Initial Timing Setting

[seattlejester]

Hey guys, I'm having some trouble here and it is not making sense hoping I could get some more input.

 

2jzge na-t running a MS2 v3.57

 

Wasted spark using individual coil on plugs from a 1zzfe (toyota matrix).

 

This setup worked on the 7mgte motor before it. The trigger wheel sensor moved about 6-7 teeth, so to start I set the tooth #1 angle timing from 95 down to 25.

 

With my timing light set to 0 (it is a dial back unit) and the timing on the ECU set to fixed timing, with a value of 10 it was showing a value of about ATDC

 

I changed the fixed timing value to 20 to get the needle onto the BTDC scale and it was reading 8*BTDC, so logically an offset of 12* was needed.

 

I set the tooth #1 angle to 37*. Ran the car and it was still showing 8*BTDC. I moved it up to 50*, still 8* BTDC, moved it up to 80*, still 8* BTDC, moved it up to 100* and still 8*BTDC. I was burning the value each time.

 

What am I doing wrong here?

 

I'm charging the car right now and I'm going to buy some starting fluid, maybe pickup some gas because it doesn't seem like it wants to run on the year old gas, but I'd like to get this timing thing sorted.

 

My only thought is, is there a lower threshold point? Like at TDC, the sensor is only 2-3 teeth away from the missing tooth. Does it need a minimum amount?

Edited May 27, 2017 by seattlejester

[dexter72]

Brian, i know your ignition setup is different then mine but did you have 5-6 teeth before the missing tooth on your wheel ??.. I will have to check on that.

 

Quick thought, How far away is your sensor from the wheel ??..

[seattlejester]

Well shoot maybe I'm confused.

 

According to this diagram

 

And my crank setup

 

 

I should be at 335*? I get that I could be 180 out due to the wasted spark nature.

 

The guy who set me up last time and verified timing set the values up and the car ran so I'm not sure whats going on here.

[seattlejester]

Brian, i know your ignition setup is different then mine but did you have 5-6 teeth before the missing tooth on your wheel ??.. I will have to check on that.

 

Quick thought, How far away is your sensor from the wheel ??..

 

My before terminology is getting confused, but I think according to the diagram above my teeth are 33.5 teeth after if I'm not mistaken?

 

Sensor seems to be reading correctly as I'm getting a pulse to the timing light regularly, I can setup a sync loss gauge if that is what you think might be happening.

[seattlejester]

Better image

[dexter72]

Just tossing out some things.... Spark output should be going low..

 

Your wheel/sensor setting may be correct, i am using edis 6. Maybe check on that..

[seattlejester]

Spark is set to going low.

 

The car started and ran a half dozen times before it ran out of juice after I messed with the settings and it wouldn't start.

 

I really think I missed the mark here and my offset is all screwed up. I assumed the TDC mark was the same on the 7m, but looking back looks like it is on the opposite side.

 

 

I think I either need to clock my wheel or set my trigger setting to 335. The ECU is probably expecting to see the missing tooth soon, but it takes so long that it is probably at some pre determined bottom threshold.

 

Will report back with my idiocy.

[dexter72]

Ok, I think you need to find what your missing tooth wheel setting should be with the wasted spark setup. If needed you can always remake your sensor bracket.

[NewZed]

Don't see how you can move the trigger wheel and have timing at 8 degrees no matter what.  It's like you have some other sort trigger mechanism.  Like you forgot that you're running a regular distributor or something.

 

The 8 degrees no matter what you do is a clue to something.

[Chickenman]

Disconnect Crank sensor so injectors don't fire and flood engine. Remove #1 Spark plug ( or all plugs to make it easier. . Turn motor over by hand ratchet or a remote starter cord till you can feel compression as piston comes up to TDC. ( Stick finger in plug hole ). Rotate final few degrees by hand instill piston is confirmed at TDC on the compression stroke.

Timing marks should be lined up at 0 degree BTDC. If not, find out why. Either damper ring has slipped, you have a mismatched damper to engine or wrong timing Tab. If everything lines up at TDC continue with the following.

 

1: Go online with your MS. Go to Trigger settings. Confirm you have the Trigger wheel configured correctly. Count back the number of Teeth from the missing Tooth to the Crank sensor. Missing Tooth should have rotated PAST the Crank sensor by X number of teeth when Engine is at TDC.

 

The missing Tooth should be 7 - 8 Teeth ahead of the sensor. Each Tooth = 10 degrees. So missing Tooth has to pass Crank sensor 70 to 80 degrees BEFORE TDC. This is very important. Re-position Crank wheel to get the missing Tooth ahead of Crank sensor by 7 to 8 teeth Minimum.  

 

2: With Crank wheel properly located, count back number of Teeth from missing Tooth to Crank sensor. Multiply that number by 10 and enter as " Tooth #1 Angle ( deg BTDC ) "  IE: Count 8 teeth back. 8 x 10 = 80 deg BTDC. The ECU has to sense when the #1 piston is approaching TDC. At cruise, combined RPM advance and Load ( vacuum ) advance can Typically be 45 to 50 degrees BTDC.  Then the ECU needs some time to do some calculations. So we add a buffer of time, measured in crank degrees. This is typically 20 to 30 degrees of crank rotation. So 50 + 30 = 80

 

3: Set Fixed Advance setting to " Fixed advance ". Set " Timing for Fixed advance " value to 10 degrees. 

 

4: Plug crank sensor back  and disconnect injector plugs. You don't want to flood engine. ( At some point I presume you have put the Plugs back in.. LOL )

 

5: Make sure battery is fully charged and is on a charger. 

 

6: Hook up your Dial Back Timing light. make sure Dial Back is set at zero.

 

7: Have assistant crank engine ( or use remote starter button ) while you observe timing marks. You want to synch the ECU to 10 deg BTDC. If timing light does not show 10 BTDC ( and it should be pretty close ) , adjust the " Tootth #1 Angle ( deg BTDC ) up or down to sync Timing mark at 10 deg. Note do NOT adjust Dial Back on Timing light. It must be set to zero. Also do NOT  moves the Crank sensor position ( if it is adjustable ). You are making all the adjustments electronically in the ECU. Do not turn off ignition or you will lose settings!!!

 

8:  Once you have ECU synched to Timing Mark of 10. Go back to the Fixed Timing button and change setting to : " Use Table" . Then " Burn " with ignition on.

 

Important Note. Tuner Studio automatically saves the Tune you are working on as a CurrentTune.msq in your Projects folder. But it only saves 1 CurrentTune.msq at a time. Evry time you close down TS or Turn off the Ignition, CurrentTune.msq will be over written. This can get you lost in a big hurry.

 

I always save my working Tunes with a unique name. TS use a date format that gets confusing. I assign names like Brian's L28 base Tune #1, Brian's Modified AFR #1, Brian's Modified AFR #2, Brian's Final Tune #127.msq,  etc. Use the " Save As " option and save often. You can over write your Saved tune .msq or just change the numeric suffix to keep archived Tunes and new tunes.  The important part is making a naming convention that you understand and to create backups that you can Load if a new Tune is all wonky.

 

I also like to export my working model AFR Tables, Ignition Timing Tables and VE Tables to a separate folder on my desktop. I will also take screenshots of all of my Tables and important settings and s ave them to a folder. Then you can print hard copies of the various tables and settings and make notes using the magic of a Pen and Paper.  Makes things much easier to understand and see (  8 x 10 glossy photo much better than a tiny LapTop screen. Just ask Arlo Guthrie.... ) 

[seattlejester]

The offset is a digital setting, but i agree something is going on.

I went back today and set the timing offset to 335. Car ran smooth and found it was reading about 22 btdc when i was asking for 10.

Logically I figured I was off so I corrected, but once again, same thing no matter the offset angle change timing was not changing. So I decided to physically clock the wheel in case the margin of werror was shoving it off the edge or something. I pulled the trigger wheel off and clocked it counter clockwise by two slots. That should equate to 90 advance in the wheel. I set the offset to 80* but the engine wont start at all now. At tdc, missing tooth is about 8 terth in front of the sensor.

So something is wrong. The lack of change makes me wonder if my cable or the fact I am running a macbook as my laptop is causing read write problems. Like i know i cant burn changes from an auto tune session while driving like my friend can with his windows laptop.

Edited May 28, 2017 by seattlejester

[seattlejester]

^posted before I read the response.

 

Thanks for the list chickenman

 

TDC mark is correct verified when installing timing belt.

 

TDC on the cam not terribly relevant as this is a wasted spark setup so independent of cam phase.

 

1. Wheel configured correctly:

Ignition input capture: Falling edge

Spark output: Going low

Number of coils: Wasted Spark

Spark A output: D14

Cam input if used: Cam input

Trigger wheel arrangement: Single wheel missing tooth

Number of teeth: 36 teeth

missing teeth: 1

Tooth offset: 110

Wheel speed: Crank 

 

Wait so the missing tooth should be PAST the sensor (further clockwise) when the engine is at TDC?

 

So in the last image posted I should actually move the wheel clockwise 1-2 spaces to get the missing tooth further clockwise of the sensor?

 

2. According to the diagram posted the counting method would be incorrect no? I'm more then happy to give the method you outline a shot and will do so.

 

So based off my last post I should clock the wheel clockwise now 4 spaces (two from clocking it counterclockwise, plus the two you recommend), and basically keep my trigger offset at 110 (about a 90* change from the picture in post 5, which shows the missing tooth 2.5-3 teeth PAST the sensor).

 

3. Fixed timing is set to 10*

 

4. I'm not sure if the light is triggering during cranking reliably. I see the inline spark tester firing, but the timing light does not seem to be blinking during cranking.

 

5. Maybe with the charger it will have more juice.

 

6. That is how I start so no problem there.

 

7-8. Will make sure to do that.

 

Saving the tune as a new file is a good idea, I fear if there is no change after all this there is some kind of read/write issue, my laptop actually froze and shut down when I tried to burn a file with the ignition on after shutting down.

Edited May 28, 2017 by seattlejester

[Chickenman]

Important:  You cannot Burn files to the ECU  with engine running.  MegaSquirt has huge warnings on this. It will corrupt the Tune's stored data. Engine has to be turned off, then ignition turned back on but engine can NOT be running. especially when changing Trigger settings. You have to switch the engine off. You will get a warning about losing Data.  Click on the " **** Off " button. Turn ignition on and you will get a Comparison screen with new Data and old data. Click on the button at the lower left to apply new settings. Very poorly written software.

 

 A good work around is an Ignition kill switch that stops the engine without cutting ignition power to the MS ECU. Otherwise you have to do the funky chicken Tuner Studio off/on hokey pokey dance. 

 

If you have Burned a Table to ECU with engine running. Delete the saved tune from any Folders and start from scratch. The download folder for Firmware updates always contains a " Default Tune " . Something that MS doesn't seem to tell you... but it's there. 

 

Here is one of the warnings ( there are several;l ) about NOT burning changes to tables or settings while the engine is running. Note: There are many more tables and settings that cannot be burned ( with engine running ) than just these two. 

 

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/configure.htm

 

 

IMPORTANT NOTE: Do NOT burn tables ('Calibrate AFR Table' or 'Calibrate Thermistor Tables') on a running engine. Even idle is NOT allowed, because these tables ONLY exist in flash, so once a table is erased, there is nothing but garbage in there until it is re-programmed, one word at a time (which can take a few seconds). Until that reprogramming is complete, operating the engine is unsafe.

 

 

There is a Tuner Studio version for Mac OS 10.7 and up, but you cannot use the Windows version . Emulators may work... I really don't know. 

 

Crank Trigger setup and Toothed Wheel #1 is explained on page #123 of MS 3.57 hardware manual:

 

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.html

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Chickenman

[seattlejester]

I will edit the replies with caps once I am sitting in front of a computer, apologies to mods in advance

Hmm, never knew that, the one guy I saw tuning on the street was just burning like in the autotune feature I am not sure how you would save the suggested changes without burning to a running engine or I guess like you suggested having a power to just the ecu option. Perhaps just manipulating fuel load and timing values is not as problematic as changing the thermister or afr target values? I will have to do some more reading.

I am used to the settings that say a power cycle is needed, but didnt know about that when it doesnt give a warning it was also bad, should be common sense in retrospect good to know.

Not terribly applicable in my case as I havent set the idle high so the stall the engine faces causes it to shut down if you try a running burn.

So good news engine is running and timing is off by maybe 1-2 degrees i can definitely live with that.

I set the timing as suggested physically moved the wheel forward 4 slots so tdc coincided with 8-9 teeth after the missing tooth has passed.

Engine fired up and was showing maybe 1-2 degrees btdc when I asked for 10.

To give the read write the best chance I shut the car off completely, wrote in the change changing tooth offset 8 degrees, and turned the ignition back on forcing the ECU to recognize the change in value, instead of trying to write with just the ignition on. That seemed to have no affect. I did the same with asking for 15 btdc on the fixed and that too now didn't have an affect. I then set it back asking for 10 again, and moved the trigger offset by 8 degrees in the opposite direction, power cycled two times and seems like it responded. It is now showing 9 or so when I am asking for 10.

There definitely seems to be a read write problem. I know I have to run the older version of tuner studio (3.06 vs 3.22 i believe) for mac as updating to the newest version would not allow the program to run. In console it shows the program reaching out to an address or directory it cannot find and crashing.

I really need to go through the megamanual again, I do appreciate your help! Hopefully just some tuning left to do now.

Edited May 28, 2017 by seattlejester

[seattlejester]

Ah oops that is where I wrote it incorrectly my laptop froze when I had the car ignition running (car not on), and tried to burn the new value.

Edited May 28, 2017 by seattlejester

[Chickenman]

Looks like the Mac Book could be part of the issue.... especially as it crashes with the latest version of TS.  

 

Buy a cheap Laptop with a serial port. Nothing fancy.  Load it up with Windows XP. 7, 8.1 or 10 and use it only for tuning. I have a Dell D630 that I use just for tuning loaded with XP Pro. 

Edited May 29, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

 

 

There definitely seems to be a read write problem. I know I have to run the older version of tuner studio (3.06 vs 3.22 i believe) for mac as updating to the newest version would not allow the program to run. In console it shows the program reaching out to an address or directory it cannot find and crashing.

 Whoa.... hold on. 3.06 and 3.22 versions  of TS are Windows only programs. You shouldn't be running those on a Mac.

 

There is a separate version for Mac. Latest is 3.0.0.1 And it's only good for Mac OS 10.7 and later...

 

http://www.tunerstudio.com/index.php/downloads

Edited May 29, 2017 by Chickenman

[seattlejester]

Sorry once again going off of memory.

 

The program itself wants me to download to the 3.0.22 version via a prompt. After following that the program behaves as described (flashes up on screen, tries to communicate, then crashes). Looking up problems I found a post saying that to try that version, but under the linux menu as OS X can run/convert the linux to run apparently which didn't seem to work. 

 

So I manually installed the older version I was running which I believe was the 3.0.01 for the mac

 

Looks like the current version I am running is the 3.0.01 so I am ignoring the prompt to update which may be incorrect as you point out. Still definitely some hiccups, think I might just pickup a used laptop to try and run tuner studio as suggested.

[dexter72]

Brian, looks like your starting to get things figured out.