jeromio Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/010821/11/9984.html Probably pie in the sky. Personally, I think it would've been sweeter to make a V12 by siamesing that new I6 of theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 The horsepower looks pretty good, and the size is great, be nice in a Z, but I had to shudder when I read these paragraphs: "GM's Displacement on Demand enables the V12 engine to run seamlessly on six cylinders at times to maximize fuel savings, and is only one of several technological advancements showcased on the Northstar XV12. Some of the high-tech features included in Northstar XV12's capabilities: Displacement on Demand The cylinder shutdown is enabled through valve deactivation, which is performed by a compact switchable tappet. Cylinder de-activation occurs on the right-hand bank only, which allows the engine to run as a perfectly balanced inline 6-cylinder. The system deactivation and reactivation has a quick response time and the oil system and solenoid layout allows valve switching capability at up to 6000 rpm. " Did'nt they get enough with all that trickery with that stupid 4-6-8 engine they built way back when? I'm sure its more refined, but jeez, you don't buy a V12 for economy of a L6 in the first place, I guess its just them trying to get under EPA guidelines or something... who knows... Cheers, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 quote: Originally posted by lonehdrider: ...I had to shudder when I read these paragraphs: "GM's Displacement on Demand... Did'nt they get enough with all that trickery with that stupid 4-6-8 engine they built way back when?... Lone, that's exactly what crossed my mind when I read that--think it'll make a few others shudder besides you and me???? Davy [ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: DavyZ ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted August 23, 2001 Author Share Posted August 23, 2001 They definately need that for EPA and also just to get a green image. Mercedes already has a V12 with a similar system. But, just as with the skipshift T56, I'm certain it's something that could be disabled.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Ditto on the 4-6-8 thing - that was JUNK. What do you guys think about the rear mounted timing chain? That'd make cam changes real fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 If the throttle response from light foot cruising to WOT is instant, I think it will work very well...the economy of a 6 when cruising or sitting in traffic (for us SoCal folks), and tire lighting horsepower when you stand on it....best of both worlds...this coming from a staunch carby guys...no computers for me thanks, not in a car anyway Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 Our SBC/BBC Push Rod's worthyness has been weighed...& found wanting (by GM)...ITS DAYS ARE NUMBERED; as a RPO option at least! Well-well-well-well; GM's been trying to get rid of the Push Rod V8 for years; now, it looks like they may actually be on the right (interesting track) track in that direction anyway. I wonder if this is what the Hot Rodders that spent countless hours tweaking the Flat Heads felt like when they got wind of the OHV engines about to hit the market(?)! I agree about the "Displacement on Demand" thing...I immediately thought of the late 70's/80's 4-6-8 cyl's at certain speeds that GM attempted on the luxury cars...what was that called back then (Variable Timing?). I can only hope that this time w/better electronics that their scheme will work. I also noticed they had the variable intake systems (three different settings) being toyed with. Lets hope GM gets it right this time on their luxury car powertrain...they've got a bad record/reputation w/the past luxury powertrains; such as the venerable all alluminum V8 of the 80's & then the Northstar alluminum engine w/its bewildering inherent problems. All were great disigns/just lacking in the durable dept. Even tho I realize this is the "Death Noll" as far as the Factory RPO for a SBC/BBC on a GM vehicle; that V12 would certainly put GM back at the top in way of High Tech powertrains & bring about an all new decade of performance & hot rodding...looks like the "Writing is on the Wall"! hey what about a GM V12/DOHC NASCAR team or the same engine in SCCA/Grand AM racing? You know GM has to be licking their chops waiting for this powertrain to hit the racing...if it hasnt already under another name. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) [ August 23, 2001: Message edited by: Kevin Shasteen ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 NASCAR? Oh come on - those guys still run carbs for kripes sake! What are the chances of them a) running a bodystyle that looks like anything in the local supermarket lot allowing modern things like fuel injection and c) actually requiring the cars to run somehting based anywhere near a production machine? I'm kind of sick of seeing FWD cars like the Taurus with RWD V8s in them. Why do they even try to make the cars look anything like a production vehicle or bother tagging them with production vehicle names? Just make it a straight race car series with generic blobs running around the track and be done with it. Sorry, NASCAR just bugs me sometimes. Glad to see Chrysler got back in at least. Let's see the new foreign V8s jump in and really turn things upside down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted August 23, 2001 Share Posted August 23, 2001 I'm sure they have some sort of racing in mind for the V12, but probably not nascar. Nascar is pretty stone simple stuff, I doubt they want to deal with 12 cylinders even if they did get more HP and rev's out of it. Remember also that Nascar (like Indy and a few other types of racing) every so many years puts restrictions on to slow down the cars as they keep inching up and getting faster, which inevitably ends up in more wrecks/fatalities. HP even with the V8's they're using now isn't a problem, they have all they need without adding the complexities of a V12. It'll be interesting to see how they deal with the influx of Foreign V8's into Nascar and whether they put restrictions on them to squeeze them out. Depends on if they are more concerned with the racing or it being an 'American' tradition. Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted August 24, 2001 Author Share Posted August 24, 2001 I agree with BLKMGK on the NASCAR thing. It's just not something I understand. They have all these fanatically tight restrictions on, for instance, the outside measurements of the body being exactly the same as the "equivalent production car". Nevermind that none of the "equivalents" are RWD, offer V8s, have carbs - there's not even any such thing as a 2 door Taurus. The technology is locked in the 70s. And I'm sure it takes great skill and endurance and all, but please, 500 miles of Turn left, Turn left, Turn left, turn left.....There was one race - Watkins Glen? Do they still do that one? It was the only roadcourse race in Nascar. That one was pretty cool. For some reason the American public is really into it. I just don't get it. On the other hand, GTP and events such as LeMans: Race a crazy high-tech car for a whole day on a tight twisty course - often in the rain! That's some stuff. And they mix all those different classes of cars together. Very fun to watch - makes me wish I had cable. I had cable as a kid and I used to watch every Rally car race that was televised. Those 8-900hp turbo, AWD Audis and Fords and Porsches flying across some countryside at insane speeds on twisty, narrow DIRT roads with the tail swishing all over the place. That's exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 A letter to AW a few weeks ago said: Nascar is to auto racing as the WWF is to wrestling. Anyway, several years ago Roush Racing put two Ford V6s together for a V12 (just for grins as Ford never used it for anything but research). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeromio Posted August 24, 2001 Author Share Posted August 24, 2001 Actually, the Aston Martin V12 is 2 "Duratec" (lame name) V6s plornked together. That's the same engine as the Probe/Contour. Obviously the castings of block/heads are different, but the CAD of the actual castings is basicaly just that. Apparently they saved beaucoup dollars (pounds?) doing it that way and all the car magazines rave about the smoothness and power of the resulting engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike C Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 There are two road courses in NASCAR, Watkins Glen and Sears Point. I watch two NASCAR Races every year. Watkins Glen and Sears Point. Admittedly old tech in some ways, the mechanicals of the cars and their abilitly to extract 650+ hp from a production based 358 cu in motor that is nearly 50 years old and that can turn 8000 rpm for hours at a time is most impressive. I am not a NASCAR fan, but the cars are Kick butt even if they are "old tech" One of the car magazines tested one and it ran like 11 teen quarter miles at over 130 mph with 2.73 gears, top speed of over 200 mph and pulled nearly 1.3 g on the skid pad. Not pad for an antique... And the trucks only run 9.5:1 compression which means pump gas. Would make a heck of a commuter with big block power and a VTEC power band! This could actually be justification for a 6 speed behind 600 lb ft of torque. GM will have the pushrod motors around at leas for a little while. They don't tool up for trucks and then stop 2 years after production. Figure at least a 10 year run on the Vorterc 4.6/5.4/6.0 even if the Camaro and 'vette wind up with something different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Adkins Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 I'm just curious, how do the lap times and speeds on the road courses of the NASCAR cars compare to other types of race cars on the same courses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted August 24, 2001 Share Posted August 24, 2001 Cadilacs idea of dropping injection on every other cylinder was dumb. This time however they were smart enough to open the valves so it doesn't become on big air compressor. It looks slick, hats off to GM in theory it should work great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted August 25, 2001 Share Posted August 25, 2001 John yuo can't really compare lap times between the series. Nascar has a weight requirement of something like 3400lbs min. (I think) F1/CART are both a LOT less. (like half that) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fl327 Posted August 25, 2001 Share Posted August 25, 2001 whoa, that thing looks hardcore, all im saying is that they better make a carbed version for me, i think im about two or three years away from messing with any fi, how about six holley 2bbls on top of that please......!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 quote: Originally posted by clint78z: Cadilacs idea of dropping injection on every other cylinder was dumb. This time however they were smart enough to open the valves so it doesn't become on big air compressor. It looks slick, hats off to GM in theory it should work great. Clint, GM didn't just stop the injectors from firing. The next time you're in a junkyard, take a peek under the hood of one of those 8-6-4 machines. Notice the BIG valve covers that hide the machinery necessary to lock some of the valves in place. Also keep in mind that if none of the valves open, the engine isn't labored because the air trapped in the cylinders acts as an air spring. Nearly all of the energy required to compress the air in the cylinder on the upward stroke is returned on the downward stroke. GM has the habit of taking a very good idea and turning it to rubbish as soon as it hits the production line. That's what happens when engineers run the design labs and bean counters run the production lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 quote: Originally posted by jeromio: I agree with BLKMGK on the NASCAR thing. It's just not something I understand. What's to understand? Do you understand Big Macs? Take a product that is marginally acceptable, make it accessible to the masses, market the ever lovin' hell out of it, and you'll have a winner every time. Cynical? Who, Me? I agree with you wholeheartedly about rally races. They were an absolute GAS. It's too bad so many folks got killed racing, though. Heck, it's too bad so many folks got killed WATCHING them! I like the British version of stock car racing. Use a stock body and mostly stock interior, throw in a cage and an outrageous motor, and run it around twisty tracks at obscene rates of speed. TOO COOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPMS Posted August 29, 2001 Share Posted August 29, 2001 quote: Originally posted by jeromio: Actually, the Aston Martin V12 is 2 "Duratec" (lame name) V6s plornked together. Plornked? PLORNKED? That's a wonderful word! Thank you for expanding my vocabulary today, Jeromio! Gee, and I thought I never learned anything useful from the high-tech board... Plornking happily away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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