BlackdogNY

There will unlikely be any surprises with this car(body wise, eng. maybe something from sitting), I know the owner VERY well and even helped drive the car home from CA, some 25 yrs ago. I just saw the car around New Years, dusty, but better then I was expecting. The car will be going to the Boston area. I am willing to ship the car to any shop that is willing/able to get the work done. If not, it will just take longer to do it myself. I will be getting busy with work in the next month, so time will be hard to find. As I get older, the late nites working on the car after a full days work will be difficult to get modivated for. B&G

After what seemed like a ton of wasted interweb searching(operator error), I have found a few shops. AMS in Chicago: their work looks excellent, welding is VERY nice. They are in the wrong directions and have not asked if they work on older Z's. National Speed in NC: work looks very good, again out of the way. RDZ in CT: I think a Bob Sharp guy?? Datsun Spirit in VA: kinda out of the way. Dent Sport Garage near Boston: ??? Anyone have exp. with these guys?? Will keep looking..........I have a little time to decide on what to do. B&G

Not even considering driving the car back home. It is way cheaper/easier to have it shipped(enclosed). I was just considering having the work done because I am getting old /lazy and thought the Motorcity would be a good place to find a shop. I need to have the parts shipped to ?????, I don't have anything in hand. I guess I can expand my shop search to anywhere between Detroit and Boston. Detroit being East is like anything north of Westchester is farmland or Canada.

My 'new to me' Z is in Detoit and I am considering having a bunch of work done before I ship it back east. I has not run in a long time(It did run when it was put on the moving truck a few yrs ago). Very clean/rust free car. What do I want done?: 1. Install full AZC suspension/brakes 2. New wheels/tires 3. Since it has been sitting for so long, flush/replace all fluids(i am willing to bet there is some Sunoco 94 from early '90's in it) replace rubber hoses. Adj. valves/tune-up(basicly get it to run again). 4. Install LSD(I have a line on a Gleason, if not put a LSD in existing r200). 5. Some minor cage work. There might be other stuff, will see. Would like a shop that has worked on a Z before. Thanks, B&G

My point was different approaches for different people/personalities. I did not know you were trying to teach people. Helping I would think is more appropriate. Arrogance and tough talk is not for me. It is to late in my life to change my ways. I am sure there are many more that feel the same way. If you don't want to help, don't. Some like to bitch about it. That's why delete seems best option. In the real world, I for one go out of my way to help if I can. Can't count the number of times jumpstarting/changing tires/pulling cars from snow banks whatever. Now, if I was at a track and knew the person that was in need of assistance was a arrogant dick, I would say to myself......hum, piss off. I have gone so far as to take the radiator from my car to help a a Z owner stuck on the highway. I will usually read most posts that Tony responds to, even if it is nothing I am interested in. I told you before, I respect your knowledge and occasional sarcasm. Some are just plan fun. You go a bit far sometimes, so be it. Mikelly, not so much. You seem to act like the cop that pulls me over for doing 23 in a 20(really happened). Unnecessary and a power trip. I could be wrong, some of my better friends started out on the wrong foot. Just because Rudy had a hard apprentice does not means its the best way. Giving a dog a bone when they are good is far better than beating its ass for being bad. I have yet to ask for help.... so we will stay in the library for now. B&G

Surprisingly, some people would not respond well to having random auto parts hurled in their direction. It may make some never ask a question again, which is a shame. A good teacher/boss/mentor should know the most effective way to get the best out of their people. Now, personal injury will work for some. When I was impressionable, a lug nut high and tight might be...returned. Later in life, as Jenna Marbles (very funny, cute dogs and ya HOT) said... 'Piss off MFer's'. I said it before, it would seem to take more time to tell a 'stupid question asker' they are a waste of interweb memory and we have answered that 10billion times.....whatever, just delete it. They will get the point without being belittled. Again, that 'stupid' person may help you one day. This site will not grow without 'newbies'. You have no idea what they have done before or could do in the future. I have been around Z's since the late 80's as a stupid college kid. That stupid kid drove a car back from CA, did some cool mods and because of this 'hybrid z library' will start my new project soon. Will I post stuff here...maybe. BTW back in the early 90's I know I had the only '77 with a VG30TT in it.... a NPTI built VG. Don't believe me, ask John Caldwell(you oldtimes should know him) about the kid from NY that bought one of his motors. I have gone from saying 'piss off' to silently thinking it. I am not someone who think they know everything, quite the opposite. I love finding new ways to do stuff better and my ego is not so huge to be a problem. That unfortunately may lead to a quick ducking under my desk. For people like me, a little after class help may get me that LOF job. I will continue to spend my time studying in the library(all the cool kids are at the dance). B&G

"Since the car is mainly a track toy at this point, I can take it being loud, but not so loud that I can't drive it without my ears bleeding when I am keeping my foot out of the throttle. I've already got some hearing loss, most certainly from a Datsun 510 that I had a 2.5 inch system on it years ago... I used to drive 1.5 hours each way every weekend to see my girlfriend. Anyway, I plan to drive this car to and from the track and on the road every now and then. Has anyone here run just a single Borla XR-1 like this:" What I got from this was that this car was very similar to what I use to do. A track car is very different. My choice of muffler would be perfect for this situation. If you don't believe the claims of Supertrapp, do what I suggested and take the end cap off at the track. Even if the muffler loses power with the discs, I do not think a seat of your pants test would tell a difference. You did not insult me, if I cared about your opinoion....maybe it would be hurtful. Now that is not a crack on you, I would never build my car to make someone else happy. I said show me a video of a better muffler(as long as it is s/s) and then I will happily change(when the time comes). Since Inline has already pick a muffler and moved on, lets just say we agree to disagree. Thanks to the genius of the interweb, we have turned a 2 min. conversations into hrs. of wasted time. This might have been fun to do at a event somewhere, but this way is a stupid. B&G

Part # SU5-433519 Supertrapp 5" Disc Series, Stainless Steel, 3-1/2" Pipe Diameter and 3" Core Diameter Length: 18.5", Weight: 7 lbs Not sure if this is shipping weight. Mine was the smaller core/disc.= it would be slightly lighter.... Borla XR-1 Race Muffler Part# Product Type Inlet/Outlet Configuration Shape Tubing Size Case Size 400371 Muffler Center/Center Oval 3" 16" x 4.25" x 7.88" Shipping Weight (in lbs) Box Size (L x W x H) (in inches) 12 21x8x11 A HUGE difference....I know ounces add up but in a streetish car... I will make one final statement....when I built the exhaust mentioned in this thread, about 20 yrs ago, my main concern was a car that sounded badass. Heard said muffler on a few sportbikes and cars, liked the sound. Read a article/test that they did a decent job, mover forward with my life. I never was that hungup on hp levels and how to change where my torque curve a few hundred rpm.T he exhaustmay or may not hurt hp. It was a lightly modified car that I took to the track a few times and drove for pleasure the rest of the time. Never dyno'd. Got tons of complements on how it sounded. Made me happy whenever I drove it. I have a new design I want to try and I will use the same criteria when I take that same system off my 'new to me' car'. Yes, my new Z has my old system on it(I gave it to the owner when I sold my car). The OP seemed to be in a simular situation as I was. I offered a opition that I thought would help. End of story. B&G

"Now, if they had started with a stock Mustang with the stock exhaust and then did the test... who knows" Wow, this is getting crazy. I stood next to a Z06, stock,100% original, low miles. Dyno runs for a baseline. Aftercat added, holy sh&t it made more power. Where it was TUNED to make that power, I did not get that close to the computer to see. The numbers were higher. Break out the wrenches, headers(Kook's)...better. Thermostat change...better. Custom computer tuning....better still. Customer happy, car sounded great, lots of $ exchanged. Now, did it make more power at every point in the 0-7000rpm, not sure. I now after the computer work it was a pretty even increase. That point would be expected, he is able to change a lot of parametors at all rpm levels. Leon, since you love to point out my lack of edgamacation and reading comprehension I will again insult your intelligence. "I don't even see mentions of "Supertrapp" on that website. The other link does't work for me and I've seen ZERO dyno numbers showing the Trapp (appropriate name...) results thus far" The two charts that I first posted had Stupidtrapps on them. I think it came from a Car Craft test done many yrs ago and I, with my limited skills was not able to find the original article. I beg your forgiveness, surely you will find that test in a jiffy. "There may not be a big difference between the "Trapp" and others at a certain point, but what do you think happens when you have a smaller amount of plates? They just restrict the exhaust. This is not "tuning", not even close" Well it defiantly is for sound level, it makes a huge difference. That is their claim on how to tune their mufflers. If you see the chart, it seems to be true for db and hp. Seat of the pants, I can't remember feeling a big change other than db's. "Installing a cat-back system and tuning the engine to "match" the exhaust is not "exhaust tuning". Gaining power over a stock exhaust doesn't say much at all, factory exhausts are not typically designed for max performance, there are myriad strict guidlines for them to adhere to." I never said it was, I think I said tuning to me involved a increase of hp/tq. I never said anything about tuning a engine(computer) until 3 sentences ago. The last part of this makes no sense, what does it say, increasing hp is not real. "You're really getting off track at this point. We're talking about the "Trapp" muffler to be a viable alternative for a "mainly" track car. Inline6's requirements have been posted and re-posted. I see no dyno results that support your claims and I refuse to buy a Supercrapp just to test. It's like buying one of those intake vortex generators to see if it helps, some things are just a terrible idea/marketing ploy in the first place" I saved you the trouble...I bought one. I posted a few comments from personal experiences and part of a test(which I am sure you have found by now). His issue was noise levels, even if you think that Supertrapp's suck as a muffling device, I will say as a fact they are completely 100% tunable for sound levels. Now since its construction is mainly a glasspack, if you wish, remove the endcap at the track. Just put it back on for the ride home with however many discs your ears can handle and be done with this discussion." "As an aside: I am actually curious as to how much a Trapp weighs with all plates installed, vs. say a Borla XR-1 or the like..." I am working on this, but really, now you are going to bust balls over the weight.....If I can remember, a 100lb weight change will effect a 1/4 mile et by a tenth. If this is wrong, sorry. If it is correct, who gives a sh&t, its a street/trackday car. There a tons of ways to lower weight for a race. A few oz. of muffler weight, skip that after breakfast doughnut. I will say they are not very heavy. The discs weigh basicly nothing. Damm this was a lot of typing...I should get a free muffler out of this. B&G

The exhaust after that should be deisgned to stay out the way as much as packaging requirements allow.John, was there a test of a original equip. exhaust on there?? This was a modified Mustang. I think the tests prove that a aftermarket muffler/pipe can improve performance over stock. If you add a tuned header assembly it will improve more(I would guess this car has one). All of the after-header gains may be small and not great $/hp, but the sound quality can offset that for many people. None of them lost power, this is what you said a exhaust system is suppose to do. "The exhaust after that should be deisgned to stay out the way as much as packaging requirements allow'. If the whole system you buy/make, sounds like you wanted and is drivable(drone,db's), good deal. Like you said the difference between all the mufflers, my choice included, is within dyno error, so it would come down the the drivability and personal sound preference. Leon and others have their own favorites. I hope this ends this. B&G

From the December, 2002 issue of 5.0 Mustang & Super Fords Read more: http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_0212_ford_mustang_muffler_comparison_test/viewall.html#ixzz2JQ8eHCd1 see if this works.....

John, what I read was a 20 yr old Car Craft test(chart) and the other was in 5.0 Mustang(link). No reason to believe they are not legit. Now saying XYZ is crapp is a opinion that will need to be proven. I am sure many are(loved seeing the car polish ads when they lite the hood on fire). Leon still seem to feel strongly that XYZ is bad, even with a decent dyno test. Don't care, that is his issue. Goldfish, sorry about the link I copied it from the story, will try to get it back. The last part about the discs......that is how they claim to tune for power/sound/torque, more discs=more power. B&G

I guess i am stupid, so glad you are here to help me. I read two independent tests of several mufflers and have no reason to think there is some industry conspiracy to sell exhaust systems. I agree with your header/collector tuning. Not quite sure why you think that the rest is crap. Dyno results are pretty good judge. If there is a better way to pick a muffler I am all ears. I was under the impression that you tune a exhaust system for HP, sound(db and quality), and drivability(drone). If it makes power, sounds good, and you can drive it without blood loss....good job, Man you really hate Supertrapp, even with good dyno numbers....I give up discussing on the interweb. If you stop calling me stupid I will stop insulting your intelligence. B&G

So everybody with a aftermarket street exhaust should take it off and put a NOS Nissan system on(after a tuned merge collector/header). I would love to see those dyno numbers. A buddy of mine does Corvette tuning. I have seen exhaust systems make HP. Adding a good header made more, but that would be expected. The guys at classic Z will love that, less modified Z's ruining the world. B&G

The last two post have been perfect. Why not just close the site to further postings of a tech nature. Let people post builds/pics/events etc. and leave the rest along. You will never be able to stop the 'newbie stupid questions'(your words not mine). Another opinion might limiting tech posting to the few senior members that seem to so annoyed by all of this. Not a perfect world, this could make a majority of people happier. HybridZ library.

I am discussing because you seem to like to mix up a street exhaust and a open race setup. If 99.9% is made at the extractor/collector, why is there a mulit million $ business selling/claiming decent hp gains with after cat exhaust systems. You maybe correct with that % on a open header exhaust, I must disagree for anything that has a full or semi exhaust. This post was started by someone looking for advice on a 3" STREET Exhaust. You may say that you would drive a STREET car with a poor sounding/functioning system, I find that hard to believe. I just replaced a brand new 'turbo style' muffler for someone because the drone was so bad he refused to drive the car. The black paint had not even discolored. Above 3000 it was ok, 2-3000 where it was mainly being driven, crazy bad. I could not find the full article, the chart below is a muffler test. Not sure of car. Draw your own conclusions. http://www.mustang50magazine.com/tec...est/index.html is a link to another muffler test. All of the mufflers are close. I don't think many people could tell the difference. That would get me to my original point about form/function/sound/simplicity and bang for you $. In the chart below, the Supercrapp did pretty well. You can have up 24 discs on a standard endcap and they only put on 12 and 18. I originally posted on this article because of a concern I had with his rubber hangers and made a sugguestion about a exhaust SYSTEM, if he had problems and wanted to change his existing set-up. You are the one that started by typing your opinion about my current muffler. I am not that closed minded to think my sh&t is the better, prove me wrong. No mud here, just trying to offer a solution to a problem many members have complained about. If anybody from Kerker/Supertrapp is listening, can I get a discount on my next muffler?? B&G

I would not care if a system made twice the HP if it sounds like crap, who would want to drive the car. Crap is a subjective term which would include a bad drone or a sound like a Honda(with neon lites under it). They are tuneable....at least sound level. I have never dyno'd the car with more vs. less discs, I was more interested in being able to drive the car after a track offical said I was 'too loud'. And frankly, for the costs of dyno time, I am not about to. I agree it looks crazy having that endcap on there, it still sounds decent with it off. I was at Lime Rock for a track day(muffled) and a Z guy spent the entire day stuffing everything into his side exit pipe, from beer cans to random sheetmetal, to be compliant. Don't think he ever got there and maybe some fruit/veggies might have helped. Remember I am going for a streetish car. Annoying grumpy neighbors is just a plus. Not trying to get sponsored be them, just pointing their strong points. I am judging by sound quality/driveabily and $, not max. HP numbers. Maybe someone on here has spent the time to dyno a bunch of mufflers, I think Car Craft or Hot Rod did a test 20yrs ago that I read. " If you followed the linked thread, exhaust tuning is done mainly at the extractor and collector, not the pipe at the back." I did, Mainly, being the important word here. It seems equally silly to put extra muffling/weight on a car when it is not needed. B&G

Conclusions, last test sounded best....nice popping on decel. A bit to ear bleeding for me. I thought you were saying my choice of muffer was 'crapp', so unless you have a video of said system no final conclusions can be made. Like I said everybody has a happy spot for exhaust sound. And no, I do not have a video of mine yet, it will have to wait til I get the car in my own timezone. All of that testing and math is great for racing, not your average street car. Most will most likely buy headers/pipes. I will build my new system that incorporates a little of both worlds, a bought header and a custom made system. Single 3" side exit. If I hear a new style of muffler that sounds better, I may ditch my Suppercrapp. For a trackday/street car like mine, having a nasty drone at low/mid rpm is not tolerable. I don't have that now and I can quiet the car down(a lot) if need be. Hey, how about a Slowmaster. Keep posting videos, my next great muffler may be out there(I am open minded about these things). B&G

Oh do tell. What should I change to???? I am going by price, quality of sound, ease of install, and adjustablity(most track days are db limited).... not some dyno report that says so and so is .05hp better at 8500 rpm. I can drive with this set-up anywhere and not have the issues so many have complained about. They have proven themselves(to me) with a great sound accelerating and a fantastic popping on decel. Everybody has their favorite sound, this is mine, go put two mufflers, resonators, and whatever on yours....I will stick with headers/straight pipe/single muffler. I have tried flowmaster, magnaflow, dynomax, none have worked better or been less $. You also get the advantage of not spending stupid $ on a cool lookin' exhaust tip. Nice tips are about as much or more then some mufflers. If I ever get that crazy about my muffler costing HP, turning the boost up is a better(best) answer. Some might even say that the added weight of all that extra muffling is more of a HP loss. Hey, they will even keep the cridders from making a nest in your exhaust over the long winters. B&G

You might want to get some ploy bushings for hangers. Those rubber ones will sag alot more then you think/want. With the pipes so close to everything, a rattle over anything you hit will be very annoying. I realize it may be too late but a stainless Supertrapp muffler by its lonesome is a awesome sound. Tuneable, rebuildable and relatively inexpensive. I have used them for 20 yrs. on daily drives, dumptruck(v10 Ford), and my Z. Just drove 2000 miles in my DD (to see my new to me '78) with no drone issues, hearing loss etc. This is with all of the packing removed and max. discs. I have used tons of mufflers, keep coming back to what is simple and works. Hope yours sounds like you want. Post a video when you finish.

I will throw something out there that is difficult for me and maybe other possible question askers. This forum has been great to read and see all that is out there in the Datsun world. It got me interested in owning a Z again after 20 yrs. without one. I know seeing the same questions repeated is a pain in the a@@, but ignoring a stupid question is always a option. One reason that may happen is searching this forum can be difficult. With so much in here, a simply search can lead to many unrelated subjects that need to be weeded thru. I get very frustrated when looking for something and get nothing or 900 pages of stuff that might have some possible matches. Like helping someone broken down on the roadside, help if you want or just keep going. By the way, I have not asked a stupid question and yes I have helped a lot of people stuck on the road. Any help on how to search would be appreciated. I hope that does not count as a stupid question. You never know, the person at the other end of a stupid question may help you one day...... B&G