wanting to keep the bottom end mostly stock with the addition of forged pistons and then do a lot of top end work. The intake runners on the VH45 could be bored out a little and the exhaust runners aren't too bad. When compared to some of the deep L6 head work I have seen this is going to be a cake walk. The hard part is just finding parts. I may need to have some custom valve springs made to my specs since the aftermarket for the VH is about as available as rust free series 1 fairladyZ in the swamps of FL. I'm looking at getting a set of cam blanks to work with as well for the VH. I'll keep the updates coming. OTM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted August 22, 2007 Author Share Posted August 22, 2007 Here is my thinking of a fun idea to do... The Ferrari F430 V8 looks almost identical to a VH45 Time to find some Ferrari emblems... HOTTNESS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z24O Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 did you consider a mexican 302W block,presume they are not too thin on the ground in the US....i managed to pick a whole mexican longblock up for AU$200 in australia agree that if you keep it under 6000rpm it will hang together,bolt on a cheap masterpower T70 with a small hotside A/R and 500+hp is a walk in the park(with enough fuel,exhaust,etc) as well as being very responsive i find the late model stuff although technically engineered much better ends up costing way more once you try achieving above the factory ratings,the auto gearboxes(the manuals aren't usually designed to take too much more hp than std....there are some exceptions in the turbo cars eg nissan skyline and supras) tend to be an expensive nightmare that always require complicated electronic controlling will be following your progress,good luc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 The Mexican blocks have the larger caps, but are they any more robust above the caps in the webbing? Power and RPM appear to be a sum game in determining a block's durability. My N/A 289 is a 376 HP/325 lb torque motor, but I rev it to the 7200-7500 range all the time (stock crank, block, rods, with no girdle). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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