Racer Z

Thanks Dan. I updated the OP to include your info. When I took off the door panels from our Z, I found that they included the felt strip necessary to keep the glass from banging into the steel. I removed the metal cowl from the wood panel as well as the vinyl. I used pop-rivets to secure this "cowl" back onto the door. Our Z lives outdoors and we need the glass still. The metal cowl with felt weighs 2.5 pound (pair). The complete door panel before I hacked it was 9 pounds for the pair. The door pulls and related hardware is another 2 pounds. That's a reduction of 8.5 pounds.

I started a new thread dedicated to the itemized list of weights and other methods of weight reductions for your S30. http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/98733-itemized-list-of-weights-for-the-purpose-of-weight-reduction/

In another thread ( http://forums.hybrid...tion-mods-240z/ ) we were talking about how to reduce the weight of a 240z. This subject comes up often enough that there should be a thread dedicated just to that with FACTS, not just hearsay and rumor. The basic concept it to do something, like buy fiberglass fenders for the purpose of lowering the weight of your car. But, how much weight saving do you actually get for your money and efforts? What are other methods of putting your Z on a diet? What did you do and what were the results? We need facts so we can better decide before we spend big money with small results. How much does the the stock steel fender weigh? How much does the fiberglass fender weigh? And, how much lighter is your wallet? In the case of non-stock items, such as fiberglass fenders, the more information the better. Who made them, what model number, how many layers of glass did they use... etc... For the bulk of this, I am using our 1973 240z that we are setting up as a race car (road racing). As we take parts off, I will weigh them and post it here. We have a beam type scale, incremented from 1/4 to 500 pounds. Bathroom scales work with heavier weights, like doors and fenders, but can't resolve small changes. Post you findings here and I will keep this table updated. Weight - Item name or description (stock OEM parts) Weight - Item name or description (after market in italics) Weight - Item name or description (bold denotes something of importance) (all weights are in US Pounds) 1972 240z 37.10 Hood 04.40 Cowl with Styrofoam pad intact 02.40 Center valence piece 01.10 Right and left valence pieces, each 13.00 Right and left fenders, each 23.30 Left door, bare. No glass, window frame, door latch, mechanisms, hinges, nothing except the bare shell 09.70 Left door glass with the metal brace that bolts to the bottom of it, nothing more 02.60 Left door window regulator 03.50 Left door window frame w/ felt strips 19.20 Rear hatch, bare. No glass, weather stripping, rubber, latch, lock or emblems 02.50 Right and left headlight buckets, metal, each 03.00 Right headlight bucket, original FRP style. Yes, they are heavier than the metal ones. 00.60 Gas filler flap, metal 01.00 Engine bay inspection covers, each 02.40 Grille, 240Z style 01.10 Taillight finishers, each 07.30 Front bumper, completely bare 01.10 Bumper mount brackets, each 00.50 Bumper overrides, each 00.45 Bumper rubber strips, each 04.00 Interior vinyl kit (from MSA) includes center console, luggage riser, wheel housings and shock towers with cardboard shock tower pieces. Does not include door sills, headliner or a-pillar trim. 1973 240z 07.50 Wiper motor, linkage and blades 23.50 Heater system, blower, core, plenums, ducts 02.00 Parking brake lever, pivot pin, rod (cabin half) 20.25 Dash with defrost trim, no meters, wires or switches 04.50 Center console with choke lever and cables 08.75 Interior parts - plastic covers, rear sides, taillight cores, dome light, kick panels, boomerang panels, etc. 16.25 Momo Corsa racing seat with Datsun adjuster (32.5 pair) 35.00 Original seat with adjuster (70 pair) 01.75 Carpet under seats. Most of the carpet was missing or got sucked up in the vacuum prior to this, so I can't weight all of it. 05.12 Interior vinyl from strut towers, door sills, trans-tunnel (headliner still in car) 16.50 Front bumper w/override bar 01.50 Wiring removed from rear harness (we removed the unused wires and put the rest back) 02.50 Whole rear harness before mod 13.25 Tool kit, jack chalks, jack handle, lug wrench, bag 02.25 Door seals (both sides) this is just the rubber outer seal 00.25 Shifter boot and flange 12.87 Tar paper floor & firewall insulation 04.62 Fiber mat Insulation/padding (incomplete when we bought the car) 04.25 Stock steering wheel w/horn pad 03.00 "Racing" steering wheel - "Personal" is stamped in the aluminum finger, took it off an old truck haha 04.50 Headliner & foam, sun visors and rear view mirror mount (no mirror). This includes the vinyl on the A-Pillars. 09.00 Door panels (pair) 02.00 Door pulls and related hardware (both doors) 320.00 Engine L24, no intake, exhaust, flywheel, cooling fan; all covers in place (rocker, oil pan, etc); water pump, alternator, oil pump in place 75.00 Transmission 4-speed 12.00 Alternator 59.25 R180 differential; 3.364 gears; dry 22.75 Flywheel (stock, 1973) 12.75 Pressure plate (stock, 1973) 02.00 Clutch disk (oem type, 1973) 1978 280z 65.00 Entire RHS door (bathroom scale) Year & Model Uncertain (not that it matters much) 70.50 R200 with 3.9 gears; dry After Market Parts 09.50 Fiberglass front fender "SubtleZ" by Reaction Research 01.31 Stock replacement fiberglass headlight buckets by Reaction Research 01.37 "filled" style fiberglass headlight bucket by Reaction Research 11.00 Reaction Research Notes: bathroom scale 05.00 Rear quarter panels "SubtleZ" by Reaction Research (weight confirmation needed) 03.00 Headlight bucket, original FRP style. Yes, they are heavier than the metal ones. 12.00 Momo Corsa racing seat without adjuster (these might be ten years old) 03.00 "Racing" steering wheel - "Personal" is stamped in the aluminum finger 02.50 Fiberglass interior door panels by Hybrid Z vendor (Rayven14) (With user modified tweeter hole and built up material) 12.00 Dash from 1990 240sx dash (with vents, but without gauges, wires) 14.00 Headers, 6 into 2, 1 5/8" primaries, unknown brand 35.00 Autopower 4-point roll bar (SCCA type) 01.75 Wink mirror 5 panels 30.75 ATL SP112 12 gallon fuel cell 03.00 - Headlight bucket, original FRP style. Yes, they are heavier than the metal ones. 12.00 - Momo Corsa racing seat without adjuster (these might be ten years old) 03.00 - "Racing" steering wheel - "Personal" is stamped in the aluminum finger 02.50 - Fiberglass interior door panels by Hybrid Z vendor (Rayven14) (With user modified tweeter hole and built up material) 12.00 - Dash from 1990 240sx dash (with vents, but without gauges, wires)

Door panels: 9 Lbs (pair) Door pulls and related hardware: 2 Lbs (both doors)

We've been road racing our 240z with the stock tank and no problems. We can get down to about two gallons without starving in the turns. So far, we have not found the need for a surge tank or a sump. We will eventually move into a fuel cell because of VARA rules. A new VARA legal fuel cell is around $800.

I was thinking the same thing. Don't know how to sticky it. I guess a moderator would need to do that.

From 73 240z: 4.5 pounds Headliner & foam, sun visors and rear view mirror mount (no mirror). This includes the vinyl on the A-Pillars.

Motivational Mike - It was nice to meet you and your son as well as chit-chat about racing stuff. I hope the springs work out as planned. Bob

Did you check the engine oil and radiator for signs of milkshake? (oil mixing with water)

Plan for the worst, hope for the best. A new motor may be in order. If it's high mileage, don't waste your time or money on a band-aid.

Ha. We also have a set we took of our 73 240. Cheap seems to be an operative word. The Valley is where they are and I will be there this Sunday if you want to make the drive. PM me if interested and we can discuss a cheap price. Springs only, all four.

Good call. And that makes me think about rough, uneven roads where wide tires will have a hard time finding a full footprint. It ends up being a compromise. At some point the extra width becomes unusable. Not every car or driver needs the same width.

Are wider tires better? Not always. More unsprung weight. More rolling resistance. More wind resistance. More moving (spinning) mass to wind up as you try to accelerate. More moving (spinning) mass to slow down as you try to brake. More money to spend when they wear out.

I have read this entire thread and found interesting as well as empty. (no pun intended) By empty, I mean you guys have not listed any facts. You talk about things like removing the steel fenders and replacing them with fiberglass, in order to save weight. But, you have not told me how much the old fenders weighs, how much the new fenders weighs, how much weight you actually saved nor how light your wallet is now. Yes, one of you did mention that a stock steel fender weighs 11 Lbs each with no mention of the fiberglass replacement weight. Fiberglass is not as light as we are lead to believe. It's a big expense, especially if it only saves 1 Lbs per fender. We are in the process of gutting our 240Z. We saved all the stuff we pulled out and weighed it, in an itemized fashion. We effectively removed 120 Lbs. The big ticket items were the heater unit and the wiper mechanism. The tar on the floor was not nearly as heavy as I had been expecting. We weighed our Dash at about 25 Lbs. I mention this because I had seen an add for a fiberglass dash claiming I can save 30++ pounds. How can I save 30 pounds when the stock dash is already less than 30 pounds? The stock seats are about 30-35 Lbs each with adjuster rails. That's light compared to some cars that have 50 Lbs seats. Our racing seats weighed in at 12 pounds each, before adding the Datsun adjuster rail. With the rail we only saved 10 pounds per seat. But we gained something even more important, proper belt placement and lateral support. Swiss cheesing the car might look cool on a show car, but it looks mighty weak on a track car. The repeated forces will find a place to flex and crack. My itemized list of weights. Some will items will be going back in or on. This is from a 73 240z. Weight - Item name or description 7.5 - Wiper motor, linkage and blades 23.5 - Heater system, blower, core, plenums, ducts 2.0 - Parking brake lever, pivot pin, rod (cabin half) 20.25 - Dash with defrost trim, no meters, wires or switches 4.5 - Center console with choke lever and cables 35.0 - Original seat with adjuster (each, 70 pair) 16.25 - Momo Corsa racing seat with Datsun adjuster (each, 32.5 pair) 8.75 - Interior parts - plastic covers, rear sides, taillight cores, dome light, kick panels, boomerang panels, ect. 1.75 - Carpet under seats. Most of the carpet was missing or got sucked up in the vacuum prior to this, so I can't weight all of it. 5.125 - Interior vinyl from strut towers, door sills, trans-tunnel (headliner still in car) 16.5 - Front bumper w/override bar 1.5 - Wiring removed from rear harness (we removed the unused wires and put the rest back) 2.5 - Whole rear harness before mod 13.25 - Tool kit, jack chalks, jack handle, lug wrench, bag 2.25 - Door seals (both sides) this is just the rubber outer seal 0.25 - Shifter boot and flange 12.875 - Tar paper 4.625 - Insulation/padding (incomplete when we bought the car) 4.25 - Stock steering wheel w/horn pad 3.0 - "Racing" steering wheel - "Personal" is stamped in the aluminum finger, took it off an old truck haha 120 - Effective weight loss. Some of this will be going back in. Most went straight into the garbage.

I will. Other things came up and had to postpone buying tires.

Yeah it does sound nice doesn't it. We've got a 6 into 2 header waiting to go. Soon we will have new dual exhaust (twice pipes) and dual mufflers (Cherry Bombs). I can only imagine that it will sound even better then.

I've seen those before. They look like a good thing to help cool the pads and calipers. To expensive though.

All carburetors look complex. If you want a simple carb you will end up with a lawn mower style carb. But this is Hybrid Z so Briggs & Stratton will fit right in. For simplicity, a single carb is the way to go. We have a set of round-tops on our Z. We got them used, bolted them on and adjusted them. They seem to be working fine. Have been using them almost two years now without a problem. But we want performance and will be changing over to a set of Dell'Orto's soon. The truth is that even the round-tops offer a lot of performance. I've seen a few Z's out on the track doing quite well with stock carbs. Nissan (Datsun) chose their stock carburettors well. You can find the same round-top on many cars including Jaguar.

There is nothing wrong with the Hitashi (SU) carburettors. They are good carbs. The DGV's you have are good carbs to, but I can't stand the converter used to adapt them. That's my 2 cents.

John, I am not familiar with SVRA or HSR. I was speaking of cost for SCCA run cars back in the day. Be it big teams like BRE and Bob Sharp, or small unknowns, the 240z proved itself as a track worthy car capable taking on cars with impressive names and even more impressive prices. The SCCA CP class of that day, as does the VARA CP class of today, dictate that the correct block, crank and head be used for the year make and model of car including stock bore and stroke.

The 240z sold new for about $2500. The Porsche for considerable more. Both cars had mods done. In the end, the Porsche's of the day had a modified price tag of $50,000 while the 240z was closer to $20,000. The Porsche drivers were pissed. With all their prestige and money, they were all loosing to this inexpensive car with no class. The rules of the SCCA class stated that they had to use the original block, crank and heads. They could not change the bore and stroke. The 240z dominated EVERYTHING in it's class.

We went to Willow Spring Raceway about six months ago to watch the VARA races. There were all kinds of cars from the late 60's early 70's, all set up like they would have been to run a SCCA event of their time. When I got over to the hot-pits, the cars were gridded up, engines off, waiting for the track to clear. In position 2 was a 240z followed by all the other cars you would expect to see if you traveled back in time. This included a handful of of 240z's as well. When the track cleared and they started their engines, I sure thought the off-pole 240z had a V-8 in it. It was load and lumpy. When they came around from the warm-up lap and got the green flag, the 240z sound like a top-fueler, and took off like one two. I timed her (yes I later learned a lady was driving) at 1:35 laps. I've driven WSIR enough times, and watched enough newer faster cars run WSIR to know that 1:35 is a very respectful lap time. Just for a comparison, we turned a 1:50 in our stock 240z with street tires. The track record is 1:12 set by Mario Andretti in his Indy Car. She was screaming and there were only two other cars that could even think about touching her. She cam in a close second with 3'rd quite a ways behind. I think she lost to a Porsche, but I don't recall now. Later, in the pits, we stopped by their pits and got to look at her car with the hood up. I wanted to see this V-8 powered Datsun. What V-8??? It was a straight six!!! No turbo! L24, L26, L28 or a 3.1 stroker I don't know, but it looked like the L24 in our 240z. I didn't ask any questions, I just gawked and drooled. She was in the GPU class which is the unlimited class, meaning she had done something that put her above the CP class. Carbs and headers is all I could see. No doubt there was big cam in it. After watching her, and the other 240z's run, most with the L24 block, NONE with an engine swap, (I don't consider the L28 to be an engine swap because it bolts in and does not obviously look different), I am convinced that with better driving skills I too can put a lot of other cars to shame with a seemingly stock 240z.

Sorry. $50,000 including mods.

When me and my brother decided to start road racing, we bought a Datsun 240z. We wanted a car with good track potential that wouldn't break the bank. We looked at a lot of cars, including non-240z's before I found the one I had to have. It had been garaged for the last tens years and only ran on starting fluid, but, it had never been wrecked or modified and had NO RUST. And we got it for a lot less than some heaps I had seen. After we got it home we started doing more research on the history of the 240z. The Datsun 240z dominated it's class in the 70's. In it's SCCA class, it was up against BMW, Alfa Romeo, Porsche, and other well respected sports cars. The 240z beat them all. The $2500 240z was eating $50,000 Porsche's. Yes it had some mods done to it, but so had all the other cars it was up against. Watch the video for some sweet history. It is about 30 minutes long and is high enough quality that you can watch in full screen.

Our stock 240z has 51% of the weight on the front. I know that because we paid to have it weighted for corner weights. It is also within 30 pounds on the diagonal weights. And that is stock without us adjusting anything. I have not done any auto-cross driving, I am into road racing (on a track). For auto-crossing you would be better off with a motor that provides good low-end torque. The stock N/A L24 has that torque. Adding a turbo takes away from that nice low end torque. I assume that a small 4-banger will not have the low-end torque of the bigger L24. When you do get a 240z, drive it for a while before you make the decision to loose a good and proven motor. The L24 can be built to provide 250 HP. In a car that can be lightened to 2200 pounds or so, 250 HP is a lot of power-to-weight ratio.