Mikelly Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 OK Guys... I'm REALLY Drawing close to a purchase of a CPU, software, and wiring harness for my project.. I know people have REALLY almost talked me out of Holley's new System. So what's left??? Accell DFI? MOTEC?? I want data logging, and as much tunability as possible. Here is what I have so far: Port injected single plane intake, 42# injectors, 1000CFM TB, fuel rails, FP Regulator, all sensors except 02 and bung, 166MHZ Laptop. I know I still need a distributor, and I have an MSD 6AL box. Motor is a 383 stroker with roller valve train and aluminum 217cc chamber 2.05/1.6 heads. Other than that, I need the brains behind the operation. I don't want to deal with a crank trigger, and I'm not sure I want to deal with the Electramotive System, as I hear it is a pain to tune, and initial setup isn't pretty. However, I need to narrow it down and I need real user experiences...Ross, My machine had to be rebuilt, so I lost all my links... Any EFI tech pages would be good.. All, please add usefull data to this discussion. Saying a unit sux without real technical data to back it up won't do me any good, so please, lets stick to facts! I GREATLY appreciate all input. My timetable is this: Finish up the prototype control arms, build the initial 6 orders and ship them, and then focus 100% on MY CAR!!! Jim's car at my wedding really did me in! Thanks for your help guys! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 you will be trying to efi a v8 i guess.my suggestion would be to talk to users of different systems and get their likes & dislikes.i downloaded the dtafast sample program & liked playing with it.i got the old haltech dos program and disliked it.will you be welding injector bungs into a victor jr or performer rpm manifold?get a kinsler efi supply catalog.from my point of view i would probably piece a system together.if you have a monster engine you want to be able to feed it with no more then possably an injector change.ay this time i am trying to create a system to run that will make my car paas smog on dyno test with out high nox emmissions.will need to adjust timing and add egr at specific rpm points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 18, 2001 Author Share Posted September 18, 2001 Randy, I have all the pieces. My intake is like a Victor Jr. but is made by Cutler. It already has the Bungs in it and I have 42# injectors that have been flowed and matched. It is for a 383 stroker small block Chevy. I have the Regulator, but still need to decide if the Bosch fuel Pump I currently have will be enough to feed my motor. I took a look at the old HALTEC Dos program and is wasn't very friendly to use.... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators SuperDan Posted September 18, 2001 Administrators Share Posted September 18, 2001 Well, It just so happens that I purchased last week the Holley Commander 950 to replace the stock ECM for my TPI. So far I very impressed, easy to tune and alot of options including data logging. The base map that came with the ECM was real close to what I needed and after about 2 hrs of tunning iv'e got my car running great (still need to work on WOT a little) and im very happy with it. And the price was real nice too I also made a nice background image for my portable, red with white letters that says 'Danger to manifold" Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 Dan, isn't there two Holley systems? One an older one that was keypad only and now a newer one? Mike, I think it's the older one that's supposed to have had problems not the newer one. I've not hard much at all about the newer one. Dan tell us as much as you can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 I don't understand why you guys are berating the Haltech program. I found it to be the easiest of all to program. Yes you must read the instructions and learn the short cuts, to make quicker changes possible. I mounted my laptop on a stand (like the cops have) and drove to and from work (a 45 minute trip each way)and kept my finger on the home button to read the range under all load situations. I also mounted a Cyberdyne rich-lean gauge tied to a Bosch heated O2 sensor mounted in the collector so I could read how rich or lean it was running with a load and without a load. I used the data-log to set the race program at the drag strip The results 16 MPG with a BB in a 3800lb car that turns 12.41 @ 111 MPH with a/c. I have a daily drive program,an emissions test program, and a drag race program. I love my Haltech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators SuperDan Posted September 18, 2001 Administrators Share Posted September 18, 2001 Ok, here is how I came to the conclusion that the Holley system was what I wanted. I got in touch with a tech guy for Holley that hangs out in a different forum and had a little chat with him. Yes, there are 2 systems. Pro-Jection system is the old one and he admitted that it is a piece of junk, slow cpu limited tuning options etc. Commander 950 is the new one and I light years ahead of the Pro-Jection. I was running the stock GM ECU and was running into problems with idle (stalling) and WOT. Come to find out that I needed to add VSS input to the CPU otherwise it was always going to run like crap at speed. Also my stock ECU was setup for a Auto trans and was not the best way to go if you have a stick. Option 1: Get a new ROM burned, hope it works the first time(not likely) and pay about $200 to $400 to have it done. Option 2: Get a EPROM burner and learn to do it myself, assembly language…. YUK! And lots of trial and error… no way. Option 3: Accell DFI, plug in replacement for the stock tpi including wiring harness. You guys seen the price of Ver 7 ECU and software… like $1300… ummm ok, ill have to think about it. Option 4: Holley Commander 950, They have retro fit kit like the Accell setup for my TPI, cost $750 with wiring harness etc…. hmmmm….. sounding good. One option that some of the other ECUs have that I would like was the wide-band O2 sensor so I e-mailed Holley and asked if this was a option or would it be in the future, they said “… it is not a option at this time.” Hmmm… what does that mean? Considering what it costs to add that to other systems it was not a big factor in deciding what to go with. Next I went to Holley’s site and downloaded the Commander 950 Tuning Manual. It pretty much told me everything I needed to know and I would suggest anyone who is considering it to do the same. Not comparing it to any other system, I liked what I saw and it seemed that there were lot’s of tune ability with this system. The manual has a very methodical step-by-step tuning section that pretty much convinced me that the Commander was the way to go for me. It took me a day to remove my old ECU/harness and install the new one, the next day I went thru the tuning manual step-by-step and was very, very pleased with the results. I can go out to the garage right now after the car has been sitting all night, reach in and hit the starter and it will fire right up and go to a smooth, stable idle all the way thru warm up. The car pulls real strong now and the power is so much smoother and more responsive. The software is stupid easy to use. What else can I say, im very happy and glad I went with it. Feel free to ask any questions you have guys, im all ears. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 ROFL SuperDan! "I also made a nice background image for my portable, red with white letters that says 'Danger to manifold'" Getting inspired by F&F?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 Your advice to get and read the tuning manuals for ECUs being considered is a good one. The Electromotive one was supposed to be really good I'd heard but I've not yet seen it. There's no electronic version available that I'm aware of and they used to charge a pretty penny for it if memory serves. I'll see if I can hunt up the Holly one as I too am in the market and that price isn't too bad. i'm tempted to go with "simple" over complicated and expensive this time around... Haltech, not sure I'd bash them really but they've alwasy seemed to lag behind some of the other companies so far as features go. For the longest time they didn't have spark control. Their software, way back when, was supposed ot be pretty simple as far as ECUs went though. There obviously comes a time when you've got an ECU that's "good enough" and trying to add more features adds more cost than it does real tuning options. SDS is apparently a good example of this. Is anyone using a SpeedPro, DFI 7, or TECII on a V8? Would love to hear experiences from folks using them like we have from Dan! Hey Randy, tell us about your Haltech experiences please. Trying to keep an open mind on this. Also, friend got his dyno running last night and I was there for the first pulls. LOT'S to learn about how to run the thing and the WINPEP software could be a little easier but we'll get it. I hope to get a quick pull on my motor to see how it's running. Perhaps tonight if I'm lucky - I'd love to know how the A/F is looking. Need to figure out which O2 to buy before I can hookup my gauge but the dyno has A/F ability. Not quite ready for customer cars yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators SuperDan Posted September 18, 2001 Administrators Share Posted September 18, 2001 quote You're Killing me. OK, I'll bite... Send me your honest and true assesment about it, Hmmm... I thought I did Let me clairify one thing, when I said that the software was "stupid easy" I was not saying that it was not powerfull. There are a lot of features... alot of them, it's just there software is very straight forword and allmost seamless. Example, timeing control, very percise I mean, do you really need to control timing to 1/10th of a deg? Well you can if you want to. Example, I set mine up to run closed loop at idle, with IAC control and idle spark control...smooth as kitten man, it's great. Below is some of the options you can configure, I just cut and pasted them so people can compare. Acceleration Enrichment Pulse Width—Rate of Change of TPS AE Correction vs. Coolant Temperature AE Correction vs. TPS (%) Rate of Change of MAP Sensor Enrichment Decay Rate (Crank Triggers) AE of Map vs. Coolant Temperature (%) IAC Parked position Minimum IAC Position Max. TPS for Closed Loop Operation Minimum engine temp for Closed Loop Operation O2 Compensation Step Size Seconds between O2 Compensation Step changes Cold Start Delay to Enter Closed Loop Hot Start Delay to Enter Closed Loop RPM to Enter Closed Loop RPM to Return to Open Loop Afterstart Enrichment Afterstart Holdoff Afterstart Decay Rate Ok, ok thats enough pasting, there is still much more but I think you get the idea. quote and Can you get me the same price??? (Best I could do was $850 for ECU And harness). I got mine from Summit Racing, the part number I needed was 950-101 for TPI. They do not list it on there webb site or catalog yet but do have them in stock. Mike, call me later if you want to talk about it. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 18, 2001 Share Posted September 18, 2001 Clint, the TECII WINTEC is now free. However we've heard here previously that the WINTEC isn't as good - at least it's not a $K anymore Folks - post links if you've got them.. Holley Commander PDF manual -> http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechServ/TechInfo/R10149-5.pdf Additional info -> http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLine/Products/C950/C950.html DFI Gen 7 info -> http://www.mrgasket.com/dfinew.htm#DFI but no manual that I can find or decent screen shots Edelbrock -> http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mpfi_systems.html HalTech -> http://www.haltech.com.au/ SDS -> http://www.sdsefi.com/tech.html FelProSpeedPro (same? Not sure htis is th ecorporat page) -> http://www.fuelairspark.com/ Misc parts etc. -> http://members.aol.com/bigturbo1/index.html http://force-efi.com/ Hope that helps! I'm looking too... [ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clint78z Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 Found another decent comparo here http://hondata.com/ecucomparison.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 Interesting information. Check out the data logging rate for the DFI and Speed Pro systems - also note the number of channels! DFI is still down so far as number of channels but their data rate is 100hz IF this is right. I question some of this info though. They list the GEN7 DFI as NOT having knock sensor input and NOT having voltage compensation. I know for a fact that the older system had it and would be surprised if DFI dropped either of those features - especially the voltage compensation. Anyone find DFI 7 stuff elsewhere to compare? Haltech came out looking decent here too IMO. [ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: BLKMGK ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators SuperDan Posted September 19, 2001 Administrators Share Posted September 19, 2001 Holly has knock sensor input and voltage compensation... Ok ill shut up now Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 I'm keeping my mouth shut Ps I drove my dyno only tuned car back too the tuner and shaved 40 mins off drive time . Had her up too 125 she wanted more but enough for now.pullin like a SOB .Grabed a tool had a drink and drove it home . F-ing SAND [ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Cerberus ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 Gen7 does have knock, looks to be an option. I cannot believe that voltage compensation isn't there too. Am trying to get the Holley PDF now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 quote: Originally posted by clint78z: TecII is very powerful with excellent datalogging. A slick piece if you have been tuning EFI for a long time. It is very hard to learn there are 3 settings alone just to set up the base fuel map. Software is expensive. Very precise timing control, a little overkill if you ask me. The base fuel map needs two points, not three. Even if it was three, how much simpler does it need to be? We are down to 'idle jet', 'main jet' in the non-EFI equivalents here. I just don't see how this is a major concern. As far as the other required settings, as I have stated NUMEROUS times before (frustration setting in), the basic settings needed to make the cars run are fairly similar across the board. What is it really that makes everyone think that this is harder to learn? Admittedly, I don't have tons of experience with the other systems, but I have yet to see anything that makes me beleive that the others are appreciably easier. A good argument for the more precise timing control is that it allows much better control when the engine is changing speeds rapidly (as high power engines tend to do ). As far as the WinTEC software being better of worse than the the DOS based stuff, I haven't actually seen any credible evidence one way or the other. Of the people that are actually using it, I have not seen alot of evidence to support this. As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out on this one. I am currently getting ready to convert over to the WinTEC2 chip, and will report back if I find problems. I will say that I'm not terribly impressed with the Windows software, but my main complaint so far is that it's useability is not as much better as I would expect when going from the DOS-based software to the Windows environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 quote: Originally posted by BLKMGK: DFI is still down so far as number of channels but their data rate is 100mhz IF this is right. ...I think you mean 100Hz, right? (BIG difference ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Locutus Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 Dan I was wondering what fuel pump you are using for your TPI setup. I have basically the same setup and I am having a hell of time finding a decent fuel pump and regulator that is not going to break the bank. The setup summit recommend was almost 500 bucks that is as much as I paid for the TPI. The other question I have is on the Holley Commander 950, does it use your MAF or what does it do in place of that. I have a 1990 TPI and I believe you said in another post yours is a 1989 so I have a MAP sensor opposed to your MAF but the 950 is for 85-92 I am trying to figure out how they make it so broad and it still work correctly with your current equipment. Did they provide all new sensors or did you use the OEM sensors? TPI is all new to me and I have lots of questions as I am working towards getting my engine back together and running. Thanks for the Help Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad-ManQ45 Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 I believe in many respects, street EFI systems have to have more 'granularity' than racing systems. They are far more likely to experience a broader range of operating RPM's and conditions than race cars do. Add to the mix the possibility of turbocharging, and I start to have a real problem with at least one of the systems out there from the standpoint that they only have an 8X8 map for fuel and spark. Even though the computer does interpolation between points, I can't get past the broader range of temperature/rpms that the engine would operate under when factoring in boost, and feel that the extra datapoints will go a long way in making the engine live happier, stronger and longer. On a normally aspirated 6000 rpm V-8 this system would probably suffice. But if I wanted the same RPM range AND turbocharging, then I believe the combination of only 64 datapoints to cover the entire spectrum combined with an older CPU (read relatively slow) would tend to rule this system out. Too bad - as they are one of the few that will work with a mass air sensor (optional). I'm not going to name names, but I spent the bucks on their manual a few years ago in contemplating upgrading my '83 ZXT. A big plus was that Turbo Tom (hope people outside of Atlanta know of him) uses these systems and has programs for them - but he is down to doing custom work now and is EXPENSIVE. on the rother hand, to the best of my konwledge, they were the first (and possibly still only) aftermarket ECU company to have their product used in a car series and have that car series pass Federal Emissions guidlines in EPA testing. I know the MOTEC system is the racer's meow, but expensive. Accel is like most others- including MOTEC (Speed-Density). I really want a system that uses a mass air sensor because (in spite of the fact that I don't have to pass emissions) I would like to be as clean and as driveable as possible - no matter what I decide to do with the engine (who - ME change my mind?), and seeing the problems very hot cams can cuase on a 5.0 Mustang's early SD systems that the later MAS systems don't have is relatively convincing to me - that measurement of Air can help. I'm intending to use the LT1 engine and turbocharging it (after putting in new pistons and probably rods) so I am really looking at the LT1-Edit stuff. However, I am open to anyone's successful experience with any system approximating what I want to do with my engine. I'd really like to hear more views from those of you who who have tried one or more systems - anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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