Push button start with ACC toggle, Need edumacation!

[Jboogsthethug]

Hi all,

So I recently bought a toggle panel/push button start combo (here's the link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JYRFLHG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). Pretty good build quality for the price, but I am rather uneducated when it comes to wiring. My goal is to be able to flip the first red switch and have that be my ACC power switch, then push the start button and off I go.

 

I ripped out the old harness entirely and have rewired the car with an EZ wiring 21 circuit kit. Currently, It's getting power to the button but it's not cranking over anything. Also, when I turn the ACC switch the power goes through to the button, but even when I turn off the switch the current continues to flow through, I'm assuming the relay is set up incorrectly. After having that problem I did some research and drew up this diagram of what I think would be what I want, but in the diagram, I have the ACC toggle on its own, whereas I want it to be in line with the power to the button if possible. The Toggles are 3 prong units, so I think it's possible? I am hoping somebody can look this over and give me some practical advice and tell me if I'm close, and if not, what I need to change up! Thanks in advance. Here are the photos/

Edited December 20, 2017 by Jboogsthethug
Adding of forgotten information.

[Namor]

Here is a diagram using the wires that go to the stock ignition switch (I used a diagram for a 77, so your wire colors from the stock harness might not match up).  This is the least intrusive way to accomplish what you want.  If you have messed with more of your stock wiring, you may need to do some things differently though.  

[z mouse]

By your photos,it looks like you installed a new harness?

Start with some basics to understand the ignition system.

Using an ignition switch along with a starter button and kill switch might be better.

A site like this one may help   www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/hot-rod-wiring.html

[Jboogsthethug]

4 hours ago, Namor said:

Here is a diagram using the wires that go to the stock ignition switch (I used a diagram for a 77, so your wire colors from the stock harness might not match up).  This is the least intrusive way to accomplish what you want.  If you have messed with more of your stock wiring, you may need to do some things differently though.  

Thanks for the responses! Sorry, I should've stated I rewired with the EZ wiring harness, so it's completely different now! But, that diagram might just help me understand things a bit more by studying it. I'm curious, the diagram has the "off-acc-on-start" on the top, then the connections underneath it. Are the white circles the connections made, and everything else is bypassed? for instance, the ACC connectes the battery to the ignition relay but doesn't connect to the starter, transistor, and coil? thanks again!

 

 

4 hours ago, z mouse said:

By your photos,it looks like you installed a new harness?

Start with some basics to understand the ignition system.

Using an ignition switch along with a starter button and kill switch might be better.

A site like this one may help   www.how-to-build-hotrods.com/hot-rod-wiring.html

You are indeed correct, I thought I put that in my description but I must've forgotten, I'' edit it in now for future reference. I have been to that website but some of the links from that like seem to be pretty helpful in pointing me in the way, thank you! I'll update with my findings.

 

[Namor]

5 minutes ago, Jboogsthethug said:

I'm curious, the diagram has the "off-acc-on-start" on the top, then the connections underneath it. Are the white circles the connections made, and everything else is bypassed? for instance, the ACC connectes the battery to the ignition relay but doesn't connect to the starter, transistor, and coil? thanks again!
 

 

That's exactly how it works.  I guess the only thing I failed to notice is that the line I have labeled going to Ignition relay would still be connected during starting.  On a 77 this would just mean that the radio, air conditioning and wipe would still have power during cranking, whereas it cut power to them from the factory during cranking.  

[Jboogsthethug]

48 minutes ago, Namor said:

 

That's exactly how it works.  I guess the only thing I failed to notice is that the line I have labeled going to Ignition relay would still be connected during starting.  On a 77 this would just mean that the radio, air conditioning and wipe would still have power during cranking, whereas it cut power to them from the factory during cranking.  

1

ok so just to make sure I have this correct. I would need a relay on the toggle that then goes into the push button start, and I'd need another relay system on that? (The ignition relay?) Where would that go to from there? The Alternator? Sorry for the lack of understanding, It's probably so simple and I'm overthinking things. 

Also, do I just no use the wires to x1 and x2 on my button? or do I have power to x1 from the battery and then ground on x2?

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Jboogsthethug

[Namor]

The relay is energized via the toggle.  That applies power to the output of the relay (Terminal 87).  This would essentially be your accessory power as well as power to the coil via ignition relay.  This power is stopped from going to the starter solenoid and starting wire to the coil/resistor by the push button.  When you push the button those are both energized, allowing the starter to turn the engine over and fire.  I have gone megasquirt, so I am not sure why it needs a second wire to the coil for starting, but I think it might be to create a hotter spark while starting.  

 

 

If the toggle switch can handle enough current, you could technically just eliminate the relay in the diagram above and hook the toggle up to the wires that are shown going to terminals 30 and 87 of the relay.  

 

Without knowing what was done to your existing wiring, I'm not sure anyone will be able to really help you.  As for the switch, X3 to X4 appears to be a normally open contact, which is what you need.  I don't know what X1/X2 is, but you shouldn't need it and unless it is used to illuminate the switch, you definitely do not want to put power and ground across it. 

 

You should definitely read up on dc circuits though, you are asking questions about some very basic concepts that I would expect anyone to know if they are messing with the wiring in their car.  

[Jboogsthethug]

38 minutes ago, Namor said:

The relay is energized via the toggle.  That applies power to the output of the relay (Terminal 87).  This would essentially be your accessory power as well as power to the coil via ignition relay.  This power is stopped from going to the starter solenoid and starting wire to the coil/resistor by the push button.  When you push the button those are both energized, allowing the starter to turn the engine over and fire.  I have gone megasquirt, so I am not sure why it needs a second wire to the coil for starting, but I think it might be to create a hotter spark while starting.  

 

 

If the toggle switch can handle enough current, you could technically just eliminate the relay in the diagram above and hook the toggle up to the wires that are shown going to terminals 30 and 87 of the relay.  

 

Without knowing what was done to your existing wiring, I'm not sure anyone will be able to really help you.  As for the switch, X3 to X4 appears to be a normally open contact, which is what you need.  I don't know what X1/X2 is, but you shouldn't need it and unless it is used to illuminate the switch, you definitely do not want to put power and ground across it. 

 

You should definitely read up on dc circuits though, you are asking questions about some very basic concepts that I would expect anyone to know if they are messing with the wiring in their car.  

3

 

Haha I definitely could use some reading up on DC circuitry. I've learned quite a bit from online research but I won't proclaim to know much unfortunately haha. I understand how a relay works and such, but what confuses me the most is why my push button has 4 prongs, and which exact wires I can tie into the system and which ones would need to be on their own route. I found my diagram online somewhere a while back, but I cannot find it again. Some guy wired up his car and drew that up. Either way, thanks for the info!

[Jboogsthethug]

Though I am assuming my button has a built-in relay and that's what that is. But that's just me assuming and I really have no idea ha

[Jboogsthethug]

which if that was the case, wouldn't I be able to essentially pull this off? I mean I'm not positive  so I'm probably jumping the gun but I don't really know what else it would be for.

[tamo3]

I think you need 2 switches. One is for starter that you have push button and the other one is as “on” position toggle switch. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by tamo3

[Jboogsthethug]

20 hours ago, tamo3 said:

I think you need 2 switches. One is for starter that you have push button and the other one is as “on” position toggle switch. 

I think you're right. After going out last night and taking my time and figuring out what Namor was talking about his diagram began to make a lot more sense. I also tested my button to figure out what it's functions are. the bottom (so X3 and X4 on the diagram) are what has a power flow through it, but only when the button is pushed. X1 & X2 are on a separate circuit completely, and the only function for those two is to power up the button light (x1) and x2 is the ground. seem to be more so there for grounding purposes. Currently, I'm going to try and wire it up as his diagram suggest, but I don't have an ignition relay I don;t believes so I'm taking the first switch and having the power run through that as shown above, then the power goes to the button on x2, and I have the starter connected to that so it only gets power when pressed. The power then daisy chains from that port to the next switch that has constant voltage to my coil, brown ignition wire, and orange ACC wire. I have each of these grounded off wiht the third prong of each switch. It seems to be correct in my mind, they are each only getting the relayed power through them, not full voltage. except maybe that first main switch. rock on!

[Jboogsthethug]

Here is my current diagram based off of that I explained above. I tested it out last night, and though I've daisy chained from same screw ports I'm not getting constant power to the button/2nd switch, only when I press it down. The strange thing is that when using my Multimeter I am getting continuity throughout, at least while the battery is disconnected in the vehicle. My starter is still not going. I'll test the other end later to see if power is being supplied but It should be getting power. Upon researching my thoughts are because I used 87A on the relay, rather than 87 (87 normally open, 87a normally closed?) I'll try that as well and switch it. Strangely, I did a continuity test on my relay and didn't' get any continuity through 87, but 87a was fine, hence why I used that instead. I imagine it's so simple and my very limited understanding is laughable to people who know what the problem is ha.) I also am Pretty sure I need to have my coil on the constant switch, rather than with the starter?

 

Here are a few pics as well to show the situation and answer anybody else's question about the push start button if they were confused like myself.

 

[Namor]

2 hours ago, Jboogsthethug said:

Here is my current diagram based off of that I explained above. I tested it out last night, and though I've daisy chained from same screw ports I'm not getting constant power to the button/2nd switch, only when I press it down. The strange thing is that when using my Multimeter I am getting continuity throughout, at least while the battery is disconnected in the vehicle. My starter is still not going. I'll test the other end later to see if power is being supplied but It should be getting power. Upon researching my thoughts are because I used 87A on the relay, rather than 87 (87 normally open, 87a normally closed?) I'll try that as well and switch it. Strangely, I did a continuity test on my relay and didn't' get any continuity through 87, but 87a was fine, hence why I used that instead. I imagine it's so simple and my very limited understanding is laughable to people who know what the problem is ha.) I also am Pretty sure I need to have my coil on the constant switch, rather than with the starter?

 

Here are a few pics as well to show the situation and answer anybody else's question about the push start button if they were confused like myself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are the grounds on the toggle switches just to light them up?

 

The second toggle isn't really needed.  Just run those wires directly to terminal 87 on the relay.  (and as you figured out, not 87A)  It wouldn't hurt anything to have the second toggle though but the only benefit I could see is being able to shut the engine off while keeping the relay powered (if you have other loads also powered off this relay)

 

The coil does need to come off before the pushbutton (so terminal 87 of relay)  but the stock wiring had two wires that went to the coil/resistor.  One was energized while running AND starting (so the equivalent of before the button) and the other was energized only while starting (so the equivalent of after the button.)  The one I labeled "to coil" above, was the latter.  The other I labeled "Transistor Ign Unit and Coil"

 

 

[Jboogsthethug]

 

56 minutes ago, Namor said:

Are the grounds on the toggle switches just to light them up?

 

The second toggle isn't really needed.  Just run those wires directly to terminal 87 on the relay.  (and as you figured out, not 87A)  It wouldn't hurt anything to have the second toggle though but the only benefit I could see is being able to shut the engine off while keeping the relay powered (if you have other loads also powered off this relay)

 

The coil does need to come off before the pushbutton (so terminal 87 of relay)  but the stock wiring had two wires that went to the coil/resistor.  One was energized while running AND starting (so the equivalent of before the button) and the other was energized only while starting (so the equivalent of after the button.)  The one I labeled "to coil" above, was the latter.  The other I labeled "Transistor Ign Unit and Coil"

 

 

1

From what I've Gathered, the grounds are there mainly for the light purpose. I would think it would also be a preventative for short circuits but they definitely are needed for the lights to work, and the switches work without the grounds.

 

Genius! I read that you could run power to multiple accessories from the same relay, I now understand how, thanks much! I would prefer the one switch setup much more.

And I've read online that people do indeed wire it that way, so while starting the coil gets the full 12V from the starter then while running it gets a reduced amperage. I think my kit may have some sort of connection like that through the fusebox, as I do have my negative coil wire that is purple, just like the starter wire. It would make sense if it leads to that, based off the color coding. I'll have the check the voltage at the coil once I turn on the switch and when I am starting it to see if that is how that works, for future EZ wiring user's sakes. (their instructions are almost nonexistent as well). I just deleted that from your diagram as I don't have a transistor unit in my wiring (that I know of). Or the ignition relay for that matter. 

 

just one final check, does this look right based off of your explanation? Thanks again for all the advice. It's definitely been interesting to learn all this. Relays really are magical in their own sense haha

[Jboogsthethug]

haha after looking at the original diagram you posted with my newfound knowledge I see that it is indeed almost identical to what I posted, minus the second coil wire and adding in the wire to the button light. I am sorry for the frustration I must have caused you throughout this!

[Namor]

No problem, as long as you learned something through the process.  

[Jboogsthethug]

On 12/22/2017 at 5:55 PM, Namor said:

No problem, as long as you learned something through the process.  

Definitely learned a good bit, the knowledge about the relays alone is awesome! It took a bit to get this posted as I needed to get a new starter, but this system works great! Thanks for the info again Namor!

 

Here's a video if anyone cares to see her turn over. 

IMG_2621.MOV

Edited December 31, 2017 by Jboogsthethug

[Zetsaz]

"Yeah boooiiiiii" haha.

 

Some nice work on this!

[MrPhotographer06]

Excited to see this turn out. Considering adding it to mine in the near future now the cage is installed.