Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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5 hg boost?
Dude, that's 2.5 psig...
Is that a typo, or what?
Fuel management is critical, blocing headgasketsand breakingrings is DETONATION and is the culprit of either to little fuel, or too much spark advance at a point on the curve. Or both.
A turbo's fuel requirements are almost independent of rpm! It is a varaible flow engine, so unless you have a non-linear AFM that meters above 3500 when theturbo is kicking in, you can not properly manage the fuel delivery needs of the engine!
A RRFPR is basically turning your EFI into a BAD carburettor. For that effort, buy triple solexes, build a surge box, and be prepared for FAR MORE power than you will get using stock N/A electronics on that turbo!
In the end, with the advent of the Megasquirt, there really is no reason to screw around with stock electronics whatsoever. The cost of the RRFPR and the time you spend trimming it will not get you the results you will get with the Megasquirt and some basic tuning of the fuel maps.
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What about getting a fluttering sound WITH a BOV? I'm running a DSM BOV' date=' and I've verified that it works by putting my finger on the valve and feeling it open and close as I attach and remove the vacuum hose with the engine running. It's installed on the pipe between the I/C and the throttle body. So I SHOULDN"T be getting compressor surge.
Funny thing is, I don't remember ever hearing it make that flutter sound until after I installed the I/C and turned up the boost. It doesn't always do it either, sometimes I get the more usual pssssssssh sound, but sometimes if I get on it briefly, hit full boost and then let off again rapidly I get that fluttery sound.[/quote']
Read my post above detailing the volume issue. In a centrifugal compressor, the VOLUME of air a vavle can release is JUST as important as the fact that you ae dropping the pressure.
If you take a graph, and on the lefthand side, draw the line straight up, and call it a "pressure" axis, then on the botton, from origin draw the line to the right calling it "flow" you realize when you dump throttle, your point of work on the turbo goes INSTANTANEOUSLY both UP (rising pressure) and to the LEFT (lowering flow) making the compressor cross a diagonal line drawn from origin up at an angle designated as a "surge line". This is when a compressor surges. (Surge can also be said to be the REVERSE FLOW of air thorugh a centrifugal compressor)
The higher up you operate on the Vertical axis (pressure), the more important the ability of the valves FLOW capacity comes into play. When you lift throttle EVEN SLIGHTLY the ability of the blowoff valve to keep a minimuim flowrate through the compressor and keep that operating point to the RIGHT of the surge line becomes more critical. When you TOTALLY lift the throttle, that operating point of the turbo goes STRAIGHT UP immediately while the valve reacts, unless you duct the diaphragm to ASSIST the BOV in opening quickly it lags behind the flow requirements ofthe turbo, and the result is intermittent surge.
Basically you are above the flow characteristic of the valve, that is why you are getting surge flutter some times, but not others.
I am now in the third week of hand in hand programming of a Modicon PLC to control the surge characteristics of a 2500 HP Centrifigual Machine, and the programmer is trying to TOTALLY control via a bypass valve blowing to atmosphere ONLY. I am trying to make her understand that throttleing the INLET of the turbo allows the control PID Loops to be set FAR more stable so they are not blowing $10,000 of electricity to the atmosphere in the form of compressed air every time there is a minimal process upset.
But they bought this PLC for only $3000, and that was FAR CHEAPER than our dedicated Compressor Control System with SIX different control loops, depending on the operating state of the compressor....
I digress.
Hope that made sense!
LOL
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Actually, with the slotted cam timing sensor, I don't see what the problem would be going to MS-n-EDIS.
Failing that, converting any of a number of Distributors to be driven off the cam angle sensor would be straightforward and then allow convetnional single coil usage with conventional plug wires.
Didn't some earlier Non-US versions of the SR come with a distributor? That would also be an option.
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Far be it form me to jump into a fray like this...
But my understanding on the development of this product involved stroboscope observation of the TIGHT SIDE chain action.
With their components installed, the observed deflection of the tight side of the chain at times was noticably reduced, as well as action over the formerly "slack side" portion.
Watching a camshaft jump relative position advanced/retard due to throttle position changes is relatively disconcerting, and that is MY understanding on what prompted this development project.
It is my understanding that after installation of these components the said deflection from timing in the cam was noticably reduced.
Like some have said, while it may not be an "ideal" solution, it is one that in the practical application showed a marked positive effect on solvingthe problem they were attempting to address.
In the end, that is really what is important.
While draining the reservoir of water, and cutting out the leaking portion of the dam is the "proper" way to fix the leak from an Engineering Standpoint, dumping dirt down the backside ot the dam till it covers the hole also performs the same function...
I don't use that example in any way to equate Kamearis' solution to the problem they discovered, only to illustrate that there may be more than one way to approach something, and BOTH will work.
To Alan, I address the question: Is this your understanding on how it was developed, or was someone blowing smoke up my posterior? I now recline to nibble on my Dragonfruit.
BTW, it is my understanding someone has one of those kits and is trying to replicate it stateside. I DON'T have any knowledge of it beyond that, so you all will have to do your OWN research work. I have no problem with the price, nor buyying direct from Japan should it tickle my fancy to posess one of these units.
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"Automotive" pistons are generally made of Aluminum, cast or forged. Forged has a denser structure and is suitable for the loads from higher revs. Generally, if you are turbocharging an engine, you don't put the loads in tension that higher revving does, so you can survive with cast pistons. They are far more resistant in compression than tension. BUT if you go crazy with compressive forces, then by all means run forged, as they add a margin of safety, as well as having a higher rev limit. Generally, cast pistons are said to be useful below 7000 rpms, which is where most turbo engines make their power. But above that, and cast pistons don't hold up as long as forged units do. It's not heat so much that causes failures, but detonation! Boom, and forged or cast, things break!
On the "All" comment...
Not "All" pistons, however are made of aluminum. One trip to industrial repair houses will confirm that. Many larger engines use cast iron, and various other alloys other than aluminum, as they are not high revving, nor is weight a consideration in their manufacture, Durability and Longevity are their main focus. In these applications, cylinder bores are made replaceable, and it's not uncommon for many sets of liners to be replaced while the original piston simply gets re-ringed. It's a different world!
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Carbon Supression Wires. I know the Tec2 System specifically recomends Packard Supression wires, and also says to treat wires as a consummable item. Thus Far they have been correct.
I am suprised by how long recently purchased items seem to last, while the JDM Fat 8mm Supression wires I have on my 73 ZX(T) have been on there since 1989 and they are still working FINE at 17psi!
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not all P90A's are hydraulic!
Check before condemning a junkyard canidate, the hydraulics have a nice smooth barrel instead of the adjusting nuts at the pivot end of the rocker arm.
Of 6 Turbos in the junkyard in the past four months, only one was a Hydraulic P90A, all the rest were mechanical P90A's. Makes you wonder exactly when in 83 they went "hydraulic" as some of these cars were 83's!
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VCV is designed for stock inlet volume, and stock pressures.
You have upped the pressures and more than likely at least DOUBLED the captive volume in the pressurized side of the intake system.
Either add a second VCV, or put a blowoff valve on the piping to dump pressure during drop-throttle.
I have used dual VCV's successfully to 17psi on the stock J-Pipe, but the pricing on decent BOV's is half what it was when I set that up... So there is no real reason to not get one.
Though the Dual VCV is a very stealthy, quiet setup (as is a BOV if you pipe it properly!)
I like quiet, stealthy cars...
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"FACTORY GAP"!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
I don't believe in "factory gap" and the fallacy that one exists has been proven every time I open a new set of plugs! NOTHING goes into the engine without being checked physically and verified at LEAST!
But back to the question, I agree with Thumper, for lower boost you should be fine at .040 or thereabouts. I am at .043 with no misfire problems at 17psi. I do have problems with WIRES though! They are replaced regularly. When that happens, the misfires go away. Really kills me, too! They usually "look" great, but when Ohmed, have broken down internally. Carbon Fiber supression wires, BTW.
To recoup my plug wire expenditures, I save them all, put them in a box, and let my wife put them out during her yard sale. Serves a purpose: makes her think I am "selling off some of that car crap lying all around here" therefore preserving my hobby status at home! LOL
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I have signed a confidentiality agreement regarding something in the last post.
Please open your minds about the air spring and think how you could harness that to your advantage...
The patent should be up for sale soon...
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L20ET and L28ET are mechanically identical in all boltup and exchange dimensions.
The only differences are internal and fuel related.
Trannies are the same as N/A L28's. I have an L20ET Transmission from an 84 Skyline Turbo in my 73 240Z with an L28ET right now! They are identical to the other five speeds in the comparable N/A L-Powered car of larger displacement.
The L20ET should have a mechanical pressure retard on it, as opposed to the ECCS system used on L28ET's in the USA. I know the Euro units are set up like that, but can't remember the L20ET setup.
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Check out Lance Nist's webiste from Pantera Specialists.
The controller he uses is also capable of driving electrohydraulic valve actuators.
Yeah, that's right, no camshaft...
If you want to go into some REAL neat stuff, Lance is the guy you want to talk to... Wish I had a link right handy, but the EFI system he sells can be combined with another ECU and you can have electrohydraulic valve actuation, and totally sequential fuel and spark control...
"Cam Profile" totally programmable for throttle position, rpm, acceleration rate.... Muahahahahaha!
How's that for complex engineering options. I think you will like what you have to see there!
"Lance Nist, Pantera Specialists, Santa Ana California"
Should work on a Google...
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It really depends on how old they are.
Originally SK (Sangyo Kiki) stuck their stickers and a red aluminm cover over the top of the Mikuini Solex PHH Jet cover, and called them "An SK Carburettor"
Later, they came out with a Weber Knockoff, and later still the "integrated" unit with features from both units.
If they are really old (pre 1985) they will simply be Mikuini PHH's, after that point, they could be the Weber Knockoff (looked like a Weber, but had brass floats...)
After a lawsuit, they came out again as OER (there was a time in Japan they were dual branded SK/OER), which is the Hybrid Design.
They were on Display at the MSA show. Nice to see a carburettor offerring for the old school traditionalists. But for the limmited run, they won't ocme down in cost, making the EFI setups much more attractive, especially with the Advent of Megasquirt!
I mean, TWM throttle bodies are around $350... So an E-Bay Manifold, a Megasquirt, and Viola!
No jets, no density change problems, NO JETS!
LOL
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i dont have any experience with them, ..., i dont think theyve been around long enough to get enough feedback from users...
Don't know about that, they have been available since the early 80's...
OER is now bering repped through some shops here inthe USA. They are a good carburettor, and the price is on par with what the competition charged for carburettors new...
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12V is where it goes. I used the injector power source on my relay box as the source for the 12V power.
The Vref source on the relay box is also a good point for the 5V source for the sensor.
Using the relay box, I was able to use the resistor leads for the pullup resistors from the aforementioned voltage sources without any problems at all.
Basically what you do is connect the B/W wire to the 12V source, and from that same 12V source, you attach the pullup resistor, and connect it to the TACH terminal, as well as connecting the G/B wire to the same TACH terminal. Mine used the first lug on the injector source power terminal block, B/W wire to the distributor and one leg of the 1000ohm resistor attached there, the other leg of the 1000ohm pullup resistor and the G/B wire attached to the TACH terminal on the relay board green terminal strip. The resistor was juuuuuust long enough. Were I to do it again, I would solder conventional wire to the ends of a resistor ,and then stick the WIRE into the terminal lugs, as the little resistor lead tended to fall out until I folded it over to give the terminal something to bite onto.
Similarly, you have a 5V Vref terminal on the relay box green terminal strip and that 1000 ohm resistor makes a nice jumper from there over to the FIDLE pin on the same terminal strip. I may have photos of that on the cardomain site. That FIDLE terminal also gets a wire that goes to the "G" terminal on the HEI module.
Hope you followed that!
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Nothing. It digressed.
To make it "Hybrid Qualified" I'll add that the next project after that 69 Monza Turbo Conversion was a Crown Corv-8 Conversion on a 65 Corsa 140! Used a Corvetter 327 in that thing.
Cop stopped by (small town) and wondered what the hell we were doing "trying to put that engine in through the passenger door?"
When he came up on the driveway and realized there was no back seat, and that we were trying to pilot the thing into a bellhousing he went and wrote down the license plate number on his notepad. Simply said "This will save some time, I bet..." and walked away muttering something about "Insane Kids"...
The V8 was easier than angle-milling the heads and the expense of sourching the Dual-Three Barrel IDA's! So that is a "dual triple" that came into the discussion. Back on topic now, I swear!
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The Auto Trans 240SX in a particular year range used a "Dual" TPS. It contained a Position Sensor on a pigtailed connector, and a Position Switch for the Transmission control computer. As I understand it, this was one year only, or maybe a series of years till the Engine and Transimssion ECU were made compatible, and could use the same signal.
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You had a Corvair?
I had a 66 Corsa 180hp... you know Turbo baby!
That's "Had" AND "Have" Back in 79 I spent months getting a turbo converted 69 Monza up to snuff, and back in 89 I bought my wife a 66 Corvair Corsa Turbo which is still around the yard today!
Back in 79, we were running 17psi and eating F-Bodies all over the State of Michigan! LOL
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SU's are simple any they work. There is a reason why Jags' date=' Lotus, Volvo, Datsun, etc. all used carbs of this design on their inline engines.
There is also a reason why every sportbike from day 1 until about 2000 used a variation of the SU design on their inline engines, before switching to EFI. (way after the automotive world) I won't get into the reasons they are pretty self-explanitory and many have allready been mentioned.
For balls out performance (which I assume you are after, spending the money to build yourself a stroker) it is hard to beat triple carbs on these engines.[/quote']
Actually, if you look closely, Ford had a VV design in the interim BETWEEN conventional carburetion and TBI.
And Honda I KNOW used an SU styled FEEDBACK variable venturi carburettor design. Saw it in the junkyard (dual SU's!) on the Accord I believe, and this was in the 80's.
I will say from hundreds of hours looking out the back window of a 69 Corvair with a Single SU Drawthrough Turbo Setup on it, that "tuning" of an SU's fuel delivery is far from easy if you alter from a factory R&D'd needle taper!
You start tapering your own needles, and playing with damper springs....
BLEYAH! Give me EFI any day!
Triple Two-Barrel EFI... Muahahahaha!
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These mystery leaks. Anyone running a fully-functioning PVC system?
My experience has been "nuisance leaks" increase when those little K&N filters start appearing on the valve cover...
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they go hand-in-hand.
The EGT is telling you when you have misfires.
If your AFR is right, and you are having misfires, then suspect the ignition.
If your AFR is wrong, you will see the EGT take a characteristic temperature.
On long full power runs like Bonneville, you will see a problem with your EGT almost immediately if you have a bad ignition wire, or plug, while the single AFR will let you know if your selection of jets was correct at 4700 feet altitude (with sometimes a density of 6000+ feet!)
Yeah, EFI is the way to go. I would skip carbs altogether if at all possible. With Megasquirt available, there really is no reason to fight a metered air leak to supply the engine with combustible mix...
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What I was trying to say about the misfires being more important than AFR is that when you are misfiring on one cylinder, you loose that fraction of HP.
While AFR may contribute to the misfire, if the cylinder is firing then the AFR is only loosing a fraction of the HP loss a misfire would.
Does that make sense? With a singe AFR channel on the tail pipe, and EGT on all cylinders you can tell once tuned if you are up or down on power simply by monitoring the alarm status on the EGT monitor.
In a small aircraft, being down 17% on power because of a single plug misfire may mean the difference between making it over the pass, and becoming part of the pass!
In Bonneville Competition seeing your cylinder temps come up to peak during the run means you are on full boil. We also have a simple AFR monitor, that we run in the "green"... If it changes, we lift. A cylinder going dead may not warrant a lift, but if it's preceeded by an AFR dip, may mean we lost an injector...
I digress...
LOLO
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Thanks for the AZ Z manifold. I was informed incorrectly then. it was told it had a simple plenum.
The MB manifold is separated longitudinally along the centerline of the car, but function should be similar. I wondered why the holley was mounted crossways (floatbowls left and right) instead of fore-and-aft. That makes more sense.
I would be interested to hook up the EGT and see what differences there were.
While EGT may be "stone age" in people with an unlimited R&D Budget, stationary engine operators routinely use EGT as the standard for monitoring engines. Anything more than a 25 degree separation is unacceptable, and sounds an alarm for attention. It is very accurate when it comes to diagnosing misfires, which are important for different reasons than AFR. If you have EGT and a single AFR monitor (five gas monitor is even better) you will learn a LOT about what your engine is doing during your run. During full throttle runs, the Clifford (the best one we tested) had 100 degree differences, and during partial throttle the differences was greater than 200 degrees! No matter how you look at it, that is waaay too rich. At least by the Single AFR probe we had in the tailpipe (so the misfires were diagnosed as rich misfires, jetting seemed to have little effect... So on to increasing velocity to stop dropout. That seemed to work)
We were more interested in finding if we could equalized temps and we did using the method mentioned. The manifold that bolted onto the original SU Manifolds was hideous in distribution! We didn't have the EGT setup when we tested the SU's, but that bolt-on-to-the-SU 4bbl manifold was down on power compared to the SU's from 3500 on up. As such we poopcanned the thing early on in testing and concentrated on the Clifford unit since it was $40, and the AZ Z was a bit more pricey.
As far as I know, Andy and I were the only people who have actually come forward with the results from tests we ran. Our conclusion was that the Clifford unit was able to be made to work, but only for a mild street engine below 6500rpms. Above that, the loss in HP was simply unacceptable.
Perhaps a larger engine would keep velocities up and draw the mix better, but it would have flow problems before the 6500 mark anyway...
In any case, I have never said the AZ Z manifold was tested by us, and I reserved judgement on it till I had one to test. I know it will be down on power compared to Webers or Mikuinis, or port EFI for that matter.
But now seeing the design in that photo and far more equal length runners drawing in a separated manifold gives me hope that it will perform at mid and lower throttle ranges far better than the previous offerings. Like in the other post, there are a lot of enthusiastic converts, but none of them have done any empirical testing. I probably don't blame them with the cost of gas and dyno time just to win some sort of argument. Really, Dave from AZ Z should step up and define the market for the manifold by showing testing he did. Anecdotal evidence is usless to anyone but salesmen. I would be swayed by hard dyno numbers, or even a "comparative curve" of performance gained by his system, similar to what Mikuini had for all their setups.
I believe the costs for a business would be a write-off as advertising expense. He could take a set to the MSA show one year and on that saturday run on the dyno in front of a crowd and by word of mouth alone pick up converts and shoot down us skeptics.
Testing is testing, marketing is marketing, many times the two rearely coincide with facts and figures.
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I scavenge TURBO indicators wherever I can get them. They are degreed to 30.
When I set up the engine, and am in the process of verifying TDC with the indicator on the piston top, I have ALWAYS aligned the marker I bolted onto the engine and a mark I MADE by filing into the pulley.
Sometimes the mark from the factory is close, other times not. Expecially on Chevy's and used pulleys meaning the elastomer is going out.
In either case, you can verify TDC with the head on through #1 spark plug hole, and mark YOUR pulley according to wherever your timing marker SHOULD BE.
Even with the old 240 style "Pin Marker" with a dial in advance timing light, you can still set whatever timing (initial or total) that you want using this method.
In some cases I have made a pointer out of welding rod and a piece of sheetmetal. It doesn't matter what indicator you use, it matters that the mark on the pulley is CORRECTLY ALIGNED.
Engine Controls for a N/A '77 280z Converted to Turbo?
in Turbo / Supercharger
Posted
Torrance, eh...
That's less than an unreasonable distance from my place.... LOL
Ask 1 Fast Z how the Megasquirt hacks into a stock EFI harness. I figure I could probably do the conversion in 2-3 hours using the stock stuff if I put my head to it.
But for the effort, I would simply make another harness, and go from there. It's not that hard, and easily done in a day (or a week after work sitting at the plywood building board laying out wires and terminations.)
BTW, Some have been using Megasquirt for over three years now. Some of the original group buy cars are another year beyond that! The latest push in recognition of that system has been because of some press it has gotten in the General Automotive Magazine Arena. Before that, it was just internet geeks and programmers that knew about it! LOL
In actuality, you can purchase all the components for the Megasquirt for about $65 when it all comes down to it...
The E-Bay assembled kits just make the project faster by about 5 hours of assembly time, and whatever time it took to source the stuff on your own.
What I'm getting at is it's still not too late to convert!