Mikelly Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 Gang, I'm gonna dry sump my motor and I'd like to start a thread concerning what worked for folks and in WHAT SPECIFIC TYPE of USE. That last part is critical. My car with the 383 stroker was pulling nearly 1.6Gs one event last year. It's critical to get it right on the oiling side of the house. So please add what worked for you and what you would do different now... I currently have an ARE pan that I got from Marc Icard, along with the fitting that attaches to the stock LS3 oilpump. Beyond that, this is the last part of the project that I simply haven't mapped out yet. Cary McCallester added a treasure trove of info to my project thread, and that got me thinking... Bring on the ideas gang... Tank size/design/volume, pump type/belt type, everything you did to convert your project from we to dry! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 The 2013 vette grand sport is supposed to have a factory dry sump system.My suggestion would be oem chevy parts on the motor. Then build my own plumbing,tank & cooler.I would put the tank where the battery used to be.At 1.6 g are you hitting the gym? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 17, 2013 Author Share Posted November 17, 2013 The dry sump systems sold by GM and installed on every z06 from the c6 platform forward and the grand sports starting in 2010 are not true drysump systems and according to a GM engineer this past year at the NCM event at VIR they fail at 1.3 gs. My car pulls well over that in corners. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 Who built those yellow race vettes?They would know.Sounds like custom oil pan,multi stage pump and toothed belt time + mucho $ in Earl's plumbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 17, 2013 Author Share Posted November 17, 2013 Pratt and Miller built those cars and they were tube chassis racecars. I actually know somebody that owns one of the former C5Rs and the systems were identical to the C6R. Whole point of this thread is to find what others have done and what hurdles they had, what ways they were able to find solutions for less, or what creative ways they mounted tanks and utilized hardware! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 http://aviaid.com/ There probably is not many members here that have even looked at a dry sump installation .Unless you find some good used parts I am guessing $4k to $6k .Canton is showing a pan for an ls app. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We Bad Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 The Peterson tank shown is 18" tall (exclusive of fittings) and 6" in diameter. It is mounted on an aluminum plate (along with the oil filter and vacuum pump breather tank) and hung on a hand truck for use in a dyno room. Note the sight gage (complete with decorative tropical drink umbrella). It is extremely important to have a sight gage in place during dyno tests. It is the only way to monitor how well the engine drains back internally. It doesn't matter how many thousands of dollars the dry sump system cost, if too much oil is being pumped to the valvetrain and it is collecting in the valve covers, the tank can still run dry with catastrophic results. The site gage is the only sure way to measure how much oil remains in the engine while running. Of course, the site gage is removed before installation in the race car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 After much research and discussion with a number of vendors I went with www.nutterracingengines.com for the pump and gear drive. Still researching the oil tank!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 The Nutter pumps look pretty good to me. I was looking down that road before I went with the auto verdi pump. I still need to add a complete write up for this thread but from what I have researched you need at least 12 quarts (3 gallons of oil) to make sure you have no issues. So that means you probably want a 4 gallon tank unless you want to try and run a 3 gallon very full. For tanks I like the Petersons but many others are nice. Okay, so here goes. I have a friend I race with who has a baffled pan, accusump (the large one), and the full length windage tray. This engine combo has been in various cars over the years and has the performance has increased so have oil related problems. He's now on his third oil related rebuild. Given this I was really starting to lean towards a dry sump system for my car as the cornering performance will be quite high (slicks and aero). I also wanted to be able to lower the engine because of the reduced sump depth. In my case the pan ended up being 2 inches deep so the engine and tranny will be 3 inches lower than normal. I had heard of the GM factory system used on the ASA engines and looked into it. The system uses an external single stage scavenge pump and the stock location LS pressure pump. Like all dry sump systems this will require an external tank and a special drive system. It comes in either a serpentine style or an HTD belt style with a special ATI damper. I'm pretty sure Kevko makes the pan for these and Razor makes the pumps. The cool part is that it bolts to the AC brackets and is all figured out. But in digging deeper it became clear that while it works on dirt it's not completely up to snuff for pavement. You can upgrade this system with more scavenge and/or a new pump that adds a pressure stage so you don't need to use the stock style pump. While I was thinking about this I looked at Aviad and ARE to see what they offered. Both have extensive LS dry sump offerings and price sheets. Aviad's info (http://www.aviaid.com/pdfs/1205-115_ls1-ls6.pdf) and ARE's (http://www.drysump.com/DrySumpInstructions.htm). On E-bay the ASA systems usually run about $900 and need another $300 to $500 in parts to complete. So given that I decided I would look at what it would take to roll my own system. ARE and Aviad had good recommendations for what was needed and I also looked at the Peterson tech info from their facebook page, which gave me all the info I would need to come up with a design that would work. There are basically two types for dry sump pumps available these days. The gear style and the lobed style, which look like mini roots blowers. The advantages of these designs is increased scavenge. As a general rule once past 3 scavenge stages you will be creating a vacuum in the crankcase, which I'd like to be able to do. For a V8 12 quarts is recommended and it also happens that GM had to add more capacity to the Corvette systems that were having trouble (as well as a tank baffle). So at this point I have the following: budget: $1500 or less pump: 3 to 5 stage tank: 4 gallon drive: ATI spindle or SBC spindle I looked on racing junk, ebay, and Craigslist to see what I could find. I found some complete SBC systems from dirt cars for about $1K, pumps in the $300 to $1K range, and tanks were $150 to $500. The best deals were NASCAR take offs and they usually run a 5 gallon tank and a high end Daily, Auto Verdi, or Peterson pump. I found a good deal on a tank with extra lines for $150 and a complete Auto Verdi pump from a Dodge NASCAR engine, which included all the plumbing up to the tank. The 3 big issues are mounting the pump (which actually ended up being the easiest), driving the pump, and where to mount the tank. Driving the pump inexpensively was the most difficult issue. The ATI damper used on the ASA setup is a high quality piece but more money than I wanted to spend. The plan was to switch to a damper that had the 3 bolt pattern to allow the use of a standard SBC drive mandrel. Not all the dampers have a flat area around the 3 bolt holes to seat the drive mandrel and in the end I bought a Professional Products # 80032 damper for $90.00 at Summit that had the 3 bolt holes and a flat surface. For the drive mandrel I bought a All Star Performance kit from Summit #AAF-ALL31031. This places the dry sump belts in front of the accessory serpentine belt, which give a drive system that looks like this, which is a really trick Daily Engineering dry sump that has an integral pan. , My pump came with a 33 tooth HTD pulley and it's generally recommended to run at 50% crank speed. So for the crank side I found a good deal on a 17 tooth HTD pulley. When rolling your own system I should mention there are two radiuses used for most belts. Those are 7 inches and 9 inches. I couldn't make the 7 inch radius work so 9 it was. BTW, HTD belts are probably a better choice because they have more sizes available. And I found three new ones in the size I needed on ebay for 9.95. Next up was mounting the pump. The Auto Verdi pump I have was intended to be ran on the drivers side but that will interfere with my steering. So I was going to make a "C" out of some 1/2 inch alloy plate I have to mount similar to the ARE setup. And after getting that done changed my mind to using a front motor plate that will also be my FAD (front accessory drive) and strut tower brace. For the pan you could actually just put the scavenge lines into the side of a stock pan and you'd have something very similar to the Kevko pan. I took an f-body pan and removed the sump and will weld some 1/8 alloy to the bottom. In the pan itself I will have a bolt-in baffle that angles towards the scavenge lines and will integrate a scraper. Building this myself saves a lot of money over the ARE LeMans pan I'm copying. One important thing to note is that you need to have scavenge screens on the pump inlets. For a geared pump these are larger and for a lobed pump they are around 75 microns to make sure the housing isn't damaged. For the tank I found a good deal on a 5 gallon Peterson tank. Mine came with mounts, lines, heaters, and breathers and vents. I'm going to mount it on the passenger side footwell and the breather will go into the cowl. This will let me see if there is any blowby from the tank. For safety the tank will have an alloy box built around it but one side will be the passenger door. This will let me open the door and look at a site tube on the side of the tank to check level when the engine is running. To get the oil into the engine there are a number of ways but for a low cost solution I used the port on the front of the block. The fitting I used was $7.00 and it was a 90deg and it may be able to use a straight version. It is a #8 male JIC x m16x1.5 see link below. Note the #9068-08-16 includes an o ring that you will need. http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/9068_JIC_x_Metric_p/9068.htm You will need to block off the stock pump's oil port. This can be done a number of ways. The cheapest is probably to put in a small freeze plug and cover with a piece of alloy that bolts to the stock pump holes. Or Wegner makes a cool fitting that bolts on and squirts oil on the timing chain (Wegner Motorsport Part # WA0215). http://s41657.storefront-solutions.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=30. The front oil port will route the oil down the side of the block and through the stock oil filter. If you use the rear port you will have to study what will happen to the oil trying to backfill to the front. Be sure you understand what happens to the oil at the rear. There is a plastic barbell shaped piece that blocks the oil passage. In my case I didn't use the barbell as my pan was too short for a filter. I am using a peterson 400 series mesh filter that is connected to the pressure outlet on the dry sump pump and then this goes to an oil cooler. Below is a link to a diagram of the LS oiling system: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-tech/2450896-oil-temp-sensor-adaptor.html My system has 4 scavenge stages and 1 pressure (called a 5-stage system). The extra scavenge line will go to the valley. In order to keep the vacuum level from getting too high I'm using a vacuum regulator. Peterson has a really nice one that has a really nice price (http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/Peterson-Fluid-Systems-Adjustable-Vacuum-Regulator/2677011/10002/-1) or you can use a much cheaper regulator (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/CDI-CONTROL-DEVICES-VacuumPressure-Relief-5Z765?Pid=search). Remember this is only the way I built my one of a kind system. A big priority was to keep it inexpensive and this may not be the best route for everyone. Mistakes are expensive. For me the complexity is really worth it to not have to worry about oil pressure and being able to lower the engine and transmission a significant amount. I will be logging this against g-force to make sure there are no problems. Hope this helps, Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We Bad Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Very nice! For the benefit of those who have never seen the inside of one of these pumps, this is a photo of the lobed rotors in the scavenge section (this from a Barnes pump). . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Tech tips from Peterson's facebook page. These contain a lot of useful info that will help in understanding how to make a dry sump work for you. Tech Tip: Differences between our screw in breathers, pop offs and vacuum regulators? We get asked this question pretty frequently so we figured it's worth covering. The 08-0415 is a screw in breather with -12 port threads on the bottom and an element on top. The tube is baffled with the same press in baffle as our 08-0410 breather can. This is installed in valve covers or on oil tanks to vent them to atmosphere. The 08-0450 appears from the outside to be the same part as the above 08-0415 but is actually completely different. The 08-0450 pop off has a valve inside with a spring that opens at roughly 1-2 pounds of positive pressure. Under vacuum the valve will seal and and keep vacuum below the seal and in the engine. However, in the event of losing a piston, etc (any event that would create positive crankcase pressure) the valve will open and hopefully allow the pressure out before the motor starts to push seals out and make a real mess. The 08-0455 is our vacuum regulator. It is designed to regulate the amount of vacuum inside the engine from anywhere from 2" of vacuum to 29.7" of vacuum. This operates off a similar valve design as the 08-0450 but incorporates a diaphragm that flexes and allows air into the engine to regulate the vacuum. This valve is not designed to allow air out (positive pressure) only regulate the amount of vacuum inside. If you need to regulate vacuum but are worried about being able to get rid of positive crank case pressure we recommend you run both the 08-0455 vacuum regulator and the 08-0450 pop off. Both can be installed in valve covers or lifter valley block off plates depending on the engine set up. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Weekly Tech Tip: One important things to keep in mind when setting up a dry sump system is the distance you mount the pump from the drive system on the crankshaft. We recommend running an HTD gear setup over a Gilmer simply because of the fact that HTD belts come in many more available lengths and it's easier to get a belt on a set up. Where as with Gilmer style gearing the belts only come in 1.5" increments, if you don't fall into one of those increments your in trouble come belt time. The ideal range of center to center measurements when mounting an oil pump is between 7" and 9". Center to center is determined by measuring from the center of the crankshaft to the center of the oil pump shaft, once everything is mounted. That's where the majority of the belt increments are available in HTD form. That being said we understand that mounting the pump with the above center to center measurements is not always a possibility and 90% of the time we can still get a belt to fit the odd ball mounting configurations that some race cars require. We can usually manipulate the ratio between the crank and pump pulleys so that the ratio stays with in the operating range on the pump most importantly and makes getting a belt on it feasible . Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tech tip: Tuning oil pressure In most cases the desired level of oil pressure can be achieved by simply adjusting the the bypass assembly located on the side of our oil pumps. To increase the the pressure the pump creates, break the jam nut free and thread the adjuster INTO the oil pump. To decrease oil pressure break the jam nut free and thread the adjuster OUT away from the oil pump. We have a few other tricks up our sleeves to help manipulate the pressure the pump creates. If your feeding your pump with a -16 and you don't want as much oil pressure, you can step down to a -12 which will decrease the volume of oil the pump produces. Another trick we use is our bypass assembly is a dual spring setup on our oil pumps. We run an inner and outer spring underneath the jam-nut/adjuster assembly on our pump. If the pump has sufficient oil pressure at idle but creates too much on the top end this can usually be remedied by removing the INNER bypass spring and running only the outer. This usually correlates to a 10-20 pound pressure drop on the top end. If the above measures are taken and the oil pressure is still to high for your liking we do also offer a remote relief option that is plumbed into the pressure out line of the pump and is more than capable of getting your oil pressure to whichever level you would like it at. If you have any technical questions as always feel free to call our sales/tech dept @ 1-800-926-7867 and we can walk you through any questions you may have. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tech tip: This is probably our most popular tech question. What do I set the level of my oil tank at? In our tanks we've found that the sweet spot for the oil level is right around 1/2 to 2/3rd's full with the engine running at right around 3000 rpm. This give you a true reading as to what the engine is holding in the top end. We recommend dumping about 75% of the total capacity into the system to start. So if you've got a 8 quart tank (2 gallons) , dump 6 quarts into the tank, fire the car and adjust your level from there. If the tank is too full it will definitely tell you in the form of blowing oil, if the tank doesn't have enough oil in it you'll have oil pressure fluctuations as the pick up point in the oil tank is being uncovered and drawing air into the pump. We do offer a cnc billet dipstick to check the level in the oil tank. Simply unscrew the lid drop the dipstick inside, check the level, toss the dipstick back in the tool box and replace your lid. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday tech tip: Tank sizing 101 In most applications the more oil you have in the system the better, especially if the application is prone to high oil temperatures and extended periods of use. In most road race, circle track and off road truck applications the smallest tank we recommend running is a 3 gallon capacity. Most of the dirt late model applications run our center venting oil tank in 3 or 4 gallon form. Some of our Nascar spec oil tanks hold between 5 - 7 gallons of oil. In the off-road environment we actually designed a specific baffling in the oil tank to improve oil control with the trucks when they get in to jump and whoop sections. In most drag applications the smallest tank we recommend running is a 2 gallon, similar to our very popular 7" drag tank. We offer that tank with an integrated catch can or without. Running a catch can on the oil tank is a nice feature as it cuts down on the amount of plumbing, we all know how much fun plumbing can be. In some of the extreme drag applications we recommend running a 3 gallon oil tank just as a fail safe to be sure you have enough oil in the system at all times. When running above average oil pressures and have aftermarket blocks that hold more oil in the top end away from the pan the more oil you have in the system the better. Each application is always unique and can require special attention to oil pump sizing and tank sizing as well. If you have any questions about your particular set up in your vehicle don't hesitate to give us a call, we would be glad to offer any advise we can to help. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday tech tip: Getting the correct belt on a pump can sometimes be a challenge. We recommend running HTD pulleys to make this problem a little less challenging. HTD belts come in a variety of lengths versus a Gilmer style set up. You can also fine tune the pump ratio easier with an HTD setup due to the fact there are more tooth counts available on both the crank side gear and pump pulley. Ideally try to keep your center to center measurement between the crank snout and the center of the oil pump shaft between 7 and 9 inches. That's where the majority of the available belt lengths fall and makes getting a belt on the application much easier. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday Tech tip: When searching for a vacuum leak it can be frustrating when you find it's your front or rear main seal or camshaft seal that's the culprit. Many dry sump systems will benefit from a high quality double lipped teflon seal. A flipped around standard seal may work well under vacuum but we all know what happens when the motor is turned off. The seal relaxes and makes a mess. Not tomention that under vacuum the seal could be allowing unfiltered air and debris into the engine. We carry Tri-Tec double lipped teflon seals and have now for ten years. We cover most of the standard seals for small block chevy, big block chevy, ls1's, small block fords, big block fords, Mopar R3 blocks and the R4/R5 block. We also carry Jesel seals, Danny B belt drive seals and comp cams belt drive seals. If we don't have the seal your looking for we can get in-touch with TriTec and see if they have anything available. These seals are designed to live in the high vacuum environment a properly set up dry sump creates. They're no different to install rather than they need to be installed dry. These are the same seals ran by the majority of Nascar, top end dirt engine and drag engine builders. If your freshening an engine and are tired of having a weeping seal when the motor is off , give us a call and we can get you set up with what you need. We'll be glad to take measurements off seals etc to be sure were sending you the correct part. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday Tech tip: How much vacuum can our pumps pull? Well it depends on quite a few factors. How many stages the oil pump is, the size of the scavenge sections, speed the oil pump is turning and how well the motor is sealed all make a huge impact. We had a customer call yesterday with a 637 cubic inch big block chevy that with our 5 stage drag pump pulled 18" at idle with the pump only. He then put a vacuum pump on it and increased it to 24". That being said most engines are happy right around 10-12" of vacuum, unless they're set up to run higher levels. We also have one of our R4 Wetvac pumps in one of our sales staff's drag car and it will pull 14" of vacuum throughout the lap. About the easiest way to explain it is the pumps can only be as good as the engine builder. Meaning if the motor is sealed up incredibly well, the pump will work very well and probably exceed expectations. If the motor has vacuum leaks in a few spots, scavenge lines that are not assembled properly or perhaps the engine has the incorrect seals installed. This can all affect how much vacuum a pump will pull. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tech Tip: Differences between our screw in breathers, pop offs and vacuum regulators? We get asked this question pretty frequently so we figured it's worth covering. The 08-0415 is a screw in breather with -12 port threads on the bottom and an element on top. The tube is baffled with the same press in baffle as our 08-0410 breather can. This is installed in valve covers or on oil tanks to vent them to atmosphere. The 08-0450 appears from the outside to be the same part as the above 08-0415 but is actually completely different. The 08-0450 pop off has a valve inside with a spring that opens at roughly 1-2 pounds of positive pressure. Under vacuum the valve will seal and and keep vacuum below the seal and in the engine. However, in the event of losing a piston, etc (any event that would create positive crankcase pressure) the valve will open and hopefully allow the pressure out before the motor starts to push seals out and make a real mess. The 08-0455 is our vacuum regulator. It is designed to regulate the amount of vacuum inside the engine from anywhere from 2" of vacuum to 29.7" of vacuum. This operates off a similar valve design as the 08-0450 but incorporates a diaphragm that flexes and allows air into the engine to regulate the vacuum. This valve is not designed to allow air out (positive pressure) only regulate the amount of vacuum inside. If you need to regulate vacuum but are worried about being able to get rid of positive crank case pressure we recommend you run both the 08-0455 vacuum regulator and the 08-0450 pop off. Both can be installed in valve covers or lifter valley block off plates depending on the engine set up. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday-ish Tech tip: Maintenance on our oil pumps. Our pumps are relatively low maintenance items. The only real maintenance to speak of on the pumps would be to keep an eye on the torque of the eight 1/4" twelve point draw rod nuts that hold the pump bodies together. The torque spec for them is 80 INCH pounds (between 6 - 7 foot pounds). Check them initially after you get the motor hot the first time and every few months after. If you notice seepage from in-between the bodies this is usually a sign the draw rod nuts are loosing up from the heat cycles. One of our Team Peterson members Jimmy Owens put over 1500+ laps on a pump in a season without a rebuild. He recently sent it in to us for a check up and absolutely nothing was needed outside of a basic freshen up (bearings and seals). Scavenge filters save pumps in the event of an engine failure! Please use them, you'll thank us if that terrible event ever happens to you. As long as the oil pump doesn't see an engine failure, you can look forward to years of trouble free service from your Peterson pump. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday Tech Tip: Breather can plumbing When plumbing a breather can the smallest line we recommend running is a -12. The smaller the line the higher velocity the air travels in the line, the more oil gets carried along into the can. The opposite is also true, the larger the line the slower the air speed equals less oil in your catch can. Running the line slightly uphill can also help by allowing the oil to condense in the line and drain back into the dry sump tank or engine instead of into the catch can. Be sure you don't have any dips in the line where oil can accumulate. We do quite a few large completely custom catch cans for drag, road race and circle track applications. If one of our standard tanks doesn't quite fit your needs feel free to call us and we can get a custom can done for a reasonable price. Another little known fact is you can also make fitting changes to our standard catch cans for NO CHARGE as long as the fittings are located in our standard positions. Catch cans are usually build to order (commonly a 2 week wait time) so having us weld a different fitting onto a catch can for you isn't a problem. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday Tech Tip: Do your Pan Scavenge Lines suck? Today we are going to give you a tip that can save your engine and a lot of frustration. We have noticed as pumps have become more efficient at pulling a vacuum in the crankcase we have had customers experience an issue when using hose on the scavenge lines that is not rated for vacuum. The scavenge hoses running from the pan to the pump can suck close stopping the pump from removing oil from the engine. This problem in turn dries out the tank because no oil is being returned and keeps the pump from lubricating the engine. The line running from the tank to the pump is not as big a concern because in a properly running system this hose will always be full of oil which will keep it from closing. Your pan scavenge lines on the other hand are moving air and oil and are not all completely full most of the time. We have unfortunately had customers lose some very expensive engines from simply choosing the wrong hose for their scavenge lines. So what to do about it? Make sure when selecting your hose you buy a quality stainless braided hose that has a good vacuum rating. If you want lightweight then look for a hose that is made of Teflon instead of rubber for it’s inner lining such as the hose made by Brown & Miller. Any good plumbing company should have the vacuum rating for their hose and should make it available to you in their catalog, on their web site ,or if you give them a call or email. Yes it will probably cost a bit more than other hose but it is a small amount compared to losing your race motor from oil starvation. This is a hard problem to diagnose because it happens in race conditions at higher RPMs. Once the car gets back to an idle the hoses will open back up and return the oil back to the tank and it will appear as if everything is ok. The biggest symptom to look for is erratic oil pressure part way into the race. As the tank empties from not having oil returned to it, the pressure section of the pump will begin to suck some air and cavitate and you will see this show up on the gauge as sudden oil pressure changes. If you have any questions or concerns, give our tech guys a call at (800) 926-7867 and they can help you out. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday Tech Tip: Pump pulley speeds: In most drag racing applications your want to spin the pump as quickly as possible without exceeding the pumps internal limitations. Spinning the pump too fast can cause cavitation. There's a pump speed window that we set oil pumps to run within, this window varies by each engines individual max rpm range . An engine that spins 10k will only need a ratio of roughly 50-53 percent of engine speed. Where as an engine that only spins 6500 will need a ratio in the upper 60 percentile or lower 70's. In some diesel pull truck applications we can get as high as 80 percent pump ratios just because the motors don't turn high rpms at all. The maximum pump speed we like to see with our R4 pumps is around 5500 rpm. With our R4 it's not the rotors that cavitate, they very efficient in their design. Above 5500 rpm the bearing longevity is what becomes a concern. Bearings support the oil pump shafts in each body, if they go out or tie up the pump shaft will scar and could possibly cause the shaft to snap completely. Just to be safe we commonly set them up around 5200 RPM pump speed just to err on the side of safety with your engines lively hood in our hands. The other thing you MUST take into consideration is making sure we can get a belt on the set up. We can change pulley sizes keeping the same ratio between the two just to get a belt to fit nicely in the pump adjustment that's available. In dirt circle track bell-housing mount applications the crank gear is nearly always a 22 tooth HTD. We run anywhere from 38 - 44 tooth set ups depending on what the engine is telling us through out the race. The common belt sizes with this are either a 640mm HTD or a 632mm HTD belt for a Bert/Brinn setup. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday Tech Tip: Choosing the proper micron rating in filters : Primary Oil Filters: Micron ratings from LOOSEST(largest particle) TO TIGHTEST (smallest particle): 100 micron (.0039 particle) 75 micron (.0029 particle) 60 micron (.0023 particle) 45 micron (.0018 particle) 35 micron (.0013 particle) 10 micron (.0003 particle) In most applications the primary filter between the oil pump and the engine needs to be a 60 micron which lets a .0023 particle through the filter. This is plenty small enough to pass through most race/street engines. The reason we don't recommend running a tighter screen (35,45 micron) as the primary filter is that if the filter can't flow what the engines wants it will be come a restriction and eventually cause oil starvation. Too loose of a screen (75,100 micron) and you'll allow large particles through that will not pass through bearing tolerances and scar them. We have created a 10 micron cellulose element that flows incredibly well with minimal pressure drop for our 400 series filters. These elements filter much tighter than the stainless but unfortunately are not reusable and must be trashed after a maximum of two oil changes. It was just a nice option to have available to our customers that wanted to filter the oil down finer than a stainless element can provide. Scavenge return filters: For the scavenge return line to the oil tank we recommend running a 75 or 100 micron. Reason being is this filters purpose is to solely keep the oil tank clean in event of an engine failure and save the pressure section of the oil pump from digesting debris. The return filter also acts as a deaeration device helping to separate the air and the oil before it hits our baffle system inside the oil tank. In high rpm, long duration racing such as Dirt Late Models this can be very beneficial and spurred us to create our filter box oil tanks that incorporate the return oil filter onto the side of the oil tank. Fuel Filters: For fuel we recommend running a 45 micron filter. We also make a 10 micron cellulose element that can be used for both fuel or oil. Many of the top NASCAR teams have been running our cellulose elements with great success over the last year since the elements release. If your running methanol we recommend running a 60 micron filter because anything tighter and the natural fibers that exist in the alcohol fuel will clog the filter element up in no time. Bypass vs. Non-bypass In fuel applications no bypass is needed, the super low viscosity of fuel allows it to pass freely through tighter screens (read above). When it comes to oil filters the bypass vs no bypass is more of a personal / engine builders preference. Our bypass operates off a 20 pound pressure differential from inlet to outlet. So for example the inlet must be at 70 psi and the outlet must be at 50 psi or less for the bypass to kick open and allow oil through the element (unfiltered) rather than forcing in through the screen and potentially collapsing the element. We personally recommend running a bypass as the only time it may open would be on cold start up when the oil is very thick or if you've got some damage occurring in the engine causing the filter to become somewhat restricted, I'd rather have some unfiltered oil going through my engine than none at all. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday Tech Tip: How to plumb a dry sump system? The common set up on a 5 stage dry sump pumps would look like this: P standing for pressure section, S standing for Scavenge 12 16 - - OUT (pressure out to motor, scav out to tank) 16 12 12 12 12 -- IN (pressure in from tank, scav in from pan) P S S S S The Pressure section plumbing explained: We commonly run a -16 to feed the pressure section to act as a fail safe, to ensure the pressure section always has more than enough oil supplied to it at all times. If the dry sump tank is more than three feet away from the oil pump, you'll need to run a -16. Reason being is that a -12 in some cases cannot flow the amount of oil the pump can/will demand. Running a -12 for over 3 feet can cause the pressure section to cavitate, leading to inconsistent oil pressure and erratic unexplainable drops in oil pressure. By running a 16 you completely negate the issue. We also use the feed line size to tailor the flow of the oil pump, if the pump creates too much pressure with a -16 feeding it, you can size the feed down to a -12 and reduce the flow thus lowering your oil pressure. Scavenge section plumbing explained: Out of the oil pan we recommend always running a -12 minimum. In some of our dirt late model applications we have found a significant decrease in oil temperature by running a -16 in the rear pickup in the oil pan. We have also seen an increase of over 4" of vacuum in a drag race application by switching all pickups in the oil pan to -16 lines. The minimum amount of scavenge lines you want running to the oil pan is two, the more the better. On a typical five stage application we recommend running three scavenges to the oil pan and running one line up to the lifter valley to scavenge any oil that can get held there. We have seen that some billet blocks can hold 8 QUARTS of oil in the lifter valley, so a scavenge up there is definitely beneficial. You can get away with running a -10 sized line to the lifter valley scavenge as sometimes squeezing a big -12 line up there isn't feasible. NEVER T or Y scavenge lines - - reason being is if one line is pulling air while the line coming off the T is trying to pull oil the pump will only pull air. The pump will pull the path of least resistance 100% of the time, if you give the pump a chance to pull air over oil it will do so, leaving all the oil where it is. It will be much more beneficial to just add a stage to the oil pump. Pasted from <https://www.facebook.com/pages/Peterson-Fluid-Systems/72277576334?v=wall&viewas=0> Tuesday Tech Tip: Setting belt tension & HTD belts (radius tooth) vs. Gilmer belts (square tooth). Unlike v-belts and serpentine style belts, toothed belts such as HTD and Gilmer's don't need to be overly tight. The teeth on the belt do the work, not the tension. The rule of thumb to check belt tension is you should be able to grab the belt in the center between the two pulleys and turn it 90 degrees so the teeth are facing you. If you can turn it 180 so the teeth are pointing straight up at you, its too loose. If you can't turn it 90 degrees, its too tight. Over tightening belts can cause excessive belt walking and occasionally premature pulley wear. When we set up a dry sump system we use the HTD style belt probably 3 to 1 over Gilmer. The reason being is there are a ton more available belt lengths in HTD versus Gilmer. A Gilmer belt is only manufactured in 1.5" increments, if you don't happen to fall into one of those increments your stuck with a custom belt. Where as with an HTD belt they have a lot more flexibility in terms of available lengths. There is also quite a few more tooth counts available with HTD's for pulleys, so fine tuning a pump speed is more doable as well. 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tube80z Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 In the above tech tips there is mention made of Brown & Miller plumbing. This company is one of a number that make high performance AN hose and fittings. This is not interchangeable between brands and/or the older style of braided hose. When you purchase used parts you may be able to mix and match complete hose assemblies but not ends. It would be good to download the BMRS catalog, Earls, Aeroquip, and Goodridge and see what they offer. For me I chose to use BMRS for my entire car as it is widely available in ebay. BMRS hose typically has crimped on fittings but the collars can be cut off and the fittings reused. All you need is a new crimp collar or you can use a BMRS reusable fitting. What I found but most hydraulic shops won't tell you is that almost all of them use the same AN hose crimper. It's a small unit that has a micrometer stop built into it and the OD of the crimp is what is critical. This info is found in the catalogs for the major manufactures. If you're local shop refuses to touch another brand of hose there are a number of companies where you can ship the parts that will crimp them for you. And if you don't want to clean the hose yourself many will do this for a small fee. Hope this helps you understand more of what's needed to build your own dry sump system or be able to reuse ebay plumbing. For the price it's hard to turn down. My entire car is now plumbed in BMRS and it was done for less than $300. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) Cary This is all great info... I have a "new" challenge... With my headers on, the oil pan fittings have exactly 1 3/4 inch of clearance on the passenger side... I'm going to require some very tight fitting plumbing. Everything on the scavange side is -12 which is BIG... I'm looking for suggestions guys!! Mike Edited November 20, 2013 by Mikelly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Mike, For a suggestion download http://www.bmrs.net/BMRS_hose_catalog_lo-res.pdf and take a look at the swivel banjo fittings. Those will be the lowest depth that could come out of the pan. You will need to clock them to allow for room for the hoses. A swept 90 would probably be too close to the headers in this case. What pan are you using again? Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 20, 2013 Author Share Posted November 20, 2013 Cary it's the ARE 1005S... Has three scavange fittings on the right side. This is essentially the pan: http://www.drysump.com/corvpan2.htm I will be blocking off the front port and not using it since I'll be using the pressure stage at the fitting on the driver's rear. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 If memory serves that has screw in filters. You could replace those with banjos or perhaps even the swept 90 with filter screen. i think those would gain some space but the banjo will be the shortest. This low profile fitting is another idea, http://www.westernperformanceonline.com/XRP-Ultra-Low-Profile-O-Ring-Boss-90-Degree-Adapter--Aluminum_p_586.html Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We Bad Posted November 26, 2013 Share Posted November 26, 2013 Lots of good information here, (even if you are not running a gen I small block), including a chapter on lubrication (both wet and dry sumps). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 Keep it coming gang... GOOD INFO in this thread!!! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
We Bad Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 I use this book, as does the engine shop I work at. http://rehermorrison.com/engine-book/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted December 7, 2013 Author Share Posted December 7, 2013 It looks like my oil pan is going to have to be altered in order to make the header clear the lines. There simply isnt a -12 line fitting combo that is 1 inch or less. Gonna have to get some welding done to the pan... Spoke with the folks at XRP, Fragola and BMRS. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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