12 inch Wilwood brake- hats and caliper mounts now ready

[Bob_H]

Ok, this is a longer post, but has what I feel is some good feedback from an aftermarket brake kit maker. There are two posts from the same guy, Todd TCE. In the first, he shows how a thicker bracket can be better and why. In the second, he shows how a kit he has sold many of uses 1/4 in and why it is ok. Good reading. Again, this thread can be found here:

http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=118464#post118464

And here is the first post,(second will be in the next message):

 

I'll add from my experience.

 

The use of the 1/4" brackets may or may not be up to the task. When brake torque is applied the bracket will tend to twist at some point. But, that point may be well under the load which is being asked to generate i.e. normal street dirving would likley be just fine, but extremet track use may exert more load than intended.

 

Having built (and still using some) kits with 1/4 plate (laser cut- CNC is too expensive!) the key is the location of the holes and how it is placed to the caliper. When bolting the braket to the spindle if the holes are in a line with those of both the spindle as well as the caliper the twist is greatly redued or nonexistant. But if the caliper is fittied with an offset pattern whereas the bracket has a significant arc the thicker the plate the better.

 

How do I know? I did the original Eclipse kits with 1/4 and have since gone to thicker 3/8. Both proved ok for street use, but the thicker bracket was the ticket for harder use. Some of the current kits still use the 1/4 bracket including the Impala and Contour. Both of these are built in such a manner as the holes are in line with one another.

 

The thicker the bracket the better is hard to argue against. Some times fit isssues dictiate otherwise however. I now choose to go 3/8 when I can unless the design doesn't need it IMHO, or fitting the thicker part is just not possible.

 

As for pad taper, I'd say some of the wear may be from the brackets, but most taper on fixed calipers is simply from heat. The outer dia of the rotor runs sig hotter then the minor and thus burns through pad material faster. I've personally seen Wilwood pad test data (yes, Raybestos) and this is common on many brands of calipers.

 

Just my .02

[Bob_H]

And here was his second post. Before I put it, realize there was some spirited discussion in this thread, and as such is the nature of corner-carvers.com. If someone can't back up what they say, they usually get slammed. That is part of the reason I am so unwilling to accept blanket statements that "something is ok" with no real data or proof to back it up. Eventually some people came back with some personal experience or data, but didn't provide it first time around. Just food for thought that might keep these discussions from going so long for no good reason.

Here is the second post:

 

All this makes for some interesting thinking and for the computer jockies and slide rule junkies just one more thing to sink your teeth into.

 

I freely admit to not having the gifted engineering background of some here, but I'll rely on 18 years of racing work to point me in the right direction. And I'm open to mistakes, so feel free to point them out.

 

The first brake kits I produced ten years ago now were based on my four years with Bondurant as the shop manager and when I left I was repeatedly asked to 'build me some of those SHO brakes!' so I did. Now to ease the minds of the nay sayers, I'd like to point out that I did not design this mod but rather refine it. The original kits on them had aluminum 1/4" caliper brackets (gads!) and we soon updated them to steel. As was the case with the Mustang kits at the time too. Now who did this SHO kit and had the stupidity to do so? That would be Roush Racing in Lavonia MI. Hmm, seems they've designed and built a couple of cars like this before and I'd say they have a feel for what works and what doesn't. In fact the alum brackets were not so much the problem with the kits but the constant sawing on them by fitting and removing the bolt as well as the rotor warpage problems at times ( an entrely different thread!) we opted for steel brackets.

 

For years now I've produced dozens, no hundreds, of kits with 1/4 brackets that are just fine. Now I'm not foolish enough to suggest that thicker can't be any better nor that you shouldn't consider it. But it's not at the front of my mind when working on new ones.

What is you ask? Well, in additon to the bracket thickness, I take into account the bolt mount offset, the weight of the car (did you know that may radial calipers mount on only two 3/8 studs? E-gads!) and I also look at the platform overlap of the bracket to the spindle.

 

In addition to all of this, one might also do well to consider the strength of the parts being bolted to the bracket or even the spindle itself! Some cars have ears that are much weaker than the bracket when it comes right down to it. And some caliipers have mounting ears of marginal strength. What's the weakest point for the deflection to begin?

 

I look at all of this and make an educated desision on what works best and how. The Focus kit above has a massive platform to knuckle ratio and I can assure you that the bracket is not his weak point. The larger kits use the thicker bracket as the holes have greater offset. And as I said the lack of spacers makes it an easier fit. The fitting of spacers can only add to the potential for twist as the platform is reduced and the leverage effected by it.

 

Mr Prestons comments here only show his lack of information on such things and having never dealt with them first hand. Dude. The thought of 5/16 material is a great one, but having looked for it, you'll be hard pressed to find it. The statement of simply fitting an alternative hat is so simplistic that I should have thought of it. What do we now do about ball joint clearance, wheel to caliper clearance, not to mention the offsets available? Hmmm, seems custom hats are the only alternative. And like any good business the need for cross over applications can be a plus (like keeping costs down) so there may be comprmises in some areas.

 

Many, many companies such as Coleman and Bicknell sell brackets for caliper mounting that are 1/4 thick and are either weld on or even bolt on. Some of them make ME nervous! Thus as in the case of Roush and others it's unjust to make blanket statements that don't cover all aspects of whys and hows.

 

I'd never say that one should not consider making home made brackets of the thickest material you can, but then if you plan to purchase from someone who sells complete kits at least review the produt and evaluate it fairly. You might even ask if they can do up custom brackets for a kit. In most cases I think you'll find the overall product exceeds the needs of many who purchase it.

 

 

And here is Jack Hidley's response when I posted the final design of the bracket,(this bodes well for you Juan). Remember, he is the one who said 1/4 in would be inadequate and showed the Mustang data that they would bend:

The rear brakes on a Mustang are a pretty extreme example. The bolt circle that the caliper bracket mounts to on the differential housing is small. This leaves a large unsupported span between the base of the bracket and where the caliper attaches. This leads to more potential flex. The caliper is laterally offset from the axle tube also. This exerts even more torque on the bracket. The photos of the Datsun brackets above make it look about 400% less demanding than a Mustang application. But then again increasing the thickness 25% results in a 250% increase in stiffness....hmmm.

 

So no real engineering evaluation, but some good support in the end. I still personally believe the thicker 3/8 inch is a better choice and I'm glad to see you will switch to that when the first set is sold out. As was pointed out in Todd TCE's first post about the eclipse brakes, the 1/4 was fine, but the 3/8 was better in the more demanding environment. Again, for 50-80% of the buyers, the 1/4 will be more than adequate. But for folks like me, it will be a limiting factor.

Juan, thanks for being open minded about this discussion and not getting into the dirt with negatives and such. I think you will do great as a Z company and should be around for a while.

-Bob

[Jeff]

Thanks for posting those Bob. I've been following the Corner Carvers thread with great interest and was glad to see Todd's comments about his real world experiences.

 

My car will likely see several HPDE events per year but I believe the 1/4" bracket will be just fine. Once Juan posted the image of the final bracket you could see there was very little offset involed.

 

Juan, thanks for being open minded about this discussion and not getting into the dirt with negatives and such. I think you will do great as a Z company and should be around for a while.

 

I second that and thank you as well. I look forward to receiving my brackets in the near future.

[johnc]

I hadn't even looked at this thread until I saw the similar one on Corner Carvers. Here's my reply to Bob from that thread:

 

.250" thick steel is WAY more then you need for any caliper on a 2,400 lb 240Z. The Outlaw 4 piston rears on my 240Z use a .125" thick, about 3" square peice of 4130 with small spacers to get the caliper centered over the rotor and I only use two of the backing plate mounting holes. You're dealing mostly with longitudinal forces. Every single aftermarket bracket I've seen designed for the Z is overbuilt.

 

Again, when it comes to brakes people tend to overbuild things like brackets. The rear brake brackets on my car were designed on a computer and modeled by Bill Savage (of T-MAG and NPTI fame). I even had a Brembo brake engineer look at the setup while my car was on the lift at Erik Messley's shop and he liked it (except for the Outlaw calipers).

 

But, having said that, the only thing wrong with over engineering these brackets is weight. If the additional unsprung weight of .250" mild steel brackets is not a concern, then the ones that are the subject of this thread will work fine.

 

BTW... 2024 aluminum brackets would be a MUCH better choice then either of these. That was the suggestion by the Brembo brake engineer.

[Dan Baldwin]

Here's my reply to Bob from that thread:

 

.250" thick steel is WAY more then you need for any caliper on a 2' date='400 lb 240Z. The Outlaw 4 piston rears on my 240Z use a .125" thick, about 3" square peice of 4130 with small spacers to get the caliper centered over the rotor and I only use two of the backing plate mounting holes. You're dealing mostly with longitudinal forces. Every single aftermarket bracket I've seen designed for the Z is overbuilt.

[/quote']

 

I guess you don't remember the spindly aluminum StrictlyZ rear brake brackets, yikes!

 

Without getting too far into it, just knowing the weight of a car isn't enough. And it isn't enough to know the thickness and material of a bracket to know the design is sound. Somebody QUALIFIED has to do an actual analysis to determine the structural integrity of a design. I have designed aluminum brake brackets, and I have designed steel brackets where there wasn't enough space to get adequate strength in aluminum.

 

Reading through this thread, it's interesting to note how sensitive people can be to a little constructive criticism. But designing and selling critical brake hardware is serious fricking business. In my opinion, if a design hasn't been subjected to at least a rudimentary engineering analysis, it doesn't belong on the market. Same for critical suspension and chassis hardware.

 

Again, the question isn't whether or not 1/4" is thick enough, or whether 4130 steel or 2024-T6 (I assume the Brembo guy wasn't referring to T0!) aluminum is the "right" material, it's whether or not the overall design was conducted based on sound engineering principles. I'd rather have a balsa wood bracket proven by sound analysis than chrome-moly steel or aircraft aluminum that wasn't. (ok, maybe I exaggerate...)

 

And it's NOTHING PERSONAL! I wouldn't let someone without an M.D. perform my needed lobotomy, either, no matter how enthusiastic and well-meaning they are.

[Drax240z]

And it's NOTHING PERSONAL! I wouldn't let someone without an M.D. perform my needed lobotomy, either, no matter how enthusiastic and well-meaning they are.

 

you crack me up Dan!

[Bob_H]

Dan, nice one.

John, I'll reitterate. Rear brakes vs front brakes is a poor comparsion. They are doing anywhere from 10-30% of the work, depending on the setup of the Z. As such, they are not required to do nearly the work of the fronts.

But as I recall, you are using Mike's front setup with outlaw calipers and should have a 1/4 inch front bracket. Or did you design your own front bracket as well? I'd love to discuss that and how it works in relation to this bracket but I think the rear bracket is a misleading example.

Dan, how about plugging in the variables into your fancy programs at work? Its not like your really doing any work now anyways! You have the dimensions or can get them from Juan. I'm sure he would welcome the analysis. I for one would love to see if 3/8 makes any difference at all since this clearly has been a "lively" discussion to say the least. That indicates to me that it is an issue many people are concerned about. I'll bribe you - some kinda trade/money for the 15's of mine.

-Bob

[johnc]

The front Outlaw 2800 calipers bolt into to the stock mounting ears for the front discs, no bracket engineering needed.

 

FYI... again, my rear brake brackets were designed on a computer and modeled for stress by Bill Savage, the guy who built most of Nissan's offroad race trucks and designed the uprights, and the suspension and brake mounts for the Nissan (NPTI) IMSA cars of the late 1980s and early 1990s.

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

 

Here I have the brackets complete. Sorry for the small photo I have been playing around with the photo shop and screwed it up. Those who have been waiting for them . its on the way out. Thanks Juan

 

Calipers to be used are

Billet NDL

Billet Superlite4 Billet

Superlite6

Superliet ST

Superlite3

Superlite2a

GN3 3.5" Mount

 

Part # for rotor 32 fin curved is

rh 1602894

lh 1602895

[Synlubes]

The front Outlaw 2800 calipers bolt into to the stock mounting ears for the front discs' date=' no bracket engineering needed.

 

FYI... again, my rear brake brackets were designed on a computer and modeled for stress by Bill Savage, the guy who built most of Nissan's offroad race trucks and designed the uprights, and the suspension and brake mounts for the Nissan (NPTI) IMSA cars of the late 1980s and early 1990s.[/quote']

 

John, would you be so kind and share some info / pics / drawings of your brake setup / parts ?

[Guest z1 performance]

Juan - I have my caliepers and rotors on order, but please PM me your contact number again, as I misplaced it.

 

Aso do you see any issues with the ZX standard master being able to keep up and still yield a nice firm pedal? Any need for me to get an adjustable proportioning valve?

 

Adam

[johnc]

Hi Doug,

 

I don't have any pictures of my brake setup. Maybe one day...

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

http://www.jskinnovations.com/wilwood.htm

I have photos added to the wilwood page. Hope you all like what you see. Everything fits perfect even my not so liked POS bracket that turned out beautifully in the end. Thanks for all going on the roller coaster building journey with me. On to the ZX's

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Its confirmed I will be finally having the 5 lug Wilwood setup along with aluminum 4 and 5 lug hubs!

I will be macking this bracket thicker than .25 for those who are concerned .Thanks Juan

 

The wilwood setup shaves 6 pounds of each corner versus the 300zx setup. The hubs I would estimate to weigh around 3 pounds.

You are shaving about 20 pounds off the front by doing everyday mods and spending not a whole lot.

[Guest twinturbo240z]

whats the status on the wilwood 5 lug setup?

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Hi Well its getting there. It looks like I will be doing the hubs as well in 5 lug. Please check under "who wants aluminum hubs" in the brake topic forum thanks Juan

[Trevor]

I just went back a re-read this thread.

Several mentions say the bracket "will be better than mild steel" since all numbers and cals were based on the tensile strength of mild steel. Just curious, what did you finally use for the brackets, Juan?