Pro Drag 240Z for Import racing. Which engine?

[Guest JAMIE T]

I'm talking to a shop about building a 240Z for Pro Drag racing. IDRA, etc... It will have a full tube chassis, 32" slicks, automatic('glide) obviously a solid rear axle. This is my specailty. I want to use a RB26DETT, but I know the VG30DETT is more readily available. Everything will be re-worked, rods, pistons, turbo, stand-alone ecu, it will be a max effort RACE car. Which engine would you guys recommend for this application. We NEED it to get serious magazine press, so I think the RB26 is the way to go. Everyone goes nuts over GTR power. Basically, the car will be like Jap Tin's white Drag Z, except with Nissan power. The car is being built to showcase our work and attract attention for the business. I think the Q45 engine is out of the question(though I would rather use it) since all the import racers are crying about the Scrantons Celica with the V8TT power. I just thought about this, how is the aftermarket for the 3.5L's, whats it called? A VG35? Like, does anyone offer rods and pistons yet? I would make the turbo headers, and custom intake manifold for it. Any word on the durability of the short block? I think we will need over 1000hp to be competitive. Luckily our dyno goes to 1200hp.

[Guest Ian turbo240]

If this is a "money is no object" effort, then you have a lot of options. The RB is a good choice since 1000+hp has been done and documented. The VG30DETT is also a good choice because of the availability of parts in the USA. Getting 1000+hp will be a little more challenging with the VG30DETT. The VQ35 is already being offered by NISMO as a crate engine with 450hp n/a. The VQ would be a good choice just because it is new and hasn't been developed much yet. I think that it has a lot of potential. Too bad about not using a V8. Along with HP you need torque for drag racing, and a V8 is all about that. What the import crowd needs to realize is that even though it's a V8, it's an import V8. How many American V8's came with DOHC and 32 valves? I can only think of 2. That's the Corvette ZR1 and Mustang Cobra 4.6. Nissan and Toyota have already been thorugh many versions of DOHC, 32 valve V8's. The one to use IMHO would be the current Q45 V8. At 345hp stock, it should have pretty good potential with TT's. Anyway, that's my $.02.

 

Ian

[Guest JAMIE T]

Ian, I agree 100%. V8 would be the way to go. I don't think they are gonna run V8 class anymore. All the competitors started when the Scrantons ran 200mph. We are not looking to go 200mph. More like 170-180. I had not heard about the 450hp NA VQ35's. Nismo Crate motors? Whats this world coming to? We may even decide to make it one of the street tire class cars. To keep it real for the customers. They like to see street type cars run single digits. We may look into the VQ35's. It would be a used engine since most of the internals will be replaced anyway, and none of the exterior engine accesories will be used. Just heads, block, and crank will be used. Custom cams, rods, low comp. pistons, intake and exhaust manifolds(for the twins). We'll see about it. I'll let everyone know if this is going to happen. I sure hope so.

[slownrusty]

Jamie - talking from a spectator's point of view - I prefer to see a street tire class car that lines up at the tree and runs a hot time. Its neat to see tubbed and tube frame cars but most racers can relate to the street tire class cars as it closely represents the cars they actually drive on a day to day basis.

 

I think this is important if you want to showcase your work and shop - that way the car can be your business card.

 

Yes Nismo are offering the VG35 as 450hp crate set-up - which I think is neat - this might just be the ticket? Not sure on the pricing though.

 

Hope that helps and thats my 2Cents - Good luck

 

Regards - Yasin

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

Originally posted by Ian turbo240:

The RB is a good choice since 1000+hp has been done and documented. The VG30DETT is also a good choice because of the availability of parts in the USA. Getting 1000+hp will be a little more challenging with the VG30DETT.

I think it's a cheaper and easier to get 1000+ hp out of the VG30DETT. There have been 1000+hp VG's for at least 10 years, and when I went to an import race event in Englishtown, NJ, there were quite a few drag cars running either the VG30DETT or the VG30DET (single turbo version), but not RB's.

 

As you said later on in your post, torque is important, and the RB is giving up .4 liters to the VG.

 

BTW, add the Northstar engines to your list of DOHC V8's.

[Guest empracing]

what ever ya do email me the pics this sounds just right for my website when it gets off the ground pluss ide like to see it!!! theres a tube z with a rb already around so ide go different if you really want the books to show it slap in the vg/q we have a vg30dett in a r31 skyline over here in au but it never runs what about the sr/fj's theres a few in au running into the 7's

or at least the 8's food for thort think outside the square

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

Originally posted by JAMIE T:

Ian, I agree 100%. V8 would be the way to go. I don't think they are gonna run V8 class anymore. All the competitors started when the Scrantons ran 200mph. We are not looking to go 200mph. More like 170-180.

As others have said, the V8 would be your best bet. I know what you're saying about needing press and using the RB for the hype it generates, but in my opinion you need to choose between hype and horsepower. The RB will produce hype, the Q45 will produce HP, the VG something in between.

 

At the last event I went to, the VG powered cars I saw ran in the 170's and 180's for trap speed. One was a 300ZX Twin Turbo race car, and the other was a Z31 model 300ZX, with a VG30DET in it.

[Z-Dreamer]

So you want to build something like this?

 

www.autospeed.com/A_0505/page1.html

 

Mark

[Guest livewire23]

may be a stupid question, but why is no-one looking at a, say, 1JZ or 2JZ. Is this a nissan only deal? I figure it must be, since no-one's mentioned anything else.

[Scottie-GNZ]

Jamie

 

1st, good luck in your venture. I have wanted to do exactly that but just do not have the budget to run in those classes or the time to follow the circuit. Also, they restrict use of my engine of choice, a Buick Stage II. Engine must be from the same manufacturer.

 

Since you have to do an engine buildup, either engines will make the power and have the reliability you want. When you are talking about that kind of power levels from a turbo, .4L smaller does not necessarily mean less torque. If the class has a weight penalty for nitrous, take the penalty and build the engine to run nitrous and try to run at the weight minimum.

 

Talk to Jap Tin and Ron Jones about their chassis setup. No point in reinventing the wheel as both are proven chassis in the 8s.

[stony]

I agree. Ive said it before ill say it again. Although i love mine and im glad i did it, I would have never of done it if i lived in the US at the time. the 2JZ i think would have been my choice. I just love the way the inline 6 open wastegate sounds ;>. The only thing i dont like about the rb is the way i feel about 20 seconds before i release the clutch fearing something in the motor or tranny will break

[Guest Dan0myte]

Jamie, if you're really serious about the 1000hp goal, a Toyota JZ series engine is the only way to go. Both in terms of cost, durability and drivability, it would be unmatched.

 

The RB26 will also accomplish this goal, but it will cost quite a bit more and have a powerband only really suited for the track.

[Owen]

Sounds like an awesome project, good luck!

 

It's saddening that there are rules to prevent the use of certain engines and makes...I know these rules are there for many reasons, but what about a no-rules category for the low(er)-buck racer?

 

A category for people like those on HybridZ who aren't bound to petty rules such as same car/mfgr, displacement rules, etc!

 

Owen

[Guest ON3GO]

stick with nissan motors as like what Scottie said, and i would go with the VG30DETT, just because it would be cheaper, you can make as much hp as you will need and when racing like that you always need to have a spare motor and gear box laying around and it would be kinda rough to have spare RB's laying around.

plus when you get featured in Mags they can say Old Z car with newer Z performance..

all Z all the time.

but the VQ35 would be sweet, plus in japan they already have those things twin turboed..

and i think also they outlaw'ed the V8 class, or something like that.

so no V8!

 

mike

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

Originally posted by Dan0myte:

Jamie, if you're really serious about the 1000hp goal, a Toyota JZ series engine is the only way to go.

The 2JZ is a great engine. But it is a bit overhyped.

 

If it was the "only way to go" then why don't you see 2JZ powered Supra race cars running 7's in the quarter mile and how come the 2JZ powered Supras kept coming up short to beat the VG powered 300ZX's speed record set in 1991?

 

I would think if that car/engine really did have a mechanical advantage over the Z/VG, then you'd see them, not the Z, holding both the acceleration and top speed records.

 

Just a thought...

[Scottie-GNZ]

Guys, it does not matter what anyone thinks of the xJZ or any other engine. Jamie has no choice but to run a Nissan engine.

 

What class are you looking to run, Pro? Tough competition, but if I recall, the minimum weight for a 6-cyl is 2,100 + power-adder penalties. Even with that light weight you will definitely need 1,000hp to be competitive.

 

I am pumped for you, man. Keep us posted.

[Guest Dan0myte]

Originally posted by MegaShaft_2000:

If it was the "only way to go" then why don't you see 2JZ powered Supra race cars running 7's in the quarter mile and how come the 2JZ powered Supras kept coming up short to beat the VG powered 300ZX's speed record set in 1991?

That's a little near-sighted of you to say. First of all, you're talking about things that have to do with the MKIV Supra as a car, not the 2JZ engine itself. The Supra's rear suspension set up isn't the best for drag racing and is a real challenge to launch correctly. It's how a guy can make a 600hp Supra, then go out and run 12's with it. The fact that people have gotten the cars into the 8's is amazing on it's own. The Skyline is blessed with a suspension that will give good traction under acceleration, as well as AWD. A good 60' is the only difference between a 7 and and an 8.

 

But anyways, please try this again, but this time stick to merits of the engine itself and not of one of the cars it happened to come in.

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

Originally posted by Dan0myte:

First of all, you're talking about things that have to do with the MKIV Supra as a car, not the 2JZ engine itself.

The VG powered race cars I referred to no longer had the stock frame, so the suspension of the original car no longer applies to the race car. Aren't there any purpose built drag cars running 2JZ's?

 

Also, you only addressed the drag racing portion of my post. What about the speed record that I mentioned? Suspension and launching have nothing to do with top speed, yet you conveniently ignored that topic because the results could not be blamed on the suspension.

[Guest MegaShaft_2000]

If you want to strictly talk about the engine itself, I'll mention something about the Supra's engine, the Skyline's engine and the Z's engine.

 

Most of the big power Skylines and Supras have very large single turbos. Nearly all the big power VG's I've seen stay with twins, mostly due to space constraints.

 

The big single turbo powered Supras and Skylines have peaky torque curves due to the huge laggy turbo. Add to that the fact that many of them cam their car to produce the most peak HP so it looks good on a dyno, but decreases from the average power output. The 6 speed the 2JZ is paired with helps a little with the narrower power band but requires more time shifting and more time waiting for the turbo to reach full spool again.

 

They could have gone with smaller turbos and less aggressive cams and gained a broader torque curve, but most of them are content being dyno queens.

 

What this means once you put it in a car is that the engine will have a nice kick towards the end of the gears but the rest of your RPM range suffered.

 

I have a video of a highway run (I'd guess around 40-150 mph) between a modded 300ZX and a single turbo Supra. The power bands of both cars are evident. The Z pulls ahead for a moment in one gear, then the Supra gains a little back at the end of his gear. Next gear is the same thing, the Z extends its lead, and the Supra takes back a little at the end of that gear. Next gear the same thing happens. By the end of the race the Z has a good few carlengths on the Supra. Keep in mind the Z had around 430 rwhp, and the Supra around 500 rwhp. The weights of both cars are about the same. While the Supra's peak power was greater than the Z's, the Z's *average* power output throughout that run was higher.

 

The same thing principle is illustrated with Buick Grand National engines. If you see most of them dyno, their peak HP isn't all that high because they're low revving engines. But they have so much torque and it starts at such a low RPM that their average power output throughout a run is pretty damn high.

 

I hope I explained it clearly.

[Guest Dan0myte]

If you'd like to talk about torque production, please post a dyno plot (of your choosing) of a VG. Preferrably of one near the 1000hp mark that Jamie is requesting. I'd just like to take a look at the torque curve of such an engine.