Coilover Leveling Issues

[~KnuckleDuster~]

So when I first bought my 240z it had cut springs on it and they were all different lengths. I didn't think anything of it at the time because I planned on going with adjustable coilovers which now I have the ground control sleeves & springs. To get the car to sit normal looking the adjustments on the coilovers are extreme on the passenger side of the car. The right rear has to be set almost to the top of the collar and the front passenger has to be set as low as it can go without causing the spring to flop around loosely. I don't think my frame is tweaked that bad I can't see any signs of accidents. I'm no suspension expert on these cars so I'm thinking something may be binding? Control arm? I don't know, any input or suggestions will help. This is the only related thread I found when searching: http://www.classiczcars.com/forums/topic/52895-problems-leveling-my-240z/

 

 

[luseboy]

Have you gotten the suspension to settle yet?  I know some people have had this issue and it was partly a suspension settling issue, sometimes it can be that easy.  Control arm binding is another possibility.  Apparently they can bind, and there is a procedure to torque them while they are weighted, i.e. with the car on the ground.  If there isn't enough room under the car to do this you might try putting some blocks or ramps under the wheels.  The FSM outlines that for the rear control arms, the bolts that "clamp" the bushings in place should be installed somewhat loose, then the car should be lowered to the ground before torquing the bolts down to spec, all in an effort to reduce binding.  Though it does sound like your problems would be more front control arm based.  I don't see any procedure like this in the FSM for the front control arms, but perhaps there is one.  Another possibility is that you could have a bent control arm, they aren't the most stout.  Have you replaced any of the bushings or removed the control arms or anything?  I would take a close look at everything and see if anything looks odd.  Even without accidents, rust can creep in and cause all sorts of problems.  For your sake, I hope your problems are not rust related as that is a real pain to deal with.  

[~KnuckleDuster~]

Have you gotten the suspension to settle yet?  I know some people have had this issue and it was partly a suspension settling issue, sometimes it can be that easy.  Control arm binding is another possibility.  Apparently they can bind, and there is a procedure to torque them while they are weighted, i.e. with the car on the ground.  If there isn't enough room under the car to do this you might try putting some blocks or ramps under the wheels.  The FSM outlines that for the rear control arms, the bolts that "clamp" the bushings in place should be installed somewhat loose, then the car should be lowered to the ground before torquing the bolts down to spec, all in an effort to reduce binding.  Though it does sound like your problems would be more front control arm based.  I don't see any procedure like this in the FSM for the front control arms, but perhaps there is one.  Another possibility is that you could have a bent control arm, they aren't the most stout.  Have you replaced any of the bushings or removed the control arms or anything?  I would take a close look at everything and see if anything looks odd.  Even without accidents, rust can creep in and cause all sorts of problems.  For your sake, I hope your problems are not rust related as that is a real pain to deal with.  

Yeah it's settled by now, I've been dealing with this issue for a while but just now getting around to posting about it. The rear control arms have these rear camber adjustable bushings installed but the problem existed prior to this. http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/23-4171

 

The front control arms I have never touched. I do have a different set of front control arms with poly bushings I haven't installed yet...maybe now is the time. Rust shouldn't be an issue.

Edited July 1, 2016 by ~KnuckleDuster~

[luseboy]

Yeah it's settled by now, I've been dealing with this issue for a while but just now getting around to posting about it. The rear control arms have these rear camber adjustable bushings installed but the problem existed prior to this. http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/23-4171

 

The front control arms I have never touched. I do have a different set of front control arms with poly bushings I haven't installed yet...maybe now is the time. Rust shouldn't be an issue.

Ah ok makes sense.  I'm a little skeptical about those bushings myself, I got a set and installed them and ultimately removed them and the stock control arms and went with techno toy tuning control arms.  I doubt they would cause this issue though. 

 

Perhaps installing new control arms wouldn't be a bad idea, if you have them already.  Though I generally don't agree with the "shotgun" approach to fixing things, if you already have them it's not a bad idea.  However, I don't know if this would possibly mess up your alignment but I'm sure it'd be close enough.  If nothing else it would at least cross something off the list.  It would also give you a good opportunity to really look under your car and try and identify what's going on.  I'd take a good look at your strut tower tops as well, it's possible that a really good pothole mushroomed one of them.  I used to have a mini cooper and even at 5 years old people were having all sorts of strut tower mushrooming problems.  I don't think I've heard much about this on s30's but it's possible.  

 

It's funny, I just started reading your build thread.  Looks like an extremely clean chassis, I'm pretty jealous of your lack of rust.

[~KnuckleDuster~]

Yeah those bushings were free to me, I just put them in because my old ones were rotting away. I've been eyeing those ttt control arms...I see them in my future. I just wanted to figure out the root of the problem before throwing even more money at it and just having the same issue.

[luseboy]

Yeah those bushings were free to me, I just put them in because my old ones were rotting away. I've been eyeing those ttt control arms...I see them in my future. I just wanted to figure out the root of the problem before throwing even more money at it and just having the same issue.

 

Totally makes sense, I'm sure they work just fine I just didn't want to deal with explaining them to an alignment shop and the potential for them to spin at will.  That being said they'll likely end up on a friend's s30 at some point.  They are very very nice, I'm really happy I went with their parts.  I'm thinking if you spend some time under the car and inspect a little you'll probably be able to figure it out. I'm sure someone with more experience will chime in with some more specific advice ha.  

[~KnuckleDuster~]

Cool I appreciate the input. Getting anyone to respond around here is an achievement all its own.

[Michael]

... Getting anyone to respond around here is an achievement all its own.

It is indeed.  This site has become an austere and staid repository, rather than a discussion-group.  But that's an issue beyond the scope of the present thread.

 

Resuming the topic, perhaps it might be worthwhile to remove the McPherson struts from all four corners, stack them up alongside each other, and compare.  There may be some obscure anomaly that mere under-car inspection can't detect.  It may for example be possible that the rubber isolators atop of each strut-housing are broken, or mismatched, or that something else is mockingly dangling. There might have been mixing between 240Z and 280Z components.

[Leon]

Did you double-check that you have the springs in the correct locations? A left-right spring rate mismatch will cause weird side-effects. Who built the coilovers? Are the collars located identically left-right?

[luseboy]

Another thing I just thought of: have you confirmed that all the shocks move freely and don't bind?  Maybe the wrong gland nut was used and causes binding.  Not super likely and would probably be pretty obvious when shock shaft coating was peeling off but still possible.  Also have you gotten an alignment done?  I'm curious if there's any alignment issues that could point to any damage to a particular corner of the car or other issues.  

[RebekahsZ]

Get to know folks who have been here for a while and have successfully done what you are trying to do. Then PM the people you want advice from. I've kinda quit answering questions cast into cyberspace, but I still respond to people. Be prepared to send a lot of pictures and to take some measurements. If you want you can call me at 256-366-4685. I'm going to the movies tonight but have no major plans for the holiday. I only know about home built coilovers with sectioned strut tubes. I know nothing of these systems where you chop off the Z strut tube and weld on an entire aftermarket tube.

[~KnuckleDuster~]

Resuming the topic, perhaps it might be worthwhile to remove the McPherson struts from all four corners, stack them up alongside each other, and compare.  There may be some obscure anomaly that mere under-car inspection can't detect.  It may for example be possible that the rubber isolators atop of each strut-housing are broken, or mismatched, or that something else is mockingly dangling. There might have been mixing between 240Z and 280Z components.

I think you may be confusing my set-up with the related link I posted. I have Tokico Illumina's and springs are Ground Control 175/200. They were made by cockerstar here on the forum. The rear isolators were changed out for taller ones from a 280z, they were in good shape and the problem existed prior to swaping them. The fronts I'm not to sure but pretty sure they're fine.

 

 

Did you double-check that you have the springs in the correct locations? A left-right spring rate mismatch will cause weird side-effects. Who built the coilovers? Are the collars located identically left-right?

I'm pretty sure I've done this but I will check again. Made by cockerstar. Haven't seen him around lately so doubt he will chime in worst cast I could PM him..

 

Another thing I just thought of: have you confirmed that all the shocks move freely and don't bind?  Maybe the wrong gland nut was used and causes binding.  Not super likely and would probably be pretty obvious when shock shaft coating was peeling off but still possible.  Also have you gotten an alignment done?  I'm curious if there's any alignment issues that could point to any damage to a particular corner of the car or other issues.  

I'll look for strange wear. The car handles well and I drive it pretty hard. I've had an alignment before and after I changed the rear control arm bushings (which the alignment guy had no clue how to adjust)

 

 

Here's some other pictures for reference. This passenger right side always sits high and has the collar as low as it can go without loosing tension on the spring.

 

 

 

This is why I think the problem existed before the coilovers even went in. These are both fronts, notice the blue spring has a few less coils. The car sat level when I bought it

 

.

Edited July 2, 2016 by ~KnuckleDuster~

[Leon]

I'd take it to a frame shop.

[winstonusmc]

When you leveled the car, how did you do it? I disconnected the front and rear sway bar and lifted the center of the front and rear and leveled the front and rear independent of each other. Then I set the ride height I wanted after that. My front right is torqued a bit from when the car was damaged from the joy rider. The front right coilover is about 10mm longer than the rest.

[~KnuckleDuster~]

When you leveled the car, how did you do it? I disconnected the front and rear sway bar and lifted the center of the front and rear and leveled the front and rear independent of each other. Then I set the ride height I wanted after that. My front right is torqued a bit from when the car was damaged from the joy rider. The front right coilover is about 10mm longer than the rest.

I never disconnected the sway bar but I jacked up the car from the rear diff and front x member and got caught up going front to back numerous times trying to figure out what was going on.

Edited July 2, 2016 by ~KnuckleDuster~

[~KnuckleDuster~]

I'd take it to a frame shop

Hoping that's not the issue!

[Michael]

I never disconnected the sway bar but I jacked up the car from the rear diff and front x member and got caught up going front to back numerous times trying to figure out what was going on.

 

The car was resting on three points: the bottom of the differential housing, a point on the driver's side of the front cross-member, and a point on the passenger's side of the cross-member... correct?  Was the floor level?  Were the two front jackstands at equal height?  If the answer is "yes" to both, then that's evidence (but not proof) that the unibody is in OK shape.

 

 

.

 

First, I wanted to publicly compliment you on the aesthetic beauty of your suspension components - even if they're not level or not yet fully functional.  Many of us armchair-critics can't sport something so elegant.  Second, it may be the case that the McPherson struts themselves are uneven.  On my car, the front axles (correct term?) were improperly aligned with respect to the strut housings... an OEM defect.  The late John Coffey pointed out that this problem is fairly widespread.  It took several junkyard outings to find a matching pair of front strut assemblies.  Well, this may or may not be a culprit in the car-leveling issue, but it is suggestive that some other source of unevenness could reasonably be traced to the strut assemblies.

[~KnuckleDuster~]

The strut assemblies were changed out with completely different assemblies. Purchased as a complete package. I've got the car looking level but I can feel an unevenness in what seems like the spring rate due to the varying compression. Left turns feel softer due to that front right being loosey goosey.

 

Here's some pictures of what things look like now.

 

Front Right:

 

 

 

 

 

Right Front:

 

 

Right Rear:

 

 

 

Left Rear:

 

 

 

[luseboy]

 

What's up with the gland nut here? It looks like it's barely threaded on, maybe that's an optical illusion though.  Also that does sorta look like shaft wear right under the Eibach logo, but again maybe it's just the picture.  At this point, I think you may want to figure out some way to measure your shock towers and your frame against a reference point (maybe put it up on jack stands, and get it really level with your garage floor and measure the distance between each frame rail and the floor). This would not be an exact measurement by any stretch of the word but could at least give you a feel for what's going on.  Could you snap some pictures of your strut tower tops too? I'm still a little suspect about mushrooming of the strut tower.  

 

Also, unrelated but I keep thinking these pictures are of my car because I also have a green moustache bar lol.  Mine's rattle can green as opposed to powder coated but still. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by luseboy

[~KnuckleDuster~]

I'm starting to think more and more my frame might be tweaked. My frame rails are pretty beat up and there's even a raised hump on the passenger floor board. Could be from horrible jacking or who knows what. I'll get some pictures up tomorrow of the underside.