Big Block Ford in a Z! Help needed!

[HAT0791]

Hello all, I am a long time lurker, and I am about to start a full tear down on my '71 240z, and I have a few questions regarding a V8 swap, that I couldn't find despite exhausting the search function...

 

I have a fantastic running 360ci Ford engine, and a C4 transmission, that I want to freshen up, and swap into the car over the winter, and my questions are:

 

1. Does anybody here have any experience swapping a big block Ford engine into a Z?

 

2. How much more difficult would a big block swap be, compared to a small block Ford swap?

 

3. Does anyone know of any plans/drawings of proven cross-member/engine mount designs specifically for a big block Ford setup?

 

Any tips/tricks, words of advice, encouragement, or a swift slap on the back of the head and a few good reasons for why I would be so foolish as to think about putting a 360 in a Z, would be greatly appreciated.

 

Just FYI,

The car has:

A 12pt cage

R200 diff

Fuel cell

Front strut tower brace

 

I am a good welder, with a fair amount of fabrication experience. So a little remodeling isn't going to scare me...

[74_5.0L_Z]

This job is going to be a monumental task, but I'm sure it is possible. If this car is a dedicated race car, I would consider mounting the engine with a front plate/mid-plate mounts rather than trying to use rubber mounts. The front plate /mid plate setup makes the process of mounting the engine much simpler and also frees up much needed space for the exhaust.

 

At least two of us Ford guys have mounted our engines using this method. My car has a 331 CI stroked 5.0L and a T5 transmission, and Terry Oxendale's car had a stroked 351W. Here a picture showing the engine in mine:

 

 

 

Another modification that Terry (blueovalz) did to his car that would help you fit the engine in your car is the following: Relocate the crossmember forward 1". This will add much needed caster and create some additional room between the crossmember and the firewall.

 

If this car is going to be used for more than drag racing, I would ditch the C4 transmission and look for something with an overdrive gear. That big block won't live long as a driver without an overdrive gear.

[LMoore56]

Well they stuffed the 390 into the 67/68 Mustangs. So with a little bit of fabrication experience. You should be able to shoe horn it there. I cut out my frame rails and replaced them with 1 1/2 x 3 rectangle tubing and gained enough clearance for long tube headers. Put it in there and be different. Don't be like everyone else. You will have people asking, what is it, and how did you do it. Just about everything on my 280/630Z is Ford now. Its me about a year to do it all, but I'm getting close to firing my engine and going for a test drive. Still waiting on my rods that I ordered from ( Aus Ford Parts ) out of Washington state. He's got to be the slowest person for shipping stuff. I'm building a 387 Clevor for mine with my 4 speed Top Loader tranny, and Explorer rear end, with 3.08 gears and 8.8 Trac Loc diff installed. Well enough on that, just go for it and be different.

[HAT0791]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I'm going to be pulling the L24 out of the car tomorrow, and then I'll be taking measurements for the dimensions of the engine compartment, calling some local shops to find one that can properly shorten and balance a drive shaft, and trying to find somewhere to get some high grade steel for the fabrication of the braces/mounts/cross-members. So, if everything measures out ok, then I will begin the process of the swap this weekend! I'll be posting pictures of the progress, and I'm sure I'll have some questions for you guys along the way.

[yellowoctupus]

I don't know how 'high grade' of steel you need for your motor mounts, if you're doing a cradle, etc, the stock mounts are normally mild, very easy to machine, form weld etc.

[HAT0791]

Well, the 360 is now torn down. All that's left in the block is the rotating assembly, and the oil pump. Everything looks fantastic inside, so I will be thoroughly cleaning everything, painting the block and other parts, installing a stage 1 cam, new timing set, and all new gaskets in my free time over the next few weeks.

As far as fitment goes, It looks like I will have to cut the transmission tunnel about 2 inches all the way around, and 4 inches back to allow enough clearance for the transmission to sit at the proper angle. Which is fine because I need to cut the floor pans out and re-work the frame around the compression rod brackets on both sides, and that will allow me to tie everything in with fresh steel and some solid gusseting. I'll post pics of everything as soon as I finish cleaning up the shop from the whirlwind tear-down process.

[Michael]

The main hassle in doing a swap isn't the swap itself, but the and feeding of the engine. If you're comfortable with the 360 Ford, then that's already 75% of the battle. The fabrication will involve standard issues such as routing the driver's side exhaust past the steering shaft, fitting the exhaust pipes around the transmission in the transmission tunnel, locating the shifter and so forth. But these are fairly minor for a person skilled in welding.

 

So, again, go for it... if the engine build is reliable, the car will be reliable.

[HAT0791]

Took some measurements, and started the process of making the big block 360 fit in there.

 

I was trying to post a picture of the oil pan progress, but my image hosting site is down... Maybe next time.

 

Oil pan has to be notched to fit between the rack mounts on the cross-member,which is going to be notched out to allow for the oil pan. (the rack cross-member will be reinforced and braced in to the frame, as wel as the the front clip.)

Edited August 20, 2012 by HAT0791

[LMoore56]

Now the oil pan having a front sump on it, I never crossed my mind. It has been over 40 years since I've messed with the FE blocks, and I've been working with the rear sump 351W's for so long that I never thought of it. I'm sure that there has to be someone out there that makes a rear sump pan for the FE blocks. But finding it might take a little searching, but I think it might be worth it. I'm using a truck pan in my car. I've done so much fab work on my car that it's hard to imagine, and changed just about everything on the car to Ford parts. I have people asking me when I'm going to have finished so they can go for a ride.

[HAT0791]

Now the oil pan having a front sump on it, I never crossed my mind. It has been over 40 years since I've messed with the FE blocks, and I've been working with the rear sump 351W's for so long that I never thought of it. I'm sure that there has to be someone out there that makes a rear sump pan for the FE blocks. But finding it might take a little searching, but I think it might be worth it. I'm using a truck pan in my car. I've done so much fab work on my car that it's hard to imagine, and changed just about everything on the car to Ford parts. I have people asking me when I'm going to have finished so they can go for a ride.

 

 

I took a lot of measurements beforehand, and it will fit. It's going to be close, but it will wedge in there. haha. The problem is not the sump, its the pump itself. The pump only clears the front of the oil pan by about 3/4 of an inch. I was hoping it would be set a little farther back than that, but I have worked out a way to get around the front sump.

 

 

The unfortunate thing about it all is that I do not have an Argon gas adapter for my welder, so there's a lot of cleanup necessary after any welding because of the splatter. But, so far everything is going well. I'll drop a couple of pics in the next few days when I lower the engine in the car with the notched pan for a test-fit.

 

(BTW, the water in those cylinders is from the pressure washing that block just got. I cleaned it out and sprayed oil in/on all of the moving parts shortly after I took the picture.)

Edited August 21, 2012 by HAT0791

[HAT0791]

Just out of curiosity, Something that 74_5.0L_Z said got me thinking, moving the cross-member forward an inch would be a great way to clear a little more space for that engine, is there any special process that needs to be followed in order to move that cross member forward? I would think that there would be enough adjustment in the compression rod bracket to adjust it an inch forward, but I've never seen this done before. Any advice?

[74_5.0L_Z]

My front crossmember is moved forward about 1/2 inch, and Terry Oxendale (BlueOvalZ on here) moved his crossmember forward an inch or more. Moving it forward requires the use of adjustable tension/compression rods which are readily available from several sources. Additionally, it also may require modification of the steering shaft. You will probably need to modify the steering shaft to clear your exhaust even if you don't move the crossmember, so that really doesn't add much additional work.

 

One problem that you may encounter is clearance between the front fender and tire if you move the crossmember forward and use wide front tires. Terry and I both have custom bodywork, so it is not a problem for us.

[HAT0791]

Gotcha. Thanks for the quick reply! That might be an option for me. But I will have to see how much clearance I have. I considered putting a set of CF fender flares on it after the swap, so I might just use the fact that I might need to trim the fender a little as my excuse to do it. haha. I am hoping to get the motor set in the car tomorrow, so that I can see how much clearance I have in there, so I can make plans for my mounts and frame modifications.

 

I inspected the frame rails in the engine compartment very closely, and I am not happy with their condition. They seem to be thin, and weakened from too may repairs. (This car spend a large part of its life as a race car in the hands of someone who apparently did more wrecking than racing...) I think I would prefer to cut them out and just weld in some fresh steel. Any advice on what size would be strong and rigid without sacrificing space? I was thinking in the ballpark of 2"x3", and just cutting out the factory frame rails from underneath the car as well, and fabricating new compression rod brackets too, Pretty much just putting a whole new unibody frame underneath the car that is much stronger than stock, and tying the front frame rails into it.

 

In my mind this is better than just capping the front rails with angle, and the rails underneath the car are in fairly poor shape anyway... ...Thoughts?

[74_5.0L_Z]

I built a full tubular front end for my car after I wrecked it about ten years ago. The replacement frame rails are 2.5 inch square and have an 0.085" wall thickness. When I built my front end I wanted to be able to use the factory front suspension with just a little improvement. My frame rails have the factory placement (25.125" apart measured inside to inside). I did move the crossmember mounting holes forward 1/2", and the tops of my strut towers were moved 1/2" backward. Moving the crossmember and strut top allows me to run six degrees of caster.

 

[HAT0791]

I built a full tubular front end for my car after I wrecked it about ten years ago. The replacement frame rails are 2.5 inch square and have an 0.085" wall thickness. When I built my front end I wanted to be able to use the factory front suspension with just a little improvement. My frame rails have the factory placement (25.125" apart measured inside to inside). I did move the crossmember mounting holes forward 1/2", and the tops of my strut towers were moved 1/2" backward. Moving the crossmember and strut top allows me to run six degrees of caster.

 

 

 

Got it. I'm going to strip the car and get the shell ready for modification hopefully next week. (engine/trans is out already) I've been making slow but steady progress, and I'm looking at possibly having all the old steel cut out by the end of next week. Then it's to the drawing board for the rebuild. Thanks so much for all the info so far. You guys have been awesome!

[HAT0791]

I built a full tubular front end for my car after I wrecked it about ten years ago. The replacement frame rails are 2.5 inch square and have an 0.085" wall thickness. When I built my front end I wanted to be able to use the factory front suspension with just a little improvement. My frame rails have the factory placement (25.125" apart measured inside to inside). I did move the crossmember mounting holes forward 1/2", and the tops of my strut towers were moved 1/2" backward. Moving the crossmember and strut top allows me to run six degrees of caster.

 

 

74_5.0L_Z, do you have any more pics of the frame/support work that you have done on the front end you could post/message me? I would really like to glean from your experience and I'm trying to get to the point of visualizing exactly how I want to work everything out on the car. I am very impressed with everything I have seen so far on your car! And would like to borrow certain elements of your design if that is alright with you!

[74_5.0L_Z]

Here is a link to all of the photos in my gallery on HybridZ:

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=user_activity&search_app=gallery&mid=30&search_app=gallery

 

I would love to see some pictures of the cage that is already in your car. That way I can offer some suggestions that might leverage off of what you already have. What is the condition of your rocker panels and floor pans?

 

I am flattered when others wish to copy elements that I have incorporated into my car. As always, feel free. However, there is not a single thing that I have done to this car that I don't think I could improve upon given a second chance. I have some definite ideas about what I would do differently, and I would be happy to share those ideas. How someone might make use of those ideas depends on several things: What is the intended use of the car? How much effort do you want to put into the car? How deep are your pockets? The last is an unfortunate reality that limits us all...

Edited September 1, 2012 by 74_5.0L_Z

[HAT0791]

Here is a link to all of the photos in my gallery on HybridZ:

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?app=core&module=search&do=user_activity&search_app=gallery&mid=30&search_app=gallery

 

I would love to see some pictures of the cage that is already in your car. That way I can offer some suggestions that might leverage off of what you already have. What is the condition of your rocker panels and floor pans?

 

I am flattered when others wish to copy elements that I have incorporated into my car. As always, feel free. However, there is not a single thing that I have done to this car that I don't think I could improve upon given a second chance. I have some definite ideas about what I would do differently, and I would be happy to share those ideas. How someone might make use of those ideas depends on several things: What is the intended use of the car? How much effort do you want to put into the car? How deep are your pockets? The last is an unfortunate reality that limits us all...

 

Unfortunately my pockets are not very deep. That is part of the reason this is a long term project with a lot of patience and careful planning involved. I will try to get some good shots of the existing cage up later this week. The floor pans are going to be replaced, as they are rusted, and also damaged from being jacked up improperly by the idiot kid who owned the car before I rescued it. (Seriously, this kid was not too bright) The rockers are going to be cut out and fresh steel welded in, as the drivers side is rusted out. The rails on the inside of the doors are very solid though. Anyway, I'll try to get everything cleaned up so I can get some good pics later this week. The car is not going to be a race car again, thankfully whoever raced, it also kept up with the registration, and I already have it tagged, so will be a weekend toy... eventually. Right now the engine is on the stand and I am trying to get it cleaned up and ready for reassembly.

 

I am working on drawing up plans and figuring up how much steel I will need. As soon as I get them drawn up I will scan them and post them. Again, thanks a TON.