Sway bars: what is everyone running?

[DavyZ]

Having sold my 260Z, I am in the situation where I'll need to pick up some sway bars if the 240Z I purchase doesn't have god aftermarket ones already.

 

1) Is there a big difference IYO between the different bars that are out there? Is bigger really better?

 

2) Are metal bushings a definite no no for the street?

 

3) Do you have a favorite brand and why? What did they cost you?

 

4) Is there a "best deal" you can think of that makes $$$ sense?

 

5) What is the "perfect" size bar for a V8 powered street Z?

 

6) JTR says the car will do better accelerating out of turns w/o a rear bar--what about chassis flex over time?? Does it matter?

 

Thanks guys. Information is good only if it's for poeple to see! I appreciate the opinions and info.

 

Have a great Memorial Day Weekend!

 

David

[Guest zfan]

David, Do not know whats best. My 1971 240Z came with after market set up. Ive got front and rear sways, Bilstein's 1" in rear, 7/8's up front with urathane bushings all around. With my coil overs it is very stiff and handles well even though its a scarab type design. If the JTR set up is that much better in the handling department then holy cow man!!! Mike

[Mikelly]

Suspension techniques sells a 1 1/8th bar that (I think ) I used on the front of mine and it came with mounting blocks and the endlink kit. I had the stock 280 rear on the back of my 260Z, but won't be able to run it with my new subframe design. Not sure if I'll need one, but I'd like to have one in the rear... We'll see.

 

You want atleast a 1 inch bar up front though, that much is for sure... Chris Cloude went for a ride in my car without coil overs, just regular MSA springs and Koni oil filled shocks and he was floored at how neutral the car handled when in a sweeper type corner or nailing it from a stand still. Of course, I'd also recommend 2x3 inch boxed frame connectors to ANY package you go with, and just have them done early in the project.

 

Mike

[pparaska]

I'm going to counter something Mike said based on an experience I had in a JTR'd 240Z. The car had (get this) cut down 240Z springs (lowered an inch or so), KYB's, and only a front stock 280Z bar (7/8ths?). Not totally germane to the discussion is that the car had the JTR recommended front control arm inner pivot relocation. It also had a 350 with AL heads, WP, intake, and a T5. All stock steel body parts.

 

Nothing fancy here, huh? Well I was really surprised that it was pretty flat around the exit ramps, etc. at speed. The car had some big tires on it and was by no means a 1.0g ride, but was respectable. If I had to guess, it was pulling high .8gs, maybe very low .9s.

 

(Mike, this was Glen McCoy's old 240Z that he sold a few months before you met him.)

 

Glen had a rear bar on the car previously and was telling me how much he liked the car at that point without the rear bar (not sure how thick it was).

 

Anyway, just a data point, and an subjective one at that.

 

I wonder how much the lowering of the CG and the raising of the roll center (from the raising of the CA inner pivots) had to do with the flat handling of that car. It did lean, but not by much!

 

The really nice thing was that this car drove and road very nicely. Not harsh in any way. And I felt it handled darned nicely as well. I've been through the stiff strut/shock/swaybar thing, and it can be like on rails, but very rough.

 

Anyway, I have a 7/8ths front bar (with urethane bar and link bushings) and presently no rear bar. I'm going to start with that. I also have a 1-1/8" front bar if I feel the need to go stiffer (although that's a huge jump in stiffness). If I do a rear bar, I'm going to have to be careful, as the Suspension Techniques one hits the CV shafts, I've been told. Sounds like time to do a junkyard dance and find one out of another car, a la blueovalz .

[Owen]

I have the Jim Cook Racing set which was a couple hundred cheaper than the Suspension Techniques set. The front is 1" and the rear 7/8" I think.

Can't say anything about handling since the car isn't running but it does interfere with the 280ZX calipers on the rear (car is '73 240Z). Might be a problem with the new differential too...

 

Owen

[DavyZ]

Thanks guys for the information!

 

Mike Kelly: I was hoping to avoid the inevitable of putting in the connectors, but I'll probably meet this issue head on anyway since my S&W 8 point roll cage I have will be installed anyway. There is some good info on Pete's site for that.

 

I'm impressed that Chris' impression of the ride was what it was with that big front bar--I guess spings & shocks play a major role too.

 

Pete: I'll probably go with the same sway bar size initially as you and Zfan Mike have, unless the car already comes with a larger bar. This will be cheaper to begin with

 

I may spend the extra money for the Eibach springs since they are progressive and I'm looking for a reasonable ride w/o excessive harshness. I had a 510 with a very stiff suspension--not for me. If I owned that car now, I'd have to make frequent potty stops due to the jiggling of my kidneys and resonance in my bladder from the ride!

 

Thanks Mike K., Mike Zfan, Pete, and Owen for the great info!

 

David

[blueovalz]

I used the 1.125" bar on my '75 280. It worked very well with the .875" rear bar (perfect balance). On my ex-race car turned street queen, I am using a 1.062" front and a .938" rear, but thats like comparing apples to oranges. Being the 240 is lighter than the 280 I would say a 1" bar on front is all that is needed. I have heard that the 280 unibody is a slightly thicker gauge metal than the earlier 240 unibody was (have no proof of this, only heard it in a conversation about impact requirements with the larger bumpers needing a hefter unibody to assist bumper support in impacts). With that said, my 1.125" bar (I feel strongly) caused the cracking, and the spreading of the crack of both the box frame rails directly over the bar mounts. Not only this, but the bar is very hard to mount because of it's large diameter (had to use socket head cap screws because the bolt heads touched the bracket and I couldn't use a socket on them). I would definitly stay away from metal bushings. They will be a unique experience, but that will fade quickly and before too long you will want the urethane back. Good luck on your choice.

 

Terry

[Guest Anonymous]

I'll let you know when I get mine mounted I got the MSA ones, 1" front, 7/8" back. They may well be right, but perhaps someone can explain why. JTR claims the V8 Z will lift the inner tire on a corner if you use a sway bar. Why? My own understanding is the outside wheel would be leaned into which would put torsion on the bar which would load the inner wheel at least in the way I envision it in my mind. Any thoughts on why they may have said that? (Personally I think the V8Z will spin the inner anyway just due to torque). I understand it may not be the hot setup for straight drag racing, but for twisties, any opinions?

 

Thanks,

 

Lone

[Mikelly]

Another thing to also consider is this: Everyone has their own interpritation and driving style. Some guys like steering with a little trailing brake, some don't. Some guys go to an autocross and whip out fast times bein oh so smooth while others are just out there ripping up the course and still turn fast times... It all depends on what your "Feel" is and what you like to "Feel" when driving. Great thing about it is that with suspension you can change sway bars and spring rates and adjust all the ussual settings to get your feel.

 

Pete, Chris used Glenn's car ( I think that was the one Chris drove??) as a direct comparison to mine... Night and day were his words. Mine also had a cage and those huge sub-frames, which also help with any car, so again, it is all subjective.

 

Mike

[pparaska]

Mike, it really is subjective, and that was the car I was referring to. Of course, I've never driven yours! I guess it really depends on what you want too. I know that too much anti-sway bar can be no fun on a curve with rough pavement, etc. So I decided to start out conservative and go from there.

 

Something tells me I'll get used to it, think it rolls too much and upgrade .

[DavyZ]

Lone, I understand JTR in saying the inside rear tire will get light when a rear bar is used--the outside tire is pressed up into the wheelwell around a tight turn, and therefore the bar lifts the inside tire up as well. It's almost like they are connected. Think of what would happen if you had a 2.5" rear bar--the handling around a corner would be stupid and you'd be spinning the inside tire as it would be coming off the ground completely. I think I'll still use a rear bar, but maybe just a stock one. The front, perhaps a 1" after hearing these guys talk. Eh, heck, I'll just get the same as you have and be happy with it!

 

David

[Guest Anonymous]

Doh... Yeah I can see it now... It would lift the wheel, not plant it....dopus... For some reason I was thinking it was going to plant the tire, but unless it was linked opposite it wouldn't do that. Now I understand why they said that.. Can't see the forrest through the tree's I guess... (we need a icon for being dumb...)

 

Lone

[DavyZ]

That's just "delayed intelligence" nothing more! I'm guilty of that a lot of the time!

 

David

[Guest MM_280Z]

Argh, this thread has confused me more than it's helped. I hear some people saying thicker rear than front is better, and others that thicker front is better.

 

I asked a similar question before regarding my understeer problem. The conventional wisdom is that a thicker rear sway will promote oversteer (likewise for thinner front). Yet now I hear about more effective power application with a thinner rear bar. But, what is power used for in a turn if not to promote oversteer! Ergh

 

My (stock save for Tokico springs/struts) 75 280 understeers more than I'd like. What should I do...

1. Larger rear only (stock front)

2. Both larger/ front bigger than rear (MSA)

3. Both larger/ rear bigger than front

 

I suspect MSA sells in pairs only since the larger front arrangement is "safer." But I don't care about that, I want the best handling! My goal is dead neutral with light throttle (just enough to maintain speed) and oversteer easily coming with more throttle. Right now I have to trail brake like crazy to get the thing to turn. I'd rather be in the situation of minimal steering input and turning with throttle. Supposedly this is the fastest way around a corner ("inertial drift").

[blueovalz]

IMO, since it doesn't matter that the bars are sold as pairs, go with a matched set. The manufactures get the balance fairly close. With a very few rare exceptions, the front will ALWAYS be larger than the rear. The only time I ever had the same size front and back was when I had 2" wider tires in back. Once I went to the same size tire all around, the oversteer was dangerous for street driving (idiots pull out in front of you, you let off the gas in a curve, and WOOO HOOO!!!). I immediately dropped the rear bar by 1/8" inch to get the oversteer in a safe range again. Do the #2 on you list and you will have a good starting point.

[BLKMGK]

A couple of added points... if you go with a big front bar reinforce the mount block points. I've got a BIG bar in the garage that was pulled from a previus car - it had been nicknamed "frameripper" by the previous owner - this was STREET driving too!

 

Presently I have no rear bar but with the L6 I did and this car ran great. I've had to remove the bar to install my rear brace and found out it had been binding the control arms too. Like Pete I'm going to go with no rear bar first, maybe go bigger up front with what's in the garage, then maybe a rear bar. As you've seen - everyone has a different idea!

 

I'd suggest experimenting on your own. Buy a matched set of bars and mixmatch with what you've got. Back to back testing and your driving style would be your best bets IMO - no one shoe fits all.

[randy 77zt]

i had a suspension techniques 1 1/8 front bar but took it off and changed to a 15/16 front bar from a junkyard-car understeered down turn 6 at sears point.rear bar is 7/8 suspension techniques.bar size depends on spring selection .it is better to run stiffer springs and less sway bar up to a certain point.a car that feels like it handles flat on street might not be set up correctly when you start comparing it by running with other cars on a race track-been there .

[Mikelly]

And Randy brings up a good point... You need to differenciate between driving the car competitively and setting it up for the street. What will you be doing with the car? If you plan to be the least bit competitive with the car in an autocross, then I'd call someone like Ground Control and ask them what sizes they recommend based on spring rates, ride height, camber settings, toe, caster, weight of car... you'd be surprised at how any of these, as well as tire presure and tire width and type of tire can all make a difference in a competitive driving situation. You will never, ever push your car as hard on the street as you would on an autocross course or lap day at a road course...

 

Mike

[auxilary]

DavyZ posted basically one of the questions I had, and I guess I got it partially answered, thanks to you guys...

 

I have a '73 240z, it's bone stock right now, save for exhaust and dual webber carbs. I am going to eventually be doing the JTR swap into this, to make it a road race track machine to beat around laguna seca, sears point, and thunderhill, and occasional weekend driver. My next question is... what would be a good suspension set up for the Z? I was perusing the MSA catalog, and they have springs listed, but not the spring rates. What would be a good setup? I'd like to use the tokiko 5 way illuminas, as I've seen (and driven on) them perform quite well on my friend's RX-7 FC, which literally handled like a go-kart.

[randy 77zt]

to auxilary-the msa catalog is where i got urathane bushings but not much else.you cant go wrong with the illumina's-these are a maintanence item on an old car.for best shock price try shox.com.they have sway bars too.if you want try some replacement style lowering springs but most people goto coil overs & camber plates .ground control is your best bet since you live in north ca.the one thing i screwed up on when is doing a lot of work on suspension and trying to run high performance street tires.that doesnt work.i put coil overs and camber plates on when i should have bought track tires and tried to run them with oem type eibach lowering springs.i would have got results sooner .now i run used tires on street and run kumho track tires at track.next big problem will be brakes.