Cannonball89 Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) I am really starting to hate my Wideband, an Innovate LC-1. It will work sometimes, then for no reason whatsoever, it will not produce an output to my Megasquirt. I have done the heater calibration and the open air calibration several times, and it seems to work right after I do that. Then If I turn the car off and turn it back on again, no output to MS. What I see when turning the key on is that it will register 7:1 AFR (which = 0V) when warming up the sensor, then after sensor warm up is complete it will go to 22:1 AFR (which = 5V). Now sometimes once the engine is running it will show the actual AFR, then other times it will stay at 22:1 and its like it doesn't know the engine is running. It is so random and frustrating. I want to start tuning my car but there is no way I can trust this LC-1 to give me reliable readings when it only seems to work intermittently. And I really don't want to use the VE analyze/autotune feature with it because it is hard to say what it might do to my VE table if it goes to a steady 5V output and MS thinks the AFR is 22:1!. I have checked my wiring numerous times, the grounds are good, grounded to the same point on the engine block that the rest of my MS components are grounded to. I have made sure that I have MS hooked up to the 0V-5V output wire and not the narrowband simulation wire. I have also hooked up the LED to see if there are any trouble codes, and the LED indicates that there are no problems whatsoever, even when it is sending a steady 5V output! Basically I am about ready to through this thing out and buy an AEM or Greddy or something like that. I have been reading on other forums about Innovate LC-1's and the general consensus is that they are garbage, and AEM makes a much better product. What are you guys using? Any advice or recommendations? Edited May 25, 2011 by Cannonball89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 Weird, I have been using the LC1s on a few different cars for years. There are two outputs if I remember. A yellow and a brown wire. I always hook one to my gauge and one to megasquirt. I think I always put the resistor in line to the megasquirt. Then open the LC1 software and program the outputs to be what I want. The only problem that I have heard of from my friend is that his O2 sensor goes out about once a year, but he has it mounted low in the pipe so I think it gets water built up in it. I'm not sure about the quality of the LC1 but it has worked fine for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonball89 Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 What are the specs on the resistor you installed inline on the o2 input to the megasquirt? I don't know if it would make any difference but I will try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Here is some info from an old post by Matt Cramer: The resistor was there to protect the circuits on the older ones - if you have a new LC-1 (the one with the "dark thunderstorm" box), you won't need it. BTW, the resistor value was 470 ohm 1/4 watt Sounds like the resistor has not been needed for a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Wanted to follow up on this post since I have also had some new problems with LC-1s lately. Ran across this thread on the forum and I believe this is the issue: LC-1 does NOT like the electrical conditions that exist in a car during cranking. It is likely to "forget" its analog output programming, its free air calibration, will likely go into an error mode and could even be damaged (the sensor too!!). I've had several fail on me like that. I now power LC-1 via a relay that gets energized from the D+ output on the alternator. This means that LC-1 is only powered up once cranking has stopped and the engine has started and the alternator starts charging. I now find them to be quite reliable whereas before 1 in 2 would fail on me. To help solve this the LM-1 manual on the bottom of page 9 has instructions to install a relay that cuts power to the unit while the engine is being cranked. I spoke too early when I said out LC-1s were working OK, they are really having a lot of issues with losing settings and calibration during startup of the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 That seems odd. What are the conditions during cranking that could affect the unit? Is it low voltage, sometimes batteries can drop to 10V while cranking. Or is it poor combustion getting too much fuel on the sensor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 People claim it is the low voltage and possible spikes from the starter motor. Not sure myself, but I can say that I have witnessed 3 units on different installs that had problems. I don't have enough time on the "fix" to know if the problems are solved for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLOZ UP Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I had my Z31's LC1 installed so that it didn't get power during cranking. It was annoying because then I would have to wait for it to re-init before getting any readings, so I was tuning starts blind. I have it always on when the key is on or cranking now on my S30, but the sensors just dangling at the moment. about 10 starts and nothing wrong yet... and it's (will be) much nicer to have it available during cranking and right after starting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamH Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I've heard about some electrical noise issues when grounding your MS and LC1 in the same spot. I was having issues with my LC1 resetting and then never coming back (simply flashing its lowest value forever), and I regrounded separately from the MegaSquirt, and don't seem to be having the issue anymore, but I've only got maybe an hour of driving on it since moving the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannonball89 Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) I am running an AEM UEGO now. It works every time, no re-calibrations either. They may not be as accurate (according to some reviews I've read) but as long it is within a 1-2 tenths of an AFR it is close enough to tune with. I'll take reliability over accuracy. I might sell my LC-1 but my conscience probably wont't let me since I could never get it to work. The cranking problem does sound like it is what was causing mine to act up. But I'm not going to try mine again, I'm happy with the AEM. Basically everything about the LC-1 sounds too overly complicated. I never would have thought that after wiring up an entirely custom EFI system it would be the supposedly well engineered plug and play Wideband unit that would cause me the most problems. Edited December 7, 2011 by Cannonball89 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akeboshi Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Im not a fan of innovates lc-1 either. I will give them thumbs up for support though. the first one I got didnt work right out of the box and they replaced mine on a warranty. that one died a month later and matt gave me a refund on it. He recommended the zietronix and ive been using that one without trouble. i almost got an aem though. btw thanks for the tips on my other post. ill check them all soon! marcus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited)  Mine is about 6 years old and has never had an issue.  Knock on wood.  I don't remember exactly how I wired it, but I did do a separate ground from all the MS stuff, and I wired it to come on when MS turns on the fuel pump.  You don't want to turn it on BEFORE the engine is cranking.  It says so in the manual.  Heating it up first, and then hitting it with damp, cool combustion gasses during cranking, is baaaad for the sensor.   From the manual: http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LC-1_Manual.pdf 5. The BLUE and WHITE wires should all be grounded to the same ground source. Optimally, these (and any other MTS device ground) will be soldered to the same lug, and connected to a single point. When this isn’t possible, connect each one to a separate lug, and attach in close proximity. Multiple lugs on the same bolt is not optimal, and can result in unwanted signal “noise.†When possible, soldering is always better than crimping. Please see chapter 2.3 for more information on Electrical Grounding Concerns. 6. Optionally, the YELLOW (Analog out 1) and/or BROWN (Analog out 2) can be connected to the analog inputs of other devices such as data loggers, ECUs, or gauges. If either one or both of these wires are not being used isolate and tape the wire(s) out of the way. The default analog outputs are as follows: Analog output one is 1.1V = 14 AFR and .1V = 15 AFR. This is a simulated narrowband signal. Analog output two is setup as 0V = 7.35 AFR and 5V = 22.39 AFR. Note: The LC-1’s heater ground and system ground wires should share the same grounding location of the analog input’s ground. Refer to chapter 2.2 for recommended wiring schematics. It is NOT a good idea to connect the LC-1 permanently to 12V and switch it on with a separate switch before the vehicle is started. Depending on the climate and the sensor position in the exhaust, condensation water can form in the exhaust pipes. This condensation water could then be blown by the exhaust stream against the hot sensor when the car is started. The resulting heat shock can permanently damage the sensor. Edited December 14, 2011 by cygnusx1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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