lcbusa1300 Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Recently picked up a 78 Z and trying to clean up the bay a little. I stripped down the intake manifold and had it hot tanked. From what I've read, deleting the EGR and evap canister has no consequences, so I did away with them. Thought she would run like a champ with all the freshening up, but no. I've got it all back together and it's running terrible. Running rich and black smoking like a chimney. I pulled the new plugs out and they are caked in carbon that quick. So i'm thinking I did something wrong with deleting the EGR and canister delete. Can someone confirm what i've done is right/wrong? Here's what i'm not sure of... 1) The vacuum line that went from the distributor to the canister, I rerouted to the manifold. 2) I capped off the line from the throttle body when deleting the EGR. Is that correct? 3) I think I have the TPS set properly but if not could that cause it to run that rich and foul plugs? 4) Also, it sat without the manifolds on for two weeks, maybe some moisture got in there. And also some pb blaster got in there from trying to removed some broken exhaust studs. 5) I don't think this would effect it, but I tried to start it with the the send/return fuel lines accidentally mixed up. Could that have possibly flooded it? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Classic mistake. Should have read up on what those things do and how they work before removing. Check that you haven't switched the coolant temperature sensor with the thermotime switch. Even better, measure resistance at the ECU connector to be sure the ECU is getting what it needs. Do some Googling on vacuum advance and ported vacuum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcbusa1300 Posted November 23, 2013 Author Share Posted November 23, 2013 Alright. I mean I know what they are and how they work, but I thought it was common to simply delete them with no consequence. So should they have not been deleted? Because the MSA header I just put on doesn't even have an EGR port. I just read the symptoms of a bad coolant temp sensor and that fits my symptoms perfectly, but it was never unplugged or tampered with during this process. I just don't see what could cause this. It ran perfectly before I took the manifolds off to change the manifold gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluDestiny Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 Egr can be deleted and it relatively harmless. Evap canister, not so much. Pictures will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 "Alright. I mean I know what they are and how they work, but I thought it was common to simply delete them with no consequence." That is a clear statement of oxymoronic proportions. Completely contradictory, all within itself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcbusa1300 Posted November 23, 2013 Author Share Posted November 23, 2013 Let me rephrase then. I know what their purposes are, but thought it was harmless to "PROPERLY" delete them. How is that contradicting? For bluedestiny, who actually had something productive to add, the car is stuck a state away at a friends house. I'm headed back over there today, Ill try to get some pics up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 (edited) You did not "PROPERLY" delete those parts. You need to go back and absorb the information about what those things do and how they work, and how the EFI and ignition systems work in general, so that you can figure out how to properly remove them. There's no easy way out from your situation. EGR is in the Emissions chapter, ignition is in Engine Electrical, and EFI is in Engine Fuel. You have some things hooked up incorrectly for sure, and probably some broken electrical circuits. Get out out of the "simple solution" mind-set and in to the "this will take some work" mind-set. Accept the fact that you screwed up and move on. People have been doing what you did since emission control systems were introduced. Edited November 23, 2013 by NewZed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcbusa1300 Posted November 23, 2013 Author Share Posted November 23, 2013 Yes I screwed up. I figured that out when I started the car. I'm not trying to justify what I did. I know i didn't delete them properly. That's why I'm on here trying to find out the correct way. I thought someone could tell me what I did wrong since "people have been doing what i did since emissions were introduced." I'm in a bit of a quick fix mode because this is my daily and it's stuck at a friends house a state away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewZed Posted November 23, 2013 Share Posted November 23, 2013 The quickest way to check the coolant temp sensor is with a meter at the ECU connector. Does your friend have one and know how to use it? Three phillips head screws and you're in. Nobody can tell you over the web if the ECU is getting the right information. Have you opened up the 1980 Fuel Injection Guide yet, or the Factory Service Manual? They're on the internet and free. It looks like the only work you've done is to tear things apart and guess wrong in putting them back together, with no reading at all. Read up and catch up and some of your questions will be answered. There's not much anyone out here can do for you if you don't even know the basics. http://www.nicoclub.com/FSM/ Use the 1980 EFI guide it covers 1978 too - http://www.xenons130.com/reference.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 (edited) The statement that they can be removed without consequence... Think Nissan mighta done that? If you understand what they do, removing them and avoiding issues from that removal and taking proper steps to prevent consequences should be obvious. There's two examples of oxymoronic, contradictory style statements. Just to clarify it. Putting everything back the way it was is the obvious solution, as then you can diagnose the separation of the problems you are having, with what you did. Wanna make a bet you put it all back together and find out it still runs that way, and that it was pure coincidence the symptoms appeared after you were banging around in the engine bay? That puts us back to basic diagnostics and the FSM....which is applicable to an unmodified system, but not necessarily to one where someone without a clue started rerouting and capping vacuum lines ( and doesn't list all those that were capped, moved, or eliminated!) Vague,incomplete posts get vague, frustrating answers. Don't blame that on the people trying to assist you out of the mess you yourself made! Edited November 24, 2013 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 (edited) EXAMPLES: 1) The vacuum line that went from the distributor to the canister, I rerouted to the manifold. ***which end went where? 2) I capped off the line from the throttle body when deleting the EGR. Is that correct? ***line from T/B to....where? 3) I think I have the TPS set properly but if not could that cause it to run that rich and foul plugs? ***That's not required for any "elimination work" you did....why was this done? 4) Also, it sat without the manifolds on for two weeks, maybe some moisture got in there. And also some pb blaster got in there from trying to removed some broken exhaust studs. ***why were the manifolds off? What else did you do? If indeed you "read".... Ripping things off a poorly running engine to begin with is a recipe for bad results. 5) I don't think this would effect it, but I tried to start it with the the send/return fuel lines accidentally mixed up. Could that have possibly flooded it? ***putting 60+ psi on the backside of the FPR? Anything is possible. Basic diagnostics... Get out the book and start checking pressures! ***What about the canister? There's more than one line going to it? You may or may not have done anything to them...you don't clearly say. ***What about the EGR? There is more than a vacuum line going to it. You may or may not have done anything to them...you don't clearly say. ***What about the related switches for the EGR...You mention nothing about them. You may or may not have done anything to them...you don't clearly say. ***What about the manifold? You swap to. Non-EGR. Is THAT why the manifold was off? You may or may not have done this...you don't clearly say. ***What was the running state of the vehicle before you started? Was it even running? Was this intended to "fix" something? You may or may not have had this intent...you don't clearly say. If you didn't think to include these in the diagnostic, or consider their impact when doing your "re-engineering" of the system, any one of them could affect the outcome. That you left them out shows a superficiality in assessment of importance, the root of the issue we have in this case. Edited November 24, 2013 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcbusa1300 Posted December 7, 2013 Author Share Posted December 7, 2013 I'm not blaming y'all for anything. Y'all were in fact very helpful. Thanks. I had the manifolds off changing the manifold gasket. I know its unnecessary to disassemble all that just to change a gasket, but I did it later. When removing the exhaust manifold, it pretty much crumbled. So I had to order a header and exhaust from MSA. So while waiting I decided to strip down the intake manifold, hot tank it, and paint it due to the amount of carbon that was caked in it. Well when going back together I realized the header I ordered didn't have an EGR port, so I didn't have a choice but to delete it. I found a lot of posts saying "yeah it can be safely deleted", but none saying how. So referring to pics of deleted EGR, it looked pretty straight forward. Long story short... I cleaned the filthy plugs, put em back in, and took it down the road. It ran awful for about 2 miles then straightened out. It's ran great since. I'm guessing it was just flooded. My apologies on the late update, been busy with school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Mine didn't have an EGR port on it, either. I welded a 1/2 Half Coupling to the header and connected the EGR and didn't miss a beat. You always have a choice, you convince yourself of what they are. Good to hear (as someone surmised) it didn't have anything to do with your banging about the engine bay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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