L28et Swap help Bay area

[randy 77zt]

When i put the odessey battery in back on my car I ran a negative cable from the battery to a mounting bolt on the starter.Both positive and negative cable are 0 gauge welding cable with soldered on eyes.the ecm for the efi is also mounted in back of the car and is wired directly to the battery-there is just a key on signal from a connector under the steering column that wasnt being used after removing the old efi system.I didn not want to depend on the old z wiring.

[BlueStag]

DUDE! DO YOU HAVE A PROPER GROUND BETWEEN THE BLOCK AND THE CHASSIS?

 

If you have no real ground between the block and the chassis (remember, you have rubber engine mounts that do not transmit electricity, right?) then you do not have a valid path for all the current demanded by a starter.

 

You were asked this several responses higher up.

 

Do you have a proper ground between the block and the chassis? This would be a honking big piece of wire, or a woven strap, capable of carrying 200 amps for two minutes without damage.

 

It must be well connected to the chassis, and to the block. On my Triumph Stag with an L6 Z engine, it all is handled at the LH engine mount. I drilled the chassis for a sizable bolt and bolted down a cable (the diameter of my thumb) and bolted the other end to the block where the engine mount attaches. The juice has no difficulty flowing thru the block to the starter.

 

There is a lot to be said about a cable directly to the battery, but if you do not have a proper grounding cable to the block, that is the place to start.

 

The lack of it would explain all your symptoms.

Edited February 11, 2012 by BlueStag

[cd1105]

DUDE! DO YOU HAVE A PROPER GROUND BETWEEN THE BLOCK AND THE CHASSIS?

 

If you have no real ground between the block and the chassis (remember, you have rubber engine mounts that do not transmit electricity, right?) then you do not have a valid path for all the current demanded by a starter.

 

You were asked this several responses higher up.

 

Do you have a proper ground between the block and the chassis? This would be a honking big piece of wire, or a woven strap, capable of carrying 200 amps for two minutes without damage.

 

It must be well connected to the chassis, and to the block. On my Triumph Stag with an L6 Z engine, it all is handled at the LH engine mount. I drilled the chassis for a sizable bolt and bolted down a cable (the diameter of my thumb) and bolted the other end to the block where the engine mount attaches. The juice has no difficulty flowing thru the block to the starter.

 

There is a lot to be said about a cable directly to the battery, but if you do not have a proper grounding cable to the block, that is the place to start.

 

The lack of it would explain all your symptoms.

 

Yes, that was missing form my setup. I haven't had a chance to install my ground strap yet, but i will try to put everything back together tomorrow, since I fixed all my burnt grounds under the dash. I will be installing the ground strap from the starter bolt(where the negative cable once was) to the chassis or firewall will that be sufficient?

[BlueStag]

Yes, that was missing form my setup. I haven't had a chance to install my ground strap yet, but i will try to put everything back together tomorrow, since I fixed all my burnt grounds under the dash. I will be installing the ground strap from the starter bolt(where the negative cable once was) to the chassis or firewall will that be sufficient?

 

If you achieve a proper ground between the block or starter and the chassis, then at minimum the starter will not cook the smaller wires that can also make the circuit.

 

The ground is required just to fire the spark plugs. To say nothing of the fact that the alternator is trying to charge the battery and relying on a proper ground. A running engine draws plenty of amps, and if you had only say a choke cable tying the engine to the chassis, the cable would get red hot. Enough to burn you severely.

 

It is critical that the ground is valid at both ends. The bolt that holds the starter to the trans is pretty good at that end.

 

I would not use the firewall for the other end. As I wrote, on my Stag, I drilled a large hole, for say a 1/2" bolt, down thru the chassis rail, which is a box section and is very thick, and used that to ground the strap.

 

And do clean away the paint such that the eye of the ground strap is copper to steel. There are electrically conductive greases. They come in tubes like toothpaste. They can be very handy in old cars. I had my entire electrical harness apart as I restored my Stag (but not pulled out of the car) and I used the grease pretty liberally. Be careful not to bridge across paired contacts.

 

But where you expose steel to get a ground, a good smear of the grease both assures conductivity and keeps the rust at bay.

 

I'm running a 70% confidence that your whole problem was the lack of a proper ground.

 

As another respondent suggested, the chassis might not be a brilliant conductor 30 years after the car was stamped out and welded together, but at least you are unlikely to do more damage.

 

There MAY be some major grounds in the wire harness that you have not respected, in the engine bay. These would be much smaller wires, but with an eye meant to be bolted to sheet metal or the chassis. Check those for security, cleanliness, and just basic existence.

[BlueStag]

Oh, that pink house with the ratty paint behind my car? That was a location on Desperate Housewives.

[cd1105]

If you achieve a proper ground between the block or starter and the chassis, then at minimum the starter will not cook the smaller wires that can also make the circuit.

 

The ground is required just to fire the spark plugs. To say nothing of the fact that the alternator is trying to charge the battery and relying on a proper ground. A running engine draws plenty of amps, and if you had only say a choke cable tying the engine to the chassis, the cable would get red hot. Enough to burn you severely.

 

It is critical that the ground is valid at both ends. The bolt that holds the starter to the trans is pretty good at that end.

 

I would not use the firewall for the other end. As I wrote, on my Stag, I drilled a large hole, for say a 1/2" bolt, down thru the chassis rail, which is a box section and is very thick, and used that to ground the strap.

 

And do clean away the paint such that the eye of the ground strap is copper to steel. There are electrically conductive greases. They come in tubes like toothpaste. They can be very handy in old cars. I had my entire electrical harness apart as I restored my Stag (but not pulled out of the car) and I used the grease pretty liberally. Be careful not to bridge across paired contacts.

 

But where you expose steel to get a ground, a good smear of the grease both assures conductivity and keeps the rust at bay.

 

I'm running a 70% confidence that your whole problem was the lack of a proper ground.

 

As another respondent suggested, the chassis might not be a brilliant conductor 30 years after the car was stamped out and welded together, but at least you are unlikely to do more damage.

 

There MAY be some major grounds in the wire harness that you have not respected, in the engine bay. These would be much smaller wires, but with an eye meant to be bolted to sheet metal or the chassis. Check those for security, cleanliness, and just basic existence.

 

UPDATE: So I repaired the ground wires that were burnt and put my dash back on. I also ran a ground strap from my starter bolt to the chassis( I drilled a hole in the frame then used a nut insert and attached one end to the chasssis and the other to the starter bolt), along with sanding down all my ground connections to metal and then reattaching them. The starter still clicks but doesn't crank, however the weird spark problem is gone now. Pictures below are how my battery is grounded and how the starter is grounded.

 

 

[BlueStag]

UPDATE: So I repaired the ground wires that were burnt and put my dash back on. I also ran a ground strap from my starter bolt to the chassis( I drilled a hole in the frame then used a nut insert and attached one end to the chasssis and the other to the starter bolt), along with sanding down all my ground connections to metal and then reattaching them. The starter still clicks but doesn't crank, however the weird spark problem is gone now. Pictures below are how my battery is grounded and how the starter is grounded.

 

 

 

It still does not damned crank?

 

Get a jumper cable.

 

First connect to the two bolts to chassis that the two grounding cables attach to. Test.

 

If that does not get the POS cranking, then jump straight from the battery to the starter. Test.

 

No luck there? Push it off a cliff.

 

No. Then do the chassis bolt in the engine bay directly to the battery. No luck? Push it off a cliff.

 

But first go from the starter to the bolt at the end of the cable from the battery.

 

No luck? Douse it in gasoline, light it, and push it off a cliff.

 

Or be prepared to run a cable directly from the battery to the starter. With a link to the chassis.

 

And speak harshly to it. Always works for me.

[Gollum]

As per above - you can double check ground again with jumper cables, just use the negative side to bridge a wire between battery and starter. If there's any difference, then you still don't have enough ground going between the two. Many guys on here just run a heavy duty cable for positive AND negative from the battery when relocating the battery.

 

Double check that all your relays are coming on, hear the fuel pump? ECU won't trigger the starter if there's issues in the power system. I've run into this, where I forgot to hookup my fuel pump relay and my car wouldn't start.

 

Also, when you checked your dizzy rotor position with #1 @ TDC did you VERIFY that #1 was at compression TDC by taking the valve cover off? Might be worth it if even once you get it cranking if it doesn't start.

[cd1105]

As per above - you can double check ground again with jumper cables, just use the negative side to bridge a wire between battery and starter. If there's any difference, then you still don't have enough ground going between the two. Many guys on here just run a heavy duty cable for positive AND negative from the battery when relocating the battery.

 

Double check that all your relays are coming on, hear the fuel pump? ECU won't trigger the starter if there's issues in the power system. I've run into this, where I forgot to hookup my fuel pump relay and my car wouldn't start.

 

Also, when you checked your dizzy rotor position with #1 @ TDC did you VERIFY that #1 was at compression TDC by taking the valve cover off? Might be worth it if even once you get it cranking if it doesn't start.

I will try the jumper cables from negative post on the battery to the starter bolt and see if that helps. The fuel pump comes on correctly when the ignition switch is turned to the "ON" position and the ecu light is on and working. Thank you all for the help so far!

[BlueStag]

I will try the jumper cables from negative post on the battery to the starter bolt and see if that helps. The fuel pump comes on correctly when the ignition switch is turned to the "ON" position and the ecu light is on and working. Thank you all for the help so far!

 

Or douse it in gasoline, light it and push it off a cliff. While speaking harshly to it.

[Gollum]

Another thing you can try, before setting it on fire and pushing it off a cliff (wich WOULD be spectacular to behold), is to pull the starter and make sure it works find on it's own accord outside the vehicle. It's amazing sometimes what they pass off as "remanufactured" sometimes. Last time I bought an alternator I exchanged it three times before getting a decent unit, that's STILL charging a bit hot, but I just figured it was 5 times better than the others...

[BlueStag]

Another thing you can try, before setting it on fire and pushing it off a cliff (wich WOULD be spectacular to behold), is to pull the starter and make sure it works find on it's own accord outside the vehicle. It's amazing sometimes what they pass off as "remanufactured" sometimes. Last time I bought an alternator I exchanged it three times before getting a decent unit, that's STILL charging a bit hot, but I just figured it was 5 times better than the others...

 

Good point. But don't forget to speak harshly to it.

[cd1105]

Another thing you can try, before setting it on fire and pushing it off a cliff (wich WOULD be spectacular to behold), is to pull the starter and make sure it works find on it's own accord outside the vehicle. It's amazing sometimes what they pass off as "remanufactured" sometimes. Last time I bought an alternator I exchanged it three times before getting a decent unit, that's STILL charging a bit hot, but I just figured it was 5 times better than the others...

 

I tried the jumper cable(10 gauge) directly from the battery to the starter bolt and still the starter only clicks. I also tried from the battery to the transmission and that didn't work either. I pulled the starter in january and had it bench testes and they said it was strong.

[BlueStag]

I tried the jumper cable(10 gauge) directly from the battery to the starter bolt and still the starter only clicks. I also tried from the battery to the transmission and that didn't work either. I pulled the starter in january and had it bench testes and they said it was strong.

 

Pull it out again and test it again. Speak harshly to it. And show it some gasoline. Just show it.

[cd1105]

Pull it out again and test it again. Speak harshly to it. And show it some gasoline. Just show it.

 

LOL i will do...literally

Edited March 11, 2012 by cd1105

[cd1105]

Pull it out again and test it again. Speak harshly to it. And show it some gasoline. Just show it.

 

Ok so i pulled the starter to bench test and it spun but didn't kick out from the casing. So obviously I need a new starter right? The weird thing about the whole thing is that the starter DOES crank the motor sometimes. I'm going to pick up a new one this upcoming week.

[BlueStag]

Ok so i pulled the starter to bench test and it spun but didn't kick out from the casing. So obviously I need a new starter right? The weird thing about the whole thing is that the starter DOES crank the motor sometimes. I'm going to pick up a new one this upcoming week.

 

I cannot claim to be expert enough on this to comment. Which won't stop me......

 

My understanding is that a starter has two major electrical components.

 

One is a motor that will spin its gear and by extension, the engine to get it started.

 

The other is a solenoid that will push the gear out toward the flywheel/flexplate to cause the gear to mesh with the flywheel/flexplate.

 

Look to see that you are supplying power to the solenoid as well as the motor.

 

There is a large bolt that your battery lead connects to. There is a smaller spade terminal that is energized briefly as you turn your key.

 

If you knew all that and your test resulted in no joy, I'd day your solenoid is whipped and you need to buy a new starter.

[cgsheen]

Besides throwing out the starter gear, the solenoid also has a "switch" that is supposed to pass full battery voltage to the starter motor when the solenoid is engaged. So it's important to test it as it is meant to be used: +12V to the solenoid terminal, Ground the case, apply +12V ("signal") to the spade on the solenoid to engage and spin the motor... In the old days we used an old screw driver and jumped the solenoid to kick the starter over - there are more elegant ways to do that.

 

If the starter tests fine, you may be overlooking the famous "starter click" problem of early Z's. It can be due to the condition of the wire that runs between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. There are a couple of solutions: Completely replace that wire, or install a lower voltage soleniod (relay) as described in many other posts in these Forums. I had the intermitant "click - no start" in my 260. I abandoned the existing start wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid, ran a completely new wire, and haven't had the problem since.

[cd1105]

Besides throwing out the starter gear, the solenoid also has a "switch" that is supposed to pass full battery voltage to the starter motor when the solenoid is engaged. So it's important to test it as it is meant to be used: +12V to the solenoid terminal, Ground the case, apply +12V ("signal") to the spade on the solenoid to engage and spin the motor... In the old days we used an old screw driver and jumped the solenoid to kick the starter over - there are more elegant ways to do that.

 

If the starter tests fine, you may be overlooking the famous "starter click" problem of early Z's. It can be due to the condition of the wire that runs between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. There are a couple of solutions: Completely replace that wire, or install a lower voltage soleniod (relay) as described in many other posts in these Forums. I had the intermitant "click - no start" in my 260. I abandoned the existing start wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid, ran a completely new wire, and haven't had the problem since.

 

I had my friends shop order me a "new" bosch starter just to eliminate the starter being an issue. I will probably get to install it sometime next week, since its going to rain this weekend. Can i get one of these relays from an auto parts store? Do you have an online link to the part? When you said that you abandoned the old wire did you cut it from the ignition switch all the way to the connector in the engine bay, then solder new wire in?

[cgsheen]

When you said that you abandoned the old wire did you cut it from the ignition switch all the way to the connector in the engine bay, then solder new wire in?

 

Ya, I pulled the socket off the back of the IGN Switch, cut the Start Signal wire (left the existing wire in place in the harness) used a solder type butt connector to attach a new wire (didn't want a crimp connection again) - heat shrink to cover the connection, then ran the new wire under the dash - out the grommet on the passenger firewall - along the existing harness to the starter, (cut the existing start signal wire as it came out of the loom and pitched it) - reused protective sleeve from original wire - new female spade connector to attach to the starter solenoid - re-taped as much of the harness as I could to cover/protect the new wiring.

 

You'll have to search for the info on adding a lower voltage starter solenoid/relay... Made Famous by TonyD, I read it long ago, but chose to replace the single wire rather than adding & wiring up a new relay.