TieFighter88 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) Got my Ignition Timing Light gun setup to help tune my L28... Its drives/idles/very little power... Timing is def out... I twist my Distributor to get closer to the Ballpark of 20degrees (it was way out, not even close to the measuring lines) but cant twist the distributor to get closer than 30degrees out... I already physically established (by feeling for the compression stroke at TDC, then looking at the Distributor orientation) that the firing order does not start at the usual notch on cap... I tried rotating my entire firing order on the cap towards the direction that I rotated the distributor to get closer to within 20 degreess TDC... she didn't even start... Where should I start? If I cant twist the Distributor enough to adjust to the favorable timing... I should rip the whole thing out and put her in her place? Edited September 21, 2012 by TieFighter88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TieFighter88 Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Looking online: set #1 to TDC on compressio nstroke, pull the distributor, set rotor to point to #1 post on cap,look at where the drive end of the distributor engages the oil pump drive shaft and where it lines up, take long screw driver and set oil pump drive shaft to same position and reinstall distributor??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Has your harmonic balancer slipped giving you an erroneous TDC Spike Mark? I'd stick a pencil down the #1 hole, turn it slowly, and determine if TDC on your Damper is actually TDC on your engine. THEN worry about twisted timing gear on dizzy drive shaft, being a tooth off, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCZ Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Has your harmonic balancer slipped giving you an erroneous TDC Spike Mark? I'd stick a pencil down the #1 hole, turn it slowly, and determine if TDC on your Damper is actually TDC on your engine. THEN worry about twisted timing gear on dizzy drive shaft, being a tooth off, etc... ***WARNING! WARNING! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!*** If you are a good mechanic, or at least a careful and knowlegeable tinkerer, the above advise is fine. However, if you are a ham-handed tool torturer like yours truly, you might get caught up in turning your engine over and watching the timing mark so much that you hear a crunch and turn your head just in time to see half of your pencil fall to the ground while the other half falls into the #1 combustion chamber! Took me a while to fish that out of there while cursing the "cheap Chinese pencil" and otherwise casting blame elsewhere. You might want to use something less breakable, but not something that may scratch the piston top, perhaps something plastic. Happy Wrenching! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Uh, the stroke of a Z is not longer than a pencil...If you're saying you took a nub of a pencil to do this, uh... I am pilloried in some forums for being "condescending" or get posts in reply that start out "I'm not f-ing stupid, dude!" So PLEASE understand this sits is NOT devoted to mechanical noobs, neophytes, or that ilk.I try to give people the benefit of the doubt to figure out you use a pencil longer than 86mm (uh, again, thinking about this that would cover the HKS/Crower 85mm monster!) Get a tape measure.Measure a pencil.They are NOT 3" long! Do I REALLY have to specify "take a NEW pencil" here at Hybrid Z? ZC.C, maybe... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 TDC is normally determined by going to the timing mark and rocking back and forth, BTW Using a NEW pencil puts indication up near the valve cover where it's easy to see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) More blah blah blah... A soft pencil is the wrong material to suggest using because it is soft enough to catch on the spark plug threads with even the slightest amount of angle away from optimum. It's obvious the pencil angled slightly, grabbed the threads, and was folded into the combustion chamber. The proper advise would have been this........ Since your car does run, take off your cap and turn it until it's starting to approach where you currently have the wire for cylinder 1 on the distributor cap. At this point, you should be able to see the piston coming up and near top dead center. Only then do you stick something in the spark plug hole to get it as close as possible to top dead center. I'm also willing to venture that his timing mark on the pulley matches top dead center and that his issue stems from either an improperly indexed oil pump shaft or the plate on the bottom of his distributor has been adjusted full deflection in one direction. Original poster should inspect his distributor and will notice that the metal plate that the distributor hold down nut clamps can also be "re-indexed" to gain a bit more authority in adjustment. If it's already adjusted fully one way, try it in the middle. By using both adjustments, you surely can get the timing dead on whether you have to rotate the wires on the cap one position or re-index the oil pump shaft. It's up to the owner to determine which is worth his time. Edited September 23, 2012 by HowlerMonkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TieFighter88 Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 Thank you all for your advice. I removed the entire distributor and discovered an elusive/tiny extra nut to allow more rotation to set the timing. - Established TDC serval times consistently, and noted the distributor rotor position (at a very unnatural point on the cap, nothing close to the common number 1 notch) - Using the ignition timing gun with the number 1 sparkplug, the engine cannot *stand* anything near or within the range of 5 to 25 degrees advance, (I have the marked the correct timing notch also) - The sweet spot is much further from the timing degree marks, easily about 40 degrees (with respect to the timing marks Is this simply just a fault on the idiot rebuild job? (Since the timing notch is far from the traditional factory range TDC, and the distributor rotor position is off from the factory number-one notch on the cap at TDC...) Or do people just ignore the factory notches and build their dizzy's TDC firing order to their liking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TieFighter88 Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 ***WARNING! WARNING! DANGER WILL ROBINSON!*** If you are a good mechanic, or at least a careful and knowlegeable tinkerer, the above advise is fine. However, if you are a ham-handed tool torturer like yours truly, you might get caught up in turning your engine over and watching the timing mark so much that you hear a crunch and turn your head just in time to see half of your pencil fall to the ground while the other half falls into the #1 combustion chamber! Took me a while to fish that out of there while cursing the "cheap Chinese pencil" and otherwise casting blame elsewhere. You might want to use something less breakable, but not something that may scratch the piston top, perhaps something plastic. Happy Wrenching! BuggA!!! I just rocked her back-and-forth down the driveway in gear with my finger over the number1 hole to feel for the compression stroke, then inched forward with a bright LED headlamp and my eyes on the piston... exactly TDC on the 0degree mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TieFighter88 Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 Original poster should inspect his distributor and will notice that the metal plate that the distributor hold down nut clamps can also be "re-indexed" to gain a bit more authority in adjustment. Exactly that! I had to pull the distributor out before I found that tiny little bolt, this allowed me a full 90 degrees of freedom in the distributor, which is more than enough for anyone to find the sweetspot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) If someone wants to be an arsehat about this (more and more often...) "The proper advise would have been this........" Put a freakin' DIAL INDICATOR SPINDLE DOWN THE HOLE! (Connected to an indicator...Duh!) Not "something"! Edited September 24, 2012 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 The tool you need is a "piston stop tool". Screws down into the spark plug hole. Remove ALL the plugs and insert the Stop into the #1 cylinder. Put a racket on the crank bolt and rotate CW slowly and easily. When the piston hits the stop, mark the balancer at the zero degree mark. Then rotation the engine the other way (CCW) until the piston hits the stop and again mark the balance at the zero degree mark. The center point between the two marks is the real TDC. Balancers slip over the years. I have seen them 20 degrees off and still appear to be working. However, a balancer that is that far off will not last much longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 They have one like a spark plug with a dial indicator in the center... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Original poster should also check whether his breaker plate is stuck in the fully advanced position. He should be able to move it with his hands and be able to see it return to it's fully resting position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazeum Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 I too got an issue with engine to measure timing properly. Difference is my setup runs great with a lot of power but timing light shows me 45° at idle and over 60° total advance (those who believe more timing = more power should get into my car ) Here's my topic. I thought also about the damper being shot with too much offset. I first used an 1/2" extension from my tool box but it was hard to feel TDC at +/- 15° so I've made a special tool which cost me an old sparkplug, a selflocking nut milled & a piece of threaded rod (M8). I put the tool in sparkplug hole #1, I then turned the engine CW & CCW until piston touches the tool, TDC was right in the middle. My damper was spot on exactly in front of my timing indicator. I'm now suspecting my spark plug cable not compatible with my timing lights. It is obvious timing is quite correct (not perfect though) My tool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 If someone wants to be an arsehat about this (more and more often...) "The proper advise would have been this........" Put a freakin' DIAL INDICATOR SPINDLE DOWN THE HOLE! (Connected to an indicator...Duh!) Not "something"! Certainly not a pencil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TieFighter88 Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 I too got an issue with engine to measure timing properly. Difference is my setup runs great with a lot of power but timing light shows me 45° at idle and over 60° total advance (those who believe more timing = more power should get into my car ) Here's my topic. I thought also about the damper being shot with too much offset. I first used an 1/2" extension from my tool box but it was hard to feel TDC at +/- 15° so I've made a special tool which cost me an old sparkplug, a selflocking nut milled & a piece of threaded rod (M8). I put the tool in sparkplug hole #1, I then turned the engine CW & CCW until piston touches the tool, TDC was right in the middle. My damper was spot on exactly in front of my timing indicator. I'm now suspecting my spark plug cable not compatible with my timing lights. It is obvious timing is quite correct (not perfect though) My tool: This is pretty much exactly my setup... and the questions I had in my mind when I put the timing light down there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted September 25, 2012 Share Posted September 25, 2012 I've never had an issue using Eberhard Faber-Castell standard wood pencils since..... 197.......1978 I think is the first time I used one. Handy, and never had a problem. Sometimes "operator error" in lo-budget answers IS the problem and not the device used. I say pencil because just about anybody then had one in their pocket. As opposed to a Hardwood Dowel of similar diameter. We're not talking a 15:1 racing engine here, it's a flat topped stocker. If it went crunch, most of the remnants would combust or harmlessly be pulverized. As opposed to 'something' which could include metallic objects which can mar the piston top. Hard to do that with an eraser... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCZ Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 Uh, the stroke of a Z is not longer than a pencil...If you're saying you took a nub of a pencil to do this, uh... I am pilloried in some forums for being "condescending" or get posts in reply that start out "I'm not f-ing stupid, dude!" So PLEASE understand this sits is NOT devoted to mechanical noobs, neophytes, or that ilk.I try to give people the benefit of the doubt to figure out you use a pencil longer than 86mm (uh, again, thinking about this that would cover the HKS/Crower 85mm monster!) Get a tape measure.Measure a pencil.They are NOT 3" long! Do I REALLY have to specify "take a NEW pencil" here at Hybrid Z? ZC.C, maybe... Tony! Toni! Toné! Normally you are such a careful reader and a proponent of exact language usage, but I'm afraid you missed what I've written this time. Uh, the stroke of a Z is not longer than a pencil...If you're saying you took a nub of a pencil to do this, uh... I never said that. For the record, the pencil I used was much longer than 86mm. Until is wasn't. So PLEASE understand this sits is NOT devoted to mechanical noobs, neophytes, or that ilk. I DO understand that and appreciate it, but somehow they (we?) keep slipping in around the edges! To that end, I said If you are a good mechanic, or at least a careful and knowlegeable tinkerer, the above advise is fine. However, if you are a ham-handed tool torturer like yours truly, . . . The fact that the OP was asking about this procedure suggested to me that he is closer to the latter than the former. I was simply trying to pass on a bit of my limited but hard-earned experience. And lo and behold, the HybridZ community responded with several excellent tools and tips. Group Hug! But your point about the pencil being handy, cheap and readily available is well taken, and I have since successfully used it to determine TDC. I just make sure to introduce it to the cylinder at a point closer to TDC, so that the pencil does not get wedged in the cylinder and thereby snapped in two by my above mentioned ham-handedness, leading to "short pencil syndrome". A fate we all wish to avoid, no doubt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 I used a drinking straw to find TDC, and later I verified it with a piston stop and a degree wheel. I was off by 2 degrees. Not bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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