cyrus Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I am so heart broken, you guys know how I busted my tail to do this car. I research everything so I could be legal and feel no guilt about my car. I want the car to be totally legal. Most people just want to not get caught. I know I will not get caught but that is not the point. Ok here goes... I called the Bearu of automotive repair here in california. THey do smog suff for Cali. There are two techs that answer questions jeff, and wes. I talked to jeff about the LS6 I was considering for a swap. He said ALL OBD II swaps were ILLEGAL because you could not swap over all the neccassary equipment. He said that the systems were chasis specific. He tried to stump me by asking if I had used the fuel tank. I have! Anyways he said it could not be done and was not legal. He said I needed to have the car certified and that that cost $5000 dollars. He was a jerk to me. Can anyone point me to some gov person that can make sense of this situation. I want to feel good about going 119 in the quarter again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Look up the rules in the CA Health and Safety code. If there is no reference in there, then they cannot disallow it. It has to be in the rules!! Look here: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 ...He said ALL OBD II swaps were ILLEGAL because you could not swap over all the neccassary equipment. He said that the systems were chasis specific. ... I never believe sentences that claim "all" like he did. I think he gets off by razzing people that call him. Is your car a 240Z? If so, he can put a sock in it. Give it some time and try to email JTR with a few questions (not a book, mind you) and see what Mike Knell has to say. "Chassis specific" sounds like legalese for "I'm not sure either, but this sounds good." Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 There is another group here in Cali that does a ton of smog stuff. I wanna say CARB, but I'm not sure if that's more for businesses than for individuals. Some of those people are "evil", or rather don't have a clue. I thought I've heard of OBD-II swaps, but you never know. Oh yah, the smog exemption (better said as smog check exempt) is now for 1974 and older as I know it. The 260 is now in that category. Hope you get some of this figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrus Posted May 21, 2003 Author Share Posted May 21, 2003 Heres a little more info the car is a 71 240z i used the engine and trans from a 2001 ss six speed. The only thing I can think of is that when the crank trigger senses a misfire it makes sure that the car is actually missing by checking the wheels sensors to determine if you are on a "rough road". This is not an issue with automatics. Obviously I do not have the wheel abs sensors. I do know that chevy offers a ls1 to be used with a automatic trans in 1975 and older cars. I think because pre 1975 do not need Catalytics. I know this is the reason that the supra lost its manual trans in 96 is because they could not sense the rough road condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 You need to be careful when dealing with government clerks. They like to feel in charge, so they are going to give you an answer no matter what. It is a rare clerk that will actually check on anything. OBDII cars would exclude ALL engines made since 1996, not just LS1's. My suggestion would be to call the bone head back and tell him you want to get a car inspected. When they give you the address of the referee station, then go there and ask they guy who will actually award the certificate what HE is going to look for. When you find out he was wrong, call back and ask to speak to his supervisor. BTW, the "smog exempt" rule only means your car is exempt from annual inspections. Technically even "smog exempt" cars are suppose to meet all smog requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrus Posted May 21, 2003 Author Share Posted May 21, 2003 your last line=exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 So, if a car is smog exempt and not subject to inspections, what is the problem? Can't you just renew your registration as a 240Z? I know California is much more complicated than the rest of the union so there obviously is more here. In Texas, once a car is 25 years old (based on the chassis, not the engine) it is exempted from emmissions testing and I can literally stick anything in it that I want. Back to the clerk. If you have a conversion that includes all the sensing points an OBD II normally pick up (fuel tank pressure, 02 sensors, etc.) then he has just contradicted himself. I don't think that's necessary though. One more item. HOw many thousand street rods are running around CA with either recent LT1 or LS1 motors. I know there are plenty of them here in Texas. That guy just doesn't know what he's talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrus Posted May 21, 2003 Author Share Posted May 21, 2003 Comrade, You must remember I live in the communitist republic of california (CRC). Smog laws always change. In 5 years I might have to smog. I have no interest in going all the way with this car if it is not legal. I know their is a law coming up to smog all cars up to 40 years old effective in 2005! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Remember, it's a Federal crime to remove or tamper with emissions control equipment. The individual States also have rules forbidding this type of tampering. Bottom line, although you don't need to smog test pre-1974 vehicles in CA, you ARE required to have all of the original smog equipment installed and operational, and if you do an engine change, you ARE required to have it Certified by the State. The rub is this: Without having to take it in for a smog test, there really is no enforcment protocol in place to catch you. So, unless you get stopped at a roadside mobile emissions checkpoint (very very doubtful in CA due to the current Budget crisis), or get pulled over and the Cop gets wise and looks under the hood (also somewhat unlikely), then you are in the clear. Just be aware that the Federal penalties are very severe ($10,000.00 plus jail time) Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Comrade' date=' You must remember I live in the communitist republic of california (CRC). Smog laws always change. In 5 years I might have to smog. I have no interest in going all the way with this car if it is not legal. I know their is a law coming up to smog all cars up to 40 years old effective in 2005![/quote'] That one was defeated. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 BTW, the "smog exempt" rule only means your car is exempt from annual inspections. Technically even "smog exempt" cars are suppose to meet all smog requirements. Yep, if you really want to be legal if you update the engine your supposed to get the vehicle re-certified, which means time and money, and yes carrying over any smog related equipment for the car, charcoal canister, the whole 9 yards. Also as noted above, removing a CAT or similar is a federal offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 So, other than a PCV valve, what emmissions controls did the 240Z have in CA? I know the catalytic converter didn't come along until the 280Z. Currently, as long as the car meets the emmissions requirements and has installed the same control equipment (PCV) doesn't it conform? Or does CA evaluate based on engine year rather than chassis year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oltmann Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I looked into this quite a bit because I have a 96 LT1, and my conclusion was that it was impossible to do a smog legal swap because: - You are NOT required use cats on a chassis that didn't come with them because it is too dangerous. - Without cats the after-cat O2 sensors will cause the PCM to throw a code. - There is no legal way to eliminate the codes. I know you can reprogram the PCM or use O2 simulators, BUT both of these things are not legal. If you used the cats themselves though, I think you would be ok. Just be careful that they won't set your car on fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 So, other than a PCV valve, what emmissions controls did the 240Z have in CA? I know the catalytic converter didn't come along until the 280Z. Currently, as long as the car meets the emmissions requirements and has installed the same control equipment (PCV) doesn't it conform? Or does CA evaluate based on engine year rather than chassis year? My 73 had air pump, egr, and pcv, but you are required to keep all the smog equipment that comes with the new engine. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gprix1 Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Back when I was going to do a Diablo replica on a stretched Fiero chassis, I spoke to the inspector at the referee station (the guy who actually certifies replacement motors). He told me as long as all the original smog equipment (charcoal canister, etc) was there it was no problem at all. Also, the part about cat's not being required on cars which did not originally have them, that is true though you may want to add them anyways for the reasons mentioned in the earlier posts. Just make sure you install a heatshield above them. Another thing the guy at the referee station told me was "The worst that can happen is you go to inspect it and not everything is completed. We will tell you what needs to be done and once that's taken care of you will get your sticker." so you should not be too worried about it. - Rick Scott - Sacramento, CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I looked into this quite a bit because I have a 96 LT1, and my conclusion was that it was impossible to do a smog legal swap because: - You are NOT required use cats on a chassis that didn't come with them because it is too dangerous. - Without cats the after-cat O2 sensors will cause the PCM to throw a code. - There is no legal way to eliminate the codes. I know you can reprogram the PCM or use O2 simulators, BUT both of these things are not legal. Couldn't you just install a second set of O2 sensors? Would be stupid, but within the letter of the law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I looked into this quite a bit because I have a 96 LT1' date=' and my conclusion was that it was impossible to do a smog legal swap because: - You are NOT required use cats on a chassis that didn't come with them because it is too dangerous. - Without cats the after-cat O2 sensors will cause the PCM to throw a code. - There is no legal way to eliminate the codes. I know you can reprogram the PCM or use O2 simulators, BUT both of these things are not legal. [/quote'] Couldn't you just install a second set of O2 sensors? Would be stupid, but within the letter of the law? I may be wrong, but since that would cause the MIL to illuminate, the inspector may have a problem with that. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianz Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 Yup, the emissions laws will always be an illogical, knee jerk, convoluted mess. That’s what happens when politicians try to control a complex technical issue. So as a result, it is better to ask forgiveness than permission. The Idea that a stock 1972 impala belching hydrocarbons is legal while an LT1 converted Z running fuel injection with much lower emissions is not is absolutely REDICULOUS but happens to be fact.... I think the guy from Texas is on to something...do some research into the local custom/hotrod clubs to see how they address this mess. I believe many of them register as historical vehicles. This holds you to a limited # of miles per year, but it's an option. My question is how do you register or transfer title on a non stock pre 74 car (aka a Z) in Ca. I think a smog check is still required for that, so what do you do?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest gprix1 Posted May 21, 2003 Share Posted May 21, 2003 I may be wrong, but since that would cause the MIL to illuminate, the inspector may have a problem with that. I have done the research on this and it's not that big a deal really. Install it with all the smog stuff. The DMV will issue a temporary pass to let you take it to the referee. Take it to the referee and if there is anything they don't like they will simply let you know what they want and you do it. They will not fine you or anything for making a mistake. Once you have the sticker that certifies the engine in your chassis, you are golden. As for the cat's, since you have a chassis that does not require the cat's, personally, I would leave them out and put in those emulator thingies that emulate the post-cat' 02 sensors and fool the ECU into thinking you have the cat's and you don't throw a code. Once the Referee inpector notes that it's a non-cat' chassis he will not bother with inspecting for a cat. Another thing to consider, many ECU's will not throw a code for post-cat' 02 sensors for several days. Plenty of time to get it inspected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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