Tony D
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Posts posted by Tony D
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What would Norm's car have to have to run that 12.80 Sec 1/4 mile at 107mph?
I mean, that's with stock bored SU's... And pistons he "milled" using sandpaper on his driveway...
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we could have gone turbo for ALOT cheaper and made more HP as money want an issue on our z engine' date=' but turbos dont get me off one little bit and [b']i dont like fuel injection either for looks [/b]or performance even tho its easier to tune. i like making HP on the engine with carbs and run it on pump gas. we did just order a nitrous fogger setup to throw another 150-175 HP into it so that should be fun and get us into the 10's.
you can bet Tonyd knows his stuff in pretty much anything z related, but he hates strokers and carbs! LOL
Well, the "looks" of this setup sure looks shabby, huh?
And actually, this engine is DESTROKED so the .020" cylinder bore we did will stay within the CC limit of the class!
I don't dislike strokers, they are just hyped to such an extent it makes me laugh.
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Actually I will lay money we had a fraction of the $$$ outlaid for your stroker. It was built in a Garage attached to a house, and mostly from stuff ordered over the phone.
As for idle, it would idle reliably down to 400rpm which is a tick above "cranking speed" on the EFI we used.
In normal operation we set the idle to 900rpms. Had we a stock weight flywheel assembly (or even one of those heavy "lightweight" units sold for street usage) I suspect the idle would have gone lower. But having a 7" triple disc cluth that weighs 15 Pounds (clutch AND flywheel combined) doesn't lend itself to idling sowly.
The Weber45's we had idled around 15 to 1700 when warmed up. That was one reason to go EFI. The idle quality myths all disapear when you actually don't depend on airflow through a venturi to generate atomization and fuel mix at idle.
I was getting at the same thing JM is heading towards above: the stroker is really not the best bang for the buck. You would be WELL ADVISED to stick with a L28 bore and stroke, and spend money on induction and headwork. That is where the power is...the displacement you get really doesn't add that much HP at all, for all the hassle it is to get there. For all the hype, even in Japan, most guys stick in a VO7 Crank, but never go above 3 Litres because of the reliability issues from cylinder wall thickness. Like he said, cheap power will not come from boring the block and adding custom pistons.
The power in the L-Engine is, was, and always will be in the HEAD, and the induction system. You are well advised to stick with journeyman bottom end work, and standard competent preparation of the bottom end (you can do it at home, in your garage, with only a few trips to a competent machine shop), and save your money for a professional head rework of the ports, valves, etc....
You posted numbers, I posted numbers. Remember that the 315 number was with .080" scores in all six cylinders blowing by like crazy. We really don't know what the engine will ultimately produce until the L20A we have in the car blows up and we go BACK to the L28 for more runs on the dyno. A lot of people want to knock on our engine with the "lacks bottom end" commentary simply because of the numbers it made. Talk all you want, but when people see the torque curve from that engine on the dyno sheet, they realize quickly it is only a rearend change away from stock to get them RIGHT in the heart of the torque band for monster acceleration (for an N/A Engine, that is...) The torque curve is flat from about 3600, to well above 6000. It only moved up the scale slightly compared to a stock L28. But the top end of the graph.... it just keeps on climbing!
With the EFI, that 2.0 to 2.8 conversion is but a few keystrokes away, and we have that calibration right back in there, ready to hit load points on the dyno, and start tuning again...
No, this engine doesn't run on pump gas. But when you look at what you gain from compression, dropping back to flat top pistons and say a pump gas doable 10 or 10.5:1 ratio will not cost us appreciable power. The VW guys did that all the time: run 10:1 heads at the track, and after the run was over, swap the heads back to the 7:1 configuration for the drive home and around the commuting chores for the rest of the week.
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The CAS units on 81 through 83 are TOTALLY INTERCHANGABLE.
If the Z31 swap requires you to swap the Z31 CAS internals into the 280ZX Dizzy, then you aren't using an 82/83 Dizzy, are you? LOL
If it works with an 82.83 dizzy unmodified, then an 81 CAS PLUGS IN. They have the SAMe connector, and from my O-Scope testing give the EXACT SAME waveform!
If you have even taken an 81 CAS off it's adjustment bracket, you see it fits in a little bracket with (for this discussion) basically a large, oval hole in it sorts curved like a banana. The top and the bottom of the "banana hole" limit upward and downward travel of the CAS unit because on the back of the CAS is a little tang that fits inside the ajduster screw. If you grind the top or bottom of the "banana hole" you increase the travel in whatever direction you ground. This increases the advance able to be cranked into the CAS unit by the stock Adjusting screw. If you screw it all the way to the top of the existing hole, you get about 35 degrees advance. If you were to grind the top of the banana hole more, you would be allowed more advance. Follow?
The bracket the CAS mounts in has travel for about 80 degrees of ADVANCE adjustment from zero (TDC) but it is limited by the little "banana hole" piece. If you cut the top out of that piece, you can adjust the CAS up waay more than the stock limiter will allow, but still be on the main mounting bracket.
I may have photos from my last readjustment, I will have to look. If I do I will post them at cardomain and reference them here in this post.
Hope that made some sort of sense.
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Well, we had 315 to the wheels on a .040 L28...
We didn't need on stinkin' stroker...
Heck, 286 was the baseline for us after going TWM Induction 45's...
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GM 3.8L V-6's have very nice connectors, and fit the Bosch Connectors VERY tightly. I like them a lot, and they have supplanted the Volvo Connectors I have been using for years.
The Volvo Connectors have similar back boots, and have the "quick disconnect, press-to-release" wire bail on them, and fit nice and tight, also. They are black liek the stock connectors, and the boot on the back seems to be made of better rubber than the Nissan Pieces. The TPS and AFM connectors are also of similar design, but you may need to move the terminals around in the AFM one...
But for injectors, the Grey ones of the Buicks seem to work nicely for me now. At the cost of not looking stock.
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Same Here, Gen 1 RX7 Cooler. Plenty of Capacity, and nice rubber shock mounts if you care to adapt a bracket to them. I cut 'em off and used a fiberglass channel to mount mine on this car.
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It's a half and half proposition. I have run some without the pintile caps, and the spray pattern didn't seem affected at all. But on another brand of injector, cutting the pintile caps off to make them fit caused a TOTALLY different spray pattern (?!?!?!?!) so rig up a test jig and see what happens to yours when the cap is removed.
There are sources for replacements available, check online sources. Dunebuggies.com seemed to have an extensive listing of injector information.
The way I look at it, someone took the time to put it there, and if they could have cut the cost and improved profitability by omitting it, thye would have, so it must be there for a reason (I may not understand what it is, but nevertheless...)
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I'll second that! Make sure it is all clean and secure. Things vibrating loose and making intermittent contact are a problem also.
Next step, MEGASQUIRT!
Muahahaha! Call me "the devil" for putting the "temptation" out there!
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Wierd Reasons for the gear reduction starter. To be honest, the reason had to do with the starter drawing the voltage down too far causing glitching in the ECU.
The Reduction Starter allows for cranking when cold, with lots of accessories on, and still maintaining 9VDC for marginal operation of the electrical systems.
Little known fact...
Trivia from Keepers Of Odd Knowledge Society...
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he he he, at Inland Valley's First Car Show three or so years ago, they had an "introduction" Titan out for display. Myself and several others were out there with a tape measure and the salesman came up asking us what we were doing.
he about had a cow when we told him we were sizing it up for a swap into an early Z...
My thought on it as installed in the Titan, while narrow enough to fit, it is a TALL engine, and with the sump configuration would be almost impossible to do without reconfiguring that section of the engine.
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San Diego Valve and Fitting (or it may be Sand Diego Fluid Systems now) is the authorized Swagelock Dealer for your area. Orange Fluid Systems is a branch office down by Angels Stadium in Anaheim.
They have Metric Fittings....
If they are good enough for the Space Shuttle, and Los Alamos Testing Labs, they are good enough for low pressure fuel! They have a comprehensive line of fittings that will work properly on STEEL lines, as brass compression fittings will only be held on by friction, and are not designed for STEEL lines.
They can convert your line cut to a union, or to a barbed fitting for hose, or to a flexible stainless steel line with teflon lining, or even a 45 SAE of 37 JIC fitting!
Stock is in Brass, and Stainless Steel. You want Stainless, and if you want regular steel, they can get that overnight--but they may have some sizes in stock.
I use stainless steel almost exclusively, for the cost difference, what's the diff?
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Kopr-Kote in a spray can is how I installed mine.
They say dry because the Viton covering will adhere to the block finish or the head finish tearing it when you pull the head for the first time...
With the Kopr-Kote, it comes right off, no little rubber delamination to make you go "oh sh*t, another $231 down the drain!" (or whatever they go for now...)
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If you have the fittings on the bottom of hte carburettor USE THEM! They are for the fuel return to pass through ,and are there to prevent PERCOLATION. They are referred to in Mikuini Literature as "Cooling Bodies" and are optional equipment. They were used in MANY OEM applications of the Mikuini PHH (Celica DOHC's for example) to prevent what you are smelling: raw fuel (AKA: Evaporative Emissions!)
The carburettors WILL give off FAR MORE SMELL if you don't have an air box or good air cleaner assmelby on them. So will SU's for that matter!
But heat boiling the fuel will be GREATLY reduced by using the return line (they were designed to use a return line....) and letting the return flow cool the bottom of the bodies. This solved the stumbling and precolation that was happening in my friends 3.2 some years back---he had to retrofit them to his car, and was glad he did.
Also, if it's hot and you have a deadheaded system, the regulator will not bleed back pressure to the supply side, it invariably restricts the flow to control fuel pressure, so once shut off, the fuel rail will heatsoak, the pressure WILL rise, and the fuel in the rail will sink the floats and dump into the fuel bowl of the carburettor.
A proper fuel system with a return line or return line regulator will help with fuel pressur control, but I think your problem is those three things in concert:
No Air Box to contain vapors, percolation of the fuel in thebowl, and sinking floats after shutdown adding "more fuel to the fire" all together...
Getting an airbox, heat shield, and running the cooling bodies will reduce many of the ill effects you are experiencing now.
My Mikuinis on a blowthrough turbo setup never smelled like raw fuel. But when N/A with the ITG air Cleaner ther ewas a faint smell just like the SU's give when run without an aircleaner box. These older cars are captive emissions nightmares. After a hot run, you can have your eyes water from the fumes given off by the fuel system! BTW, have you checked you gas tank vent hoses for integrity lately? Smelling gas in the cabin may not be your carbs!
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Datsun Lover and Redneck offer sound advice...... What bears repeating....obtain the replacement 5 speed's throwout bearing if not also pressure plate (dowel hole difference) and (larger) clutch and flywheel if from a 2+2 model[/u'].. You should avoid the (T5) Borg Warner 5 speeds in the turbo zx s since it is a different length.
My advice would be to keep whatever throwout and pressure plate combination you have in your current transmission if it is servicable.
Personally I sap over to L28 Components on everything I have, but this thing about the throwout collar following the tranny is a dangerous myth. The throwout collar is mated to the pressure plate it is used with. The throwout arm geometry, pivot ball, and collar guide are all the same.
It's not the tranny that determines what throwout bearing collar you need to use, it's the diaphragm srping height on the pressure plate!
Check out the LD28, because of it's thicker flywheel, the collar (though it's a five speed of late manufacture) uses the early 240 collar with a later 280 style diaphragm! Confused? Maybe I shouldn't bring that up, but it bears repeating that the clutch cover you use is what has to have a compatible throwout bearing collar.
As long as you either use all the PP/TO components from the existing setup, or from the donor setup, you will do fine!
Start swapping things around, and you will pay a price in another tranny removal because the tranny either won't go INTO gear (collar too short for pressure plate) or wont move (collar too long for pressure plate)...
With that, you know know what to expect if you go wrong in the selection of mismatch components! LOL
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Bakelite sheeting also works fine, and it's a wood product...
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The stock CAS is only about 10 degrees shy of a simple "crank it and go" installation like the 82/83 setup.
Someone just has to take the time to pull the CAS off and figure out how much they have to grind from the bracket to allow that adjustment, and it will be far simpler than I did it.
But you will be limited to 40 or so total advance degrees. Just as a forewarning!
You don't have to pull the pulley, but it was the only way I could think to do it with a engineered exactitude. I knew the slots were X degrees apart, and pulling the pulley didn't seem like abig job to me.
If pulling the pulley seems like a big job to you, you need to SERIOUSLY reconsider ANY modification to the fuel system beyond the stock setup. ANY of the modifications you propose take FAR more than a simple drop swap n go kind of retrofit! They will all take effort.
Wether you want it on the front end in following directions and preparation, or the back end in aggravation and items detonating to oblivion, there WILL be aggravation and effort involved. I guess the big question for any system you install will ultimately be:
How FLEXIBLE will it be to suit your needs now, but MORE IMPORTANTLY: In the FUTURE?
Can you move it to any other vehicle you buy if an accident happens?
How well has it worked with other people's setups, and do they have proof or simply subjective commentary?
Is the cost for the system front ended or backended. That is, once you get teh ECU, how much time/money is blown getting it to FIT?
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Overkill in a massive way. Most of the sensor wires need be no larger than 20 gauge, and the injector wires are well within safety margin at 16 gauge, probably even 18.
Aircraft Spruce will sell you nice Tefzel Insulated MilSpec wiring reasonably, in about any gauge you want. They also have the SHIELDED wire in the smaller gauges we have suggested for the TPS and O2 sensor lead to keep noise from interfering with our harmonious EFI Squirting!
I believe I am using a 14 gauge power wire, though it might be 12! Been a while. I know it's Tefzel insulated, though! LOL
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Just follow my lead, and use the 81 components. It really works well now...
I had miscounted my advance teeth. After installing it correctly, all my maladies went away.
If you use an N/A distributor, you will have to lock the dizzy advance down so it can't do anything, then use the reluctor pickup to trigger another HEI module, or an MSD---seems like a lot of work when you already have all you need right there ready to plug n play...
If you are scared about modifying the timing disc, I haven't checked close enough on mine yet, but the stock CAS bracket might have juuuuuuuuust enough adjustability to get you the total advance you need if you take the CAS off and trim the mounting bracket to it lets the CAS move further "up" the bracket for a bit more advance. You only need about 10 more degrees than the stock bracket allows for, not really that much trimming involved!
I believe JeffP mentioned the Techedge WBO2 unit from Australia...
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I have mine mounted to the back of the relay box (under the board, actually) using the relay box for a heat sink, mounted to the body nameplate location just behind the strut tower, and have not had overheating problems as of yet.
Cheap modules seem to have more problems than the aftermarket units. Once I put the Perlux Flame Thrower in there, a lot of the spark issues (weak spark IMO) went away totally.
I carry a can of FREEZ-IT in every EFI car I have (even the 2000 Frontier!) because this will tell you IMMEDIATELY if it's heat related to a component. If it takes 20 mins with the hood up to restart, chances are good it's heat related. Drive around till it does it again, ZAP the component with a bath of FREEZ-IT and if you start right away, you determined the cause. Then determine WHY it's overheating (wrong location, inferior component, improper mounting/heatsinking) and you're through!
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Yes, and to answer the question that begs to be asked on our Bonneville 2-Litre "Why not just use an S20?" we would LOVE to do that, it can make the 320HP and give us the speed we need easily, unfortunately the rules for "production class" dictate that 500 examples of any given model used in competiton had to be available within a production year, and alas the 432 would not qualify. Otherwise THAT would be the direction we would go.
So as it stands, we wait to see what this does on the dyno, and hope the cam stays put for those runs at least. If the power is not there, it will be a short season in G-Pro... >:^(
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"Tony you yourself have had NUMEROUS headaches getting MS installed and running. MS has it's own forum for that very reason... yeah it's relatively cheap but it's a complicated system."
That really is not a fair comparison Bastaad. i was the first to use the system in MY application. Had I chosen to go the route Moby took, suing an 82/83 setup, it is a plug-n-play setup, no harder than any other system.
I was actually running within 15 mintues of starting the system when you look at it.
But having gone the route of the RRFPR, and Stock N/A electronics, I would NEVER do it again!
Same can be said for going with a blow-through triple carburetion system.
The difference between my comments and many here saying the MS is "hard" and holding my case out as an example is that GIVEN THE PATH I TOOK, I would STILL recommend the MS setup over ANY tweaking of the stock system.
Until you have actually HAD an adjustable fuel and spark delivery system on the car, and GOTTEN RID of the NUMEROUS HEADACHES common in "tweaked" setups, you can't begin to understand why we make the suggestions we do!
I would NEVER consider tweaking stock electronics now that MS is Viable, and TESTED with CLEAR instructions for the install.
And the reason MS has a forum here is to HELP the ininitiated SHARE our EXPERIENCE. Withthe commonality of questions about Tec2, Tec3, and SDS programming, should we all draw the conclusion they are also a "pain" to install?
It's all relative. MY case is unique because I may be gone for MONTHS at a time, with only a few hours or a couple of DAYS to work on my project. IN TOTAL my time expended on a never been attempted developmental workup on the MS really has been FAR less than the travails you have gone through screwing and tweaking the stock system! The difference between your work, and mine, is that you have been at it continually for three years (+?), whilst I have spent maybe a month time in total in three years working on my project---with a result that I can now go 0-4500 in fourth gear and back to 0 in WELL under 3/8 of a mile... With not much more time on the road than that. It runs well, and had I used the system everyone else used, it would have been up and running FAR sooner.
But then that group of people out there with 81ZXT's or 81ZXT-Based Engine swaps would never know what they needed to do to make the system work with the MSS setup.
So don't use my experiences of doing a first-time install. Even with ALL the problems I have had (95% of those BASED IN MY LAPTOP, and NOT the MS!) I would STILL recommend MS over tweaking a stock system.
For the cost, and the benefits, there really is no comparison!
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My blowthrough triples setup would "flutter" but that was a simple function of the intake manifold and it's strong pulses.
The flutter and surge sound completely different. My surge sounded like someone hitting a tin pan with a hammer rapidly in succession. But that was a max flow natural surge and not a throttled surge, which have two distincly different audible characteristics.
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"When testing the stock tensioner, Kameari saw some interesting things. One of the phenomena described to me was of a 'wave' effect of chain whip, much like the kind of wave that we used to send down a skipping rope when we were kids. It was explained to me that this 'wave' was observed running both ways up and down the chain as the test-bed engines were accelerated and decelerated, causing cam timing to advance and retard depending on where the forces were directed and where the chain slack was. Kameari had seen engines on their dyno fail because the cam timing was moving out of sync with the crank, and they believe that they solved this with the Twin Idler setup. The stock tensioner, when blueprinted and optimised, was doing fine up until the very highest levels of tune - and Kameari still sell, fit and use the stock type tensioners of course - but their most extreme engine specs needed some extra control of the chain.
I suspect that if the front cover on our highly tuned L-series engines was made from glass, some of us might be surprised and somewhat perturbed to see the effect of harmonics and other forces acting on our timing chains. Do you agree?"
Oh, for sure! That is the phenomenon that you have to observe through a variable-speed stroboscope. I believe they most likely had a transparent cover made to set up the stroboscobe and observe the cam chain. This is a very common test procedure.
I have someone who was concerned about timing variations install one in his engine, and depending on how it works, I may be using it in the Bonneville Racer we are building. The L20A will need to go to 9000 (right to the crank breaking torsional area) to make the HP we are hoping to make to break the record, so our concerns on cam timing have us looking at this device pretty closely. With our compression ratio (well above 14.5:1 being vague...) our vavle to piston clearances are extremely close, and any variation on the valvetrain will make it a short season in the G-Pro Class!
We have the spare L28 ready to go again---that engine had pressed-in piston pins WALK to the cylinder walls, something nobody we talked to ever saw before... And that engine was only running 8500 for five minutes at a stretch...
So there may be situations where conditions exist that this will help. I hope we won't need it, but given there are no practical alternatives, and it seems to be doing the job, it is the only viable alternative at this time!
The Japanese had 9 second Drag cars and 500+Hp Street L-Gatas for well over 20 years. I would say they are still at the pinnacle of R&D simply like the USA is at the Peak of R&D for a Small Block Chevrolet...
endless contemplation... some quick questions
in MegaSquirt
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B,
I thought I had taken photos last go on the last adjustment, but it was only of the CAS unit itself sitting on the fender.
Next time I go over to ianz's house, I will snap some photos of the adjustment bracket, which should make it very clear what has to be done without screwing with the trigger wheel.