MONZTER
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Posts posted by MONZTER
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I ran the test at lower boost on the HKS Plenum. Looks the same, same equal flow distrabusion, so I wont be posting the pics.
Can anybody see anything negative about the results above?, If there was room for improvement, what would it be, and how would that be acomplished.
I would still like to see less swirling and less bends in the airflow.
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So once again, Thanks Tony D for the loan of his HKS Type 2 intake for testing.
I was really interested in seeing how this plenum would flow given the success of it over the years. My plenum I have been working on has been plagued with a couple of vortices that have been causing the front two cylinders to run with less airflow. I wanted to see how consistent the HKS would be.
So wouldn’t you know it? the HKS plenum looks pretty good. There is still swirling, but this doesn’t seem to be affecting the flow down the runners like my design is doing. The pressure looks to be even down the runners as well as the velocity.
So check out the pictures below and let me know your comments, I know now I have more work to do on my design to even out the runner flow more.
I have posted pictures of cut away views so everybody can see the internal baffling at work. I went as far as to model the plenum very accurately, down to the internal casting bumps for threads, to the shape of the runner inlet. It’s as close to the real thing as I could get.
The test was run at 20psi boost 793CFM the inlet ID was 62mm so a inlet velocity of 4880in/sec was used.
I will be running less boost on the next analysis and post the results soon.
One more thanks to TurboBlueStreak for the lessons in the Floworks software by the use of his models from previous test.
Click on the picture for a bigger view in my gallery
Jeff
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I was actually going to look into the opening of the valves in relationship to the cam I will be using. I don’t think only 1 valve is open 100% at one time. There may be 1 valve open at 100% and 1 or 2 more partially open. I will look into it.
I have most of the HKS type 2 modeled and have run a quick analysis on it. Looking really very good and even flowing so far. I will post the results soon.
MonZter
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On the V-8 engines they use a carb before the intake so the manifold is wet. On this intake the plenum it is dry because of the injector placement. Getting the air to start to swirl once it enters the runners and into the cylinder is a good thing for what you say, but having it swirl in the plenum will just make heat and reduce flow.
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Just so you guys understand, I have a day job, actually one I quite enjoy. Z cars are my hobby and will stay that way. I have no plans to make, reproduce, sell, devalue or profit from any Z plenums out there. I will have spent way more time and money on my design than if I just went and paid top dollar for an HKS. This is purely a fun learning experience that I am going through to build myself a plenum for my project. My purpose to this thread is to show all what we learn so that everybody may better have a idea of what to do when they make their own. This is what I thought this forum is about and why I like it so much. A group of intelligent creative people who love to build and fabricate their own z parts to make their z-cars into what they always dreamed about. I am seeing more and more post of people trying to sell stuff on this forum, I hope this site doesn’t become that, you won’t see this from me.
So seriously don’t you think that if somebody really wanted to copy and rip off the old HKS plenums they would have by now?
MonZter
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Tony,
Thanks again for letting me borrow these. Much appreciated
Jeff
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Jeff,
I'll be working at the Garrett R&D facility all this coming week (Lomita and Hawthorne), I PM'd you my celphone number, I can drop by the HKS plenums some time this week if you're interested. Give me a call and I can load them up...or if you're up to it, come on by the GroupZ meeting on Thursday Night (7pm) at Fuddruckers in Buena Park, and I can transfer them to you at that time.
Curious to see what happens when you reverse engineer them! LOL
That sounds great Tony. I'll get with you to check them out. It will be good to see if there is any magic in those old HKS intakes.
BTW my computer fried the other day, so I have been recovering all of my files (nothing lost) and my new computer will be in soon. This is why there have been no updates lately. Back on real soon.
Jeff
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That gorgeous work Jeff, head work has always been a art to me.
A question though, what are your thoughts behind the offset and angled plug holes? Doesn't a centered, strait plug provide better combustion?
Yes, the angled plugs are all part of the master plan. First a few more details. Like I said above the head of the pistons will be a mirror image of the head. What I did not say was that the shape of the piston under the intake valve will be domed, and the shape under the exhaust valve will be dished. The idea is to use the domed portion under the intake to make some squish which will force the charge to the exhaust side, right where it needs to be to flow out. The angled plug will now be closer the true center of the mixture, just like you said. You just have to imagine the chambers are no longer traditionally shaped, they will now be offset towards the exhaust valve. So, a few things that will make this work. First all of the chambers are designed in 3-d on Pro-Engineer, so it will be easy to design the piston tops to be exactly a match to what I am trying to do. Second, since the chambers are all CNC machined at one time, they will be perfect in shape, size, and volume to perfectly match the CNC’d piston heads. I am hoping the small tight chambers from the above idea will make for a very fast burning set-up, which means less detonation, and less timing. All good things.
Check out the link I posted above, It goes into much more detail
BTW The head above (P90) is just roughed out. Once the head is surfaced, and all of the valve guides and seat installed, it will be put back in the CNC machine and cut to its final depth with a much finer step-over
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OTM,
Have you ever seen the heads I modified?
Here is what I currently run a N-42 welded for max quench with 36cc chambers. On a 1mm over 240 lower end with flat tops .015 out the deck with a comp gasket. Runs great on 91 octane all day
Here is a picture of my next head (P-90), not finished yet. I took it to the next level with welding up the chambers, ports, and plug holes. Made a CAD model for the CNC to cut them out all the same. High quench, lots of swirl. I will be doing as 1 fast Z states, in the fact the piston will mirror the head. I will be using this on my 280 turbo project.
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Maybe some have you have read this http://www.theoldone.com/articles/The_Soft_Head_1999/
Good overview
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The AZC rear control arms used to be this way. At least a few years ago. I was told you had to run the style of camber plates like John C sells that dont require welding. After you installed the arms you would have to line up the camber plates as if you were tying to add more caster as in the front. This should eliminate the binding, because both top and bottom are now moved back.
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Have you seen this one? FP3582HTA Turbo
Not cheap but, it is supposed to spool better than a standard 35r
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Mmm, how thick is the plate? I figured you could punch all the features in the flat and bend it up.
Anyway, If I had a friend with a CNC I could use for cheap I would have done the same as you.
Justin
Hi Justin,
The plate is .250. Punching 4130 that thick will work but the coined edges are not so pretty. For high volume production that would be the ticket.
So what do you guys think about the urethane bushings? are they going to hold up, and do you think the set-up will be too stiff and noisy? I have a urethane filled stock mount now, and the gearbox rattles around pretty good at idle with cam I use. I could always put some rubber ones in there for the street?
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Wait you CNC'd the 4130 brace? Why not just have a sheet metal place bend it up for you?
Justin
Good Question - To bend up the bracket accurately (I'm a freak about that sort of stuff) I would have had to either laser cut or CNC the blank out of 4130 plate. Well a lot charge at the Laser Company is $175.00. And I only planned on making 1. Now the time to set up the bending, and screw a few up getting the spring back just right as well as the compensation of bend = lots of time and money, again for 1 pc. Now after bending it would have to be fixture and drilled for the cross bolt that pass through the bushings = more time. CNC is easy to set up, and can run unattended unlike a bender or all the driving around to the different shops. So long story short more material cost, but less overall labor time. Again for 1 pc. Now production I agree 100% with you, hence why the part looks like it does, because it was designed for production bending. Oh ya, and my friend own the CNC shop
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please educate, what is a 71c gearbox, and do I need one on my car?
edit... aha "fs5w71c" Right?
Yep, aka 240sx 5 speed conversion
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Hey All,
I just finished up making my new transmission mount for the 71c swap. I'm pretty pleased with the results, so I thought I would share some pictures. It looks like It is going to be plenty strong, and the new design for the urethane bushing should keep the trans pretty tight. Another benefit is the improved exhaust clearance. I will be running 3.5 inch tubing from the turbo back, not the pipe tucks way up above the floor, which is pretty tough to do on a 240 with its narrow tunnel.
So here are the specs:
71c trans
Engine moved back 3/4 of an inch just so the valve cover fits past the hood catch -(the 71c mounts sit about 1 inch further back and the engine is now 3/4 back so a total of 1.75 setback on the mount) You can see the bowed shape of the cross member to allow mounting in the factory screw holes.
6061 T-6 CNC machined cross member
4140 Chrome-moly steel CNC machined trans mount bracket
Urethane bushings from 73 up cross member
1/2-20 grade 8 hardware.
I think I will anodize the cross member black and powder coat the trans bracket black as well (nothing too flashy on my car)
Here are some pics of the CAD models as well as the finished parts. Click on the pics for a larger view from my picture gallery.
Thanks Jeff
I like the way it tucks up behind the tranny case
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What if you just moved the first diverter forward a bit so that it is pointing more towards the middle of the #1 runner? It looks like it's currently working in combination with the first bump to create the swirl around #1.
Already finished moving the diverter forward to the middle. Looks like it will stop the vortex from going counter-clockwise, and help it flow more linear. Good idea
Jeff
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All right. the answers are in. Looks like an improvement in reducing 2 of the 3 vortices. The flow looks to be more even through the runners. The flow diverters seem to better even up the distribution of air. The bumps in the top seemed helped runners 2-6 with the vortices, but the first bump seem to be helping create the vortex in runner 1. So anybody want to post some sketches on there ideas to help get this thing perfect? Here are the results:
Some new videos:
http://album.hybridz.org/data/500/velocity_test9a_rev4.avi
http://album.hybridz.org/data/500/velocity_test9b_rev4.avi
http://album.hybridz.org/data/500/velocity_test9c_rev4.avi
Thanks again for everybody's help.
Jeff
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I'll be finishing the flow results tonight for Monzter.
tbs
All right!! a new update coming soon. Anybody want to guess if the new plenum design with the flow diverters and bumps is better or worse for the swirl and distribution of air?? I'm obviously hoping for better, but how much is my question?
Thanks TBS
Jeff
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I think I have another oddball head. It is brand new and never been run. It was a nissam OEM replacement part, but for what I have no idea. It is a N-33. The combustion chambers are a wedge shape and it has a small exhaust valve with a large intake. The exhaust ports are square and there is no injector cuts in the intake. It is also only drilled for the 6 bolt intake. Any ideas?
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I am thinking something like this. I have asked TurboBlueStreak to have a look at it and hopefully we can get some new results. I am hoping the diverters will even out the flow, slowing down some of the turbulence. The bumps at the top I am hoping will stop the flow from cycling around and around. Well see?
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I have 2 72 Z's
names - white car and black car
original eh
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Here are some pics for your reference.
A 'Nissan Racing School' car, showing a left hand rear Overfender installed. That's a 10j x 14 wheel underneath it:
Some comparison shots of a genuine factory ZG Overfender and a genuine Sports Option 432R Overfender - both are right-hand side front fitting. The 432R Overfender is significantly wider:
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and hope that you didn't think that through fully before you wrote it. It's a simple matter of economics......
The main factor is the pure cost to have a professional race fabrication shop make proper moulds from the originals, and then make some high quality mouldings from them which are at least as good as the originals. There's a very good chance that my originals will be in some way degraded or even damaged beyond repair in this process. The shops that I have shown these to have all commented on the high quality of the originals and their complex shape ( esp. at the ends ), so these are a far harder proposition to replicate than you might believe.
Second factor is that you are obviously thinking purely in $US, and the eBay auction end price to you may have seemed high. However, if you convert that into £GBP - which is what I earn and spend here in the UK ) it looks cheaper to me - one British Pound Sterling is equal to roughly two US Dollars at the moment ), and the cost of making replicas here in the UK is going to look twice as expensive to you. According to the costings and quotations I have at the moment, it looks as though I might be making three or four sets of replicas - possibly losing value on my rare originals as a result - and selling them at a price that actually leaves me less than breaking even on the total cost.
Shame on me? I don't think so my friend.
Alan T.
Thanks for the info and pictures. I really like the look of the 432r parts.
I can tell from the level of detail and knowledge in all of your post that the parts you manufacture will be the best of quality and accuracy. I see that as value. I also understand the time effort and thus cost involved with reproducing parts like this. With that said can you PM me and let me know when the parts will be available for sale and if you will be shipping them to the US.
Best Regards
Jeff
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Does anybody have pictures of a car with these installed? I would like to see the difference between these and the ZG flares
Turbo Intake Plenum
in Fuel Delivery
Posted
I was looking at the analysis of the pressure on the HKS and realized the pressure range on the chart was pretty wide. So I revised the scale and now look at it.. 20psi was put in, but there is more than that in the inlet neck and a big pressure spike at the inlet bends. Looks to me like this intake cannot flow this much air at this much pressure without backing up. Tony D - I think I remember hearing you say the high HP cars would port or cut away some part of the plenum??