T5 transmission question

[WaiDai]

I have a 83 280zx turbo with the Borg Warner T5. Ive considered the routes of putting in a wc t5 (too much customization), going the nissan 5 speed route (rather not), and just going to the junkyard and getting a t5 out of another 280zx (i feel safer knowing i have a freshly rebuilt one).

Story:
My 3-4 syncro assembly is bad. When driving home it got harder and harder to shift into 3rd and any gear for that matter. I got home driving in 1st down my street. Then when i stopped the car and put it into neutral, all i heard was a clicking clacking sound as the car was sitting in neutral. I stepped on the clutch and the sound disappeared. It would come back as i eased off the clutch then finally it somehow slapped into gear(the noise also stopped) though the shifter was in neutral and i quickly pressed back down on the clutch. I eased off the clutch again to learn the car was in gear and i couldn't get it out. I took apart the transmission to find that the part that is supposed to slide around over the 3/4 syncro was hard to budge. after some very manly hours i was able to push it loose. I lifted the keys and saw some metal shavings inside and it was really difficult to press in the keys and slide the part around. now that the transmission itself was in neutral i rotated the shafts to see if the transmission was in neutral and it was until it would randomly grab into gear and let go. I checked the gears rotation ratios and determined it to be 3/4. 

Symptoms:
Noise from Transmission
Car hard to shift
Transmission suddenly goes into a gear
Cant get car out of gear
Shifter still in neutral

Theory
This appears to me that the noise was possibly the keys having trouble going into gear. The car got into 3rd and was hard to shift out because the syncros are bad. It randomly went into gear as performed when turning the shafts in neutral. Shifter was in neutral meaning the forks held the parts in the neutral position but the gears were still in 3rd which could be explained by the spin test aswell since the gears were in that position and it would randomly grab into gear.

Solution And Question:
Will this rebuild kit work for our (nissan) T5? i posted a question to the seller as well but it says he is away till august..... The brand for the item is Tremec and as most of you would know is the company that took over the T5 from Borg Warner. This kit goes for pretty cheap compared to my googling of syncro assemblies. Any suggestions are welcomed except those saying "just go with nissan 5speed, or get a mustang t5 or any of that" Suggestions should be on the line of "you should buy from here it's cheaper and better" or "i dont think that is your problem, your problem actually is....". I havent seen many topics on rebuild kits (i seen a few but they target one seller that sells a rebuild kit for $250... which is pretty hefty. 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/T5-NON-WORLD-Class-Master-Rebuild-Kit-GM-Ford-Jeep-AMC-/350712906441#vi-content

 

[WaiDai]

That one was the full rebuild. but i would probably go with this one too. (its the one that actually said tremec. i posted the link to the full rebuild that seller has V.S. this one)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T5-NON-WORLD-Transmission-Rebuild-Kit-GM-Ford-Jeep-AMC-/360610854320#vi-content

[WaiDai]

bump for an answer?

[slownrusty]

I am not answering your question specifically but the cheapest bang for your buck is to get a NA ZX tranny and driveshaft and for about $100 at the bone yard and within two hours you can be up and running again.  I ran the NA ZX tranny on my modified ZXT and drove it hard for many years when my BW T5 had shifting issues and it held up beautifully and shifted super smooth.  Seems like the BW T5 have these inherent issues as they get older and the miles rack up.

 

Regards - Yasin

[Nigel]

 Any suggestions are welcomed except those saying "just go with nissan 5speed, or get a mustang t5 or any of that" 

 

I'm curious what specifically you have against the Nissan 5 speed?

 

Nigel

[WaiDai]

I'm curious what specifically you have against the Nissan 5 speed?

 

Nigel

Because eventually i want to attempt to upgrade my bw t5 into the wc one. i already have it apart and had some good visuals of my problems. ive read a lot of post about the bw t5 in my car but i do plan on doing some custom work prob by next summer to upgrade to a wc t5. i dont really want to get a transmission from the junkyard since it feels like a gamble. i feel safer knowing my transmission is rebuilt and better yet rebuilt by me (wont be taking any shortcuts and going word for word from the fsm). But yea any idea of the links i showed? im sure there are some t5 experts that know this rebuild kit..

 

i responded to both post using this one basically. so thanks for the feedback guys! and yasin i do trust your word since ive read your work on your 280zx. i do want to work with the t5 though and just need some clarity on the kits i found.

[Nigel]

Fair enough. The WC upgrade sounds interesting. I'll be watching to see how that turns out...

 

Nigel

[Mack]

have you looked into a L to VG adapter plate?  I am pretty sure the Z32 5spd transmission are a bit ahead of the WC t5 and you can pick them up dirt cheap ANYWHERE.

[WaiDai]

have you looked into a L to VG adapter plate?  I am pretty sure the Z32 5spd transmission are a bit ahead of the WC t5 and you can pick them up dirt cheap ANYWHERE.

i am very curious of this idea. i seen big phils video on this but i wasnt sure how much work would be involved? he went for the z31 tranny i believe but i will look into this. if you have a link or experience in what is needed that would help a lot. ive only been reading on t5 for t5... and the 5 speed from the 280zx. never looked into other outside transmission so i would be interested in this if the cost factor is similar. 

[WaiDai]

im still looking for an answer to my question soo im not changing the topic from its original post.

 

from what i looked up those adapter plates come weighing in at roughly 400. then have to buy the transmission and more. soo that sounds like something ill consider later. im just trying to get my daily back on the road in time for school. 

 

sooooo anybody have any idea about this kit?

[Tony D]

Sounds like the shift forks are loose on the selector rods from aggressive shifting and now they slide the selection cones randomly. But to address it in turn:

 

I have a 83 280zx turbo with the Borg Warner T5. Ive considered the routes of putting in a wc t5 (too much customization) wow!, going the nissan 5 speed route (rather not) O.Keeey, and just going to the junkyard and getting a t5 out of another 280zx (i feel safer knowing i have a freshly rebuilt one) At least you could open it up and compare it to see what's bad in yours! AAmco usually can order in one fer ya... got $1500?. If the WC conversion is too much customization, the Z32 Box conversion requires bit of a 'customization' -- probably moreso than a WCT5

Story:
 

My 3-4 syncro assembly is bad. When driving home it got harder and harder to shift into 3rd and any gear for that matter  This is not a 3/4 Synchro, "any gear for that matter" means dragging clutch disc, or pins on the rods allowing the shift fork fingers to move but not positively...they can slip so may not get the thing into the gear it's supposed to be in. I got home driving in 1st down my street. Then when i stopped the car and put it into neutral, all i heard was a clicking clacking sound as the car was sitting in neutral.Sounds like bearings knocking about without cages, open it up and take a look. I stepped on the clutch and the sound disappeared.That moves it to the INPUT SHAFT BEARING It would come back as i eased off the clutch then finally it somehow slapped into gear(the noise also stopped) though the shifter was in neutral and i quickly pressed back down on the clutch.Then you weren't in "N" but in gear. Sure sounds like a shift fork slipping. I eased off the clutch again to learn the car was in gear and i couldn't get it out.Sounds like a shift fork sheared the pin holding it to the selector rod. I took apart the transmission to find that the part that is supposed to slide around over the 3/4 syncro was hard to budge. after some very manly hours i was able to push it loose. I lifted the keys and saw some metal shavings inside and it was really difficult to press in the keys and slide the part around.Well, that justifies replacing the 'ground up parts'! now that the transmission itself was in neutral i rotated the shafts to see if the transmission was in neutral and it was until it would randomly grab into gear and let go.At this point, it hasn't occurred that with the selector in "N" but you still being in gear means something is Sheared/Bent dealing with the shift selector rods and the fingers  going over the synchro selector? I checked the gears rotation ratios and determined it to be 3/4. Huh?

Symptoms:
Noise from Transmission Bad Bearings
Car hard to shift Define 'Hard' and 'How' the shifter is physically hard to move? Like something is dragging?
Transmission suddenly goes into a gear Disconnected Shift Finger rattling around pushing selector internally engaging synchros randomly. Or mechanical jamming of internal parts giving the appearance of being in gear, but not really. A seized pilot needlebearing does something similar making you think you have a clutch problem because it won't 'disengage'...
Cant get car out of gear Disconnected Shift Finger rattling around pushing selector internally engaging synchros randomly, or jammed/seized component.
Shifter still in neutral Sheared Pin in Shift Finger to Selector Rod, or Bent Shift Fingers 

Theory

This appears to me that the noise was possibly the keys having trouble going into gear.No, when the noise goes away with the clutch its an input shaft bearing going bad--classic symptom. The car got into 3rd and was hard to shift out because the syncros are bad.No, it shifts hard because the guide rod pin is sheared and you are physically sliding the selector rod through the interference fit in the shift finger (or bending something) until it disengaged. Hard to shift into ANY gear could be EVERY synchro being bad, but this is rarely the case unless you ran the bad oil and ate them all up...It's possible, but not probable It randomly went into gear as performed when turning the shafts in neutral.? "Randomly going into gear" or mechanical binding of failed components internally jamming the assembly and allowing the shaft to turn? Shifter was in neutral meaning the forks held the parts in the neutral position but the gears were still in 3rd which could be explained by the spin test aswell since the gears were in that position and it would randomly grab into gear. Or that something is bent or a pin was sheared allowing the shifter to assume a false position, or again internal jamming of parts allowing friction to grab the shaft  and allow it to turn.

 

Solution And Question:
Will this rebuild kit work for our (nissan) T5?Ask the Seller i posted a question to the seller as well but it says he is away till august.....Huzzah! August is almost here! Be Patient or go get another tranny from the JY. The brand for the item is Tremec and as most of you would know is the company that took over the T5 from Borg Warner. This kit goes for pretty cheap compared to my googling of syncro assemblies. Any suggestions are welcomed except those saying "just go with nissan 5speed, or get a mustang t5 or any of that" Suggestions should be on the line of "you should buy from here it's cheaper and better" or "i dont think that is your problem, your problem actually is....". I havent seen many topics on rebuild kits (i seen a few but they target one seller that sells a rebuild kit for $250... which is pretty hefty. If those are hefty prices, skip AAmco, and the  idea of getting a 'freshly rebuilt' unit for your car. Junkyard is your only option at this point, and since you are unwilling to accept any alternates, you look to be SOL. Most guys selling T5's in SoCal seem to be asking $400 for JY Pullouts, so looks like you're crawling the hotline looking for a compatible T5 to replace your bodged up box. I'm with Yasin on the suggestion to just run the Nissan N/A box. FAR easier to source and you aren't willing to pay the price for any of the three T5's  in my storage container (besides, I'm not expected back until January...)

http://www.ebay.com/...6441#vi-content

Edited July 18, 2013 by Tony D

[WaiDai]

Sounds like the shift forks are loose on the selector rods from aggressive shifting and now they slide the selection cones randomly. But to address it in turn:

 

I have a 83 280zx turbo with the Borg Warner T5. Ive considered the routes of putting in a wc t5 (too much customization) wow!, going the nissan 5 speed route (rather not) O.Keeey, and just going to the junkyard and getting a t5 out of another 280zx (i feel safer knowing i have a freshly rebuilt one) At least you could open it up and compare it to see what's bad in yours! AAmco usually can order in one fer ya... got $1500?. If the WC conversion is too much customization, the Z32 Box conversion requires bit of a 'customization' -- probably moreso than a WCT5

 

Story:

 

My 3-4 syncro assembly is bad. When driving home it got harder and harder to shift into 3rd and any gear for that matter  This is not a 3/4 Synchro, "any gear for that matter" means dragging clutch disc, or pins on the rods allowing the shift fork fingers to move but not positively...they can slip so may not get the thing into the gear it's supposed to be in. I got home driving in 1st down my street. Then when i stopped the car and put it into neutral, all i heard was a clicking clacking sound as the car was sitting in neutral.Sounds like bearings knocking about without cages, open it up and take a look. I stepped on the clutch and the sound disappeared.That moves it to the INPUT SHAFT BEARING It would come back as i eased off the clutch then finally it somehow slapped into gear(the noise also stopped) though the shifter was in neutral and i quickly pressed back down on the clutch.Then you weren't in "N" but in gear. Sure sounds like a shift fork slipping. I eased off the clutch again to learn the car was in gear and i couldn't get it out.Sounds like a shift fork sheared the pin holding it to the selector rod. I took apart the transmission to find that the part that is supposed to slide around over the 3/4 syncro was hard to budge. after some very manly hours i was able to push it loose. I lifted the keys and saw some metal shavings inside and it was really difficult to press in the keys and slide the part around.Well, that justifies replacing the 'ground up parts'! now that the transmission itself was in neutral i rotated the shafts to see if the transmission was in neutral and it was until it would randomly grab into gear and let go.At this point, it hasn't occurred that with the selector in "N" but you still being in gear means something is Sheared/Bent dealing with the shift selector rods and the fingers  going over the synchro selector? I checked the gears rotation ratios and determined it to be 3/4. Huh?

 

Symptoms:

Noise from Transmission Bad Bearings

Car hard to shift Define 'Hard' and 'How' the shifter is physically hard to move? Like something is dragging?

Transmission suddenly goes into a gear Disconnected Shift Finger rattling around pushing selector internally engaging synchros randomly. Or mechanical jamming of internal parts giving the appearance of being in gear, but not really. A seized pilot needlebearing does something similar making you think you have a clutch problem because it won't 'disengage'...

Cant get car out of gear Disconnected Shift Finger rattling around pushing selector internally engaging synchros randomly, or jammed/seized component.

Shifter still in neutral Sheared Pin in Shift Finger to Selector Rod, or Bent Shift Fingers 

 

Theory

This appears to me that the noise was possibly the keys having trouble going into gear.No, when the noise goes away with the clutch its an input shaft bearing going bad--classic symptom. The car got into 3rd and was hard to shift out because the syncros are bad.No, it shifts hard because the guide rod pin is sheared and you are physically sliding the selector rod through the interference fit in the shift finger (or bending something) until it disengaged. Hard to shift into ANY gear could be EVERY synchro being bad, but this is rarely the case unless you ran the bad oil and ate them all up...It's possible, but not probable It randomly went into gear as performed when turning the shafts in neutral.? "Randomly going into gear" or mechanical binding of failed components internally jamming the assembly and allowing the shaft to turn? Shifter was in neutral meaning the forks held the parts in the neutral position but the gears were still in 3rd which could be explained by the spin test aswell since the gears were in that position and it would randomly grab into gear. Or that something is bent or a pin was sheared allowing the shifter to assume a false position, or again internal jamming of parts allowing friction to grab the shaft  and allow it to turn.

 

Solution And Question:

Will this rebuild kit work for our (nissan) T5?Ask the Seller i posted a question to the seller as well but it says he is away till august.....Huzzah! August is almost here! Be Patient or go get another tranny from the JY. The brand for the item is Tremec and as most of you would know is the company that took over the T5 from Borg Warner. This kit goes for pretty cheap compared to my googling of syncro assemblies. Any suggestions are welcomed except those saying "just go with nissan 5speed, or get a mustang t5 or any of that" Suggestions should be on the line of "you should buy from here it's cheaper and better" or "i dont think that is your problem, your problem actually is....". I havent seen many topics on rebuild kits (i seen a few but they target one seller that sells a rebuild kit for $250... which is pretty hefty. If those are hefty prices, skip AAmco, and the  idea of getting a 'freshly rebuilt' unit for your car. Junkyard is your only option at this point, and since you are unwilling to accept any alternates, you look to be SOL. Most guys selling T5's in SoCal seem to be asking $400 for JY Pullouts, so looks like you're crawling the hotline looking for a compatible T5 to replace your bodged up box. I'm with Yasin on the suggestion to just run the Nissan N/A box. FAR easier to source and you aren't willing to pay the price for any of the three T5's  in my storage container (besides, I'm not expected back until January...)

http://www.ebay.com/...6441#vi-contentI 

I wondered the same thing about the shift fork but when i took it apart it looked to be ok. The main thing i noticed when i took apart the transmission is that at the 1-2 syncro, the gear that slides between them can slide freely when you press in all the keys. as for the 3-4, it was extremely difficult to slide around and in many cases it got stuck when it finally sat around the keys and would require a lot of force to get it out.

i also noticed that when i was able to move the sliding gear around the 3-4 out to set the car in neutral, i rotated the shafts and found it to be in neutral but it would randomly catch into gear and release. 

the nose i figured were the keys rubbing possibly rubbing on the syncro rings(the bronze one) because it disappeared when the gear got put into 3rd which would be holding the keys down). the noise is gone now since it is in gear. the noise also came from within the transmission and not the bellhousing. i can record a video of the keys and what is going on when trying to move that sliding gear around.

 

My options are still open. thanks for the input about the wct5 vs the z32 routes. it seems like a bit of work for me to work on either at the moment so im saving for that project for next summer. 

 

yes it is august, and it's not like i have been sitting around not looking for other sellers. i could buy from other websites but this is a tremec product and may be better quality than other sellers. I said hefty in price as compared to the link i provided. If the unit i provided is genuine tremec and it sells for that price as compared to other sellers, then why pay for something that is more than double the cost for possibly something of worse quality? I will be doing my own labor so the cost of rebuilding a transmission with the product in the link would be the price of that product which is much cheaper than a trans from the JY and would be rebuilt unlike the JY unit. 

 

Thanks for your diagnosis. its really helping me understand transmissions better. I never, never, never opened a transmission in my life until now so its great to hear the different possibilities. im not ruling out anything you said for the diagnosis but im waiting for more feedback from you that pertain to what i just described in this post.

[Tony D]

The input bearing is not in the bellhousing. That is the THROWOUT bearing and usually emits a high pitched squeal directly opposite the times you say you hear your low rumbling noise.

 

What you explained was classic input gear noise. It can't be related to syncros as they are not rotating when IN gear, and the car NO moving. In fact, they aren't moving unless the car is moving. and then, there is no relative motion.

 

A Counter Gear Bearing would make noise at a different time, and could be detected from the input bearing by declutching while coasting down.

[Xnke]

The T5 will also make that noise when it has a synchro almost engaged, such as if the baulk ring is wedged into the selector hub. Then the hub rattles on the engagement teeth. I've never seen any other transmission do that, but I have seen two non-world-class T5's do it.

 

The fabrication required to install the Z32 box involves sourcing an adaptor kit, having the bellhousing machined, a shifter bracket machined, the transmission mount modified to fit, and a new driveshaft.

 

The WC conversion involves getting a FORD world-class T5, bolting the Nissan bellhousing to it, removing the Ford tailshaft housing, welding the Nissan tailshaft housing to get the extra meat in there when the tailshaft bushing is machined out in order to fit the larger WC tailshaft bushing, and reinstalling all of that PLUS A SHIFTER WITH POSITIVE SHIFT STOPS! Then it's down to changing the driveshaft front yoke, or getting a driveshaft made. A Chevy or Jeep T5 won't bolt up to the Nissan bellhousing.

[Tony D]

On the tailshaft housing, that seems like a lot of work compared to putting a new driveshaft with Ford Yoke (and Ford Spline on the Clutch Disc) and making an adapter for the crossmember mount. Why do you need a Nissan Tailshaft? For shifter positioning?

 

It's good to know the Ford T5 pattern fits the Nissan Bellhousing. When JeffP ordered his Tremec TKO, we had to weld tabs on the Nissan Bellhousing and weld meat into other spots to allow drilling and tapping proper patterns to allow it to bolt up, And on that I think he just put a yoke on the driveshaft he was having made. 

 

But with a stock setup, and no plans to run 400+ HP, why not replace like for like.

 

Synchros not totally engaged could be due to that bent / sheared shift fork... Would explain the popping into and out of gear as well. Incomplete engagement of the synchro will "pop" in and out.... Worn Synchro will do it, but you can usually hold it in gear with a bungee-cord force pretty easily. But if the fork was in the wrong place, or moving....

Edited July 20, 2013 by Tony D

[WaiDai]

would you say if it were the input bearing would the noise be consistent or could it sound like something is getting knocked around? imagine a shard of metal in the case getting hit around (not a consistent rhythm). with the clutch in there is no noise then as i release it you can hear that non consistent noise. when i took it apart and saw how the keys didnt seat themselves very nicely i assumed they were getting smacked around by the syncro as it was partially engaged. 

i dont want to drag out this too long as if im not listening to you (tony) but yes that is basically my final question whether if the noise should be a consistent one or if it could have what i explained. and what about the gears being set the neutral and the shaft when rotated would randomly catch back into gear? 

as a note of progress...
my brother (a mechanic unlike me)
is in town and will take a look at it. he's a 90's car guy soooo hopefully he can point out what you explained to me.

thanks again tony for the knowledge!

as for xnike
that explanation was very very straight forward and what i needed! there are too many threads that only go halfway in explanation, kind as if the guy figured out all that is needed and stopped posting. however i did think the same thing as tony, why not just leave the tailhousing and get a new driveshaft made. 

[Tony D]

Glossary of Terms is the first section in any engineering paper. Engaged/Disengaged in/out consistent/intermittent.... What is "is"?

 

Push the clutch pedal down to the floor, hold it there. With the transmission in Neutral.

 

This stops the clutch disc from turning the input shaft through disengagement of the pressure plate clamping forces.

 

As this happens the noise you heard (variously described by others as "rumbling" "grinding" "puttering" "crashing" "rough rolling" "loud hissing" "roaring" "rough popping" "rattling", etc.) will taper to a silent point.

 

Bring your foot up to feather-engage the clutch disc and start it turning, the ONLY component turning internally to the transmission is the Input Shaft. It has a bearing on it. It will start to make a bad bearing noise because there is a load on it, spinning the input shaft and the outer race remaining stationary.

 

If you have left it in gear when you do the, with the back jacked up and blocked...tires will turn but the countershaft bearings then start spinning. It will make the noise exponentially louder if they are bad.

 

In 4th gear, it power transfers directly front to back in the tranny--input and output bearings when clutch is turning.

 

The only item that could really make the noise that goes away with the clutch depressed is the input shaft bearing.

 

Bizarre cases notwithstanding I've found if it quacks, swims in water, has a flat bill, and answers to "Daffy" chances are it is a duck, and not a giraffe.

 

The noise you describe may simply be from the wrong lube or a bad input bearing...but obviously the rest of he works is fooked as well! So it's more than a rehearing to get this one going. Have you gone through the power flows in the FSM for the transmission? (I don't remember if it covers them or not.) that identifies what is doing what in each gear to troubleshoot what noises mean what.

 

It's midnight, and I gotta go see dead Uncle Ho early in the morning, so I'm signing off for now.

[Connor280ZX]

Werent Nissan Z transmissions designed to use a slightly thinner oil for the transmissions than standard oil today? Got my fluid changed at your everyday tranny shop, and after that, changing gears became much more difficult in terms of how easily it would go into gear. Was also very crunchy when cold. Talked to my local Datsun specialist and that's how I found out about thinner oil that was used back in the day off the assembly line. His solution was half gear oil, half ATF. Tranny shifts with ease now.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Connor280ZX

[Leon]

Werent Nissan Z transmissions designed to use a slightly thinner oil for the transmissions than standard oil today? Got my fluid changed at your everyday tranny shop, and after that, changing gears became much more difficult in terms of how easily it would go into gear. Was also very crunchy when cold. Talked to my local Datsun specialist and that's how I found out about thinner oil that was used back in the day off the assembly line. His solution was half gear oil, half ATF. Tranny shifts with ease now.

 

Thinner? Not really. I bet they used GL-5 fluid in your transmission instead of GL-4. That's what affected your shift quality, as GL-5 is more "slippery" thus does not let the syncros do their job. I'd get a true GL-4 fluid instead of mixing up different grades of gear lube.

[WaiDai]

Thank you very very very much Tony for the explanation. Very detailed and easy to understand. Aug 5th is around the corner and my family (brother) is getting ready to head back home so i can get back to spending time on the car. Seriously tony thanks, i takes hours to read the detail you explained in a few minutes. my next post in this will be an exact target on whats wrong and what i did to fix this using what i learned from you and the good ole fsm... 

Connor, ive seen many threads about fluid types through google. im sure you could find the info in there. (saying this cause your question really through off this post)