Owen Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Hi everyone, I've gone thru like 3 starters on my V8Z. One was fried, one was simply replaced, and the current one seems to have seized. The current starter is a Powermaster 9600 or 9004, I can't remember off the top of my head. But it's supposed to be "not affected by heatsoak" or so they say. Anyway, I stalled the car at a light and couldn't get it to crank back up. Battery has 12V. My friend put on jumper cables and I saw them start to smoke. 2 hours later, having been towed home, it still won't crank. The starter makes a sound like it is physically blocked or jammed. The battery is an Optima red top, tested ok at the local auto parts store. Alternator is charging at 14V during idle. So why do my starters die? All my starters were wrapped with heatshielding. Currently the exhaust pipe running underneath it has about 3 inches gap between it and the starter. The pipe is also wrapped in header wrap. How hot does everyones' exhausts get? The other day, I started the car in the driveway and backed it into the garage. I needed to do something in the engine bay and burned my damn hand against the header. I took out my infrared thermometer and within 20 seconds, the headers were 500 degrees or higher. They are block huggers ceramic coated, water temps are stable at 180deg. Compression is 9.0-9.5 to 1, mild cam, etc. From what I know, my O2 sensor needs like 600 degrees so maybe this is ok. Do I have the damn thing wired wrong? I have a Ford Remote Solenoid, +12V from batt in on left, solenoid activation wire, and the +12V out to the starter. Like this http://www.chevyasylum.com/63chevy2/63chevy2_572w.jpg Here's an alternative way I just found. http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm There are 2 positive terminals on the starter, one for the heavy gauge and one small one for the signal coming from the starter. I have a loop going from the heavy terminal to the smaller one, per instructions that came with my remote solenoid. Is this done right? So I'm trying to figure out what else in my setup could be causing me to eat starters. I can't check the alignment of the starter to the flywheel because there's just no room with the T56 bellhousing. I need a fiberoptic scope.... Removed the starter last nite and gave it some power. The pinion pops out but does not spin. Thanks, Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1619&prmenbr=361 It cost about what three starters cost but it will be the last one you buy. I have had similar issues with cheap rebuilt units. This so far has solved my problems. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 You may just have a bad starter. Get rid of the external solenoid. Get a gear reduction starter next time. Take the starter to the parts store and have them test it for you, just to be sure. 500* for the headers is actually quite low. I remember when Rick Johnson used the IR thermometer at my place one BBQ day and compared with Dave Booth's uncoated headers, there was about a 300* difference. Can't remember the exact numbers, but Rick's was something like 400* and Dave's was about 700* or so. How did you check the starter to test? Tim BTW...I have a spare, if you want to drop it in just to get going in the mean time. Was from my truck. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I bought a high torque gear reduction starter from Jeg's (it's called a CVR starter ). It has an adjustable mount, 4.44:1 gear ratio. Part number 171-5323 for all chevys for $146.99 I've never had a problem with starting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted September 30, 2003 Author Share Posted September 30, 2003 My starter is a Powermaster #9600. 180 lbs-ft, 4.44:1 gear reduction. I have another starter at home which I was using before this. Something else has to be causing this than just bad starters. I tested it by pulling the starter out and hitting the start button (recorded what was going on with my video camera while I was hitting the button). As I said, the pinion gear pops out but does not spin. The solenoid is most likely seized and is causing a short circuit. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 If the gear pops out, the solenoid is working, but it sounds like the starter itself is not spinning. Bad bearings?, bad windings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAFantaZ Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 I used to have problems with Pep Boys and Autozone(Even Chief Autoparts in an emergency) alternators and starters all the time. I finally bought the JTR Datsun V-8 Conversion Manual, the 7th Edition. Based on page 3-4, starter #3 for the 168-tooth flywheel, I went to the local Chevy dealer's parts store and bought a reduction gear starter from a 1996 GM truck with a 454 big block. It was a nice starter, and worked every time. It only weighs 8 pounds! I had Hooker full-length headers, non-coated, and no heat wrap for the scarab kit. I also bought an aftermarket alternator, but I don't recall much difference in charging. I need good charging in lower RPM's and city driving, but I don't think this one kicked in until 2000rpm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Here's an alternative way I just found. http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm There are 2 positive terminals on the starter' date=' one for the heavy gauge and one small one for the signal coming from the starter. I have a loop going from the heavy terminal to the smaller one, per instructions that came with my remote solenoid. Is this done right? [/quote'] I'm not sure if that is right. Did you try the way the above "oldengine" site has it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAFantaZ Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 BTW, I found the part # for that starter I mentioned in my previous post on GMPartsDirect.com: #10465054 GM PART # 10465054 CATEGORY: Starter Motor PACK QTY: 1 CORE CHARGE: $70.00 GM LIST: $325.15 OUR PRICE: $162.58 DESCRIPTION: STRTR REM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Ditto what Mike said! I too run the CVR starter and love it. I also have coated long tube headers, they help with cooling. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted September 30, 2003 Author Share Posted September 30, 2003 Here's an alternative way I just found. http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm There are 2 positive terminals on the starter' date=' one for the heavy gauge and one small one for the signal coming from the starter. I have a loop going from the heavy terminal to the smaller one, per instructions that came with my remote solenoid. Is this done right? [/quote'] I'm not sure if that is right. Did you try the way the above "oldengine" site has it? I found out that the way I have it is OK as well. But still, I now know that the starter itself is no good. So I have to send it in. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicker240 Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 another possibility might be ground problems.Make sure you have a good ground from the engine block to the battery as well as from the battery to the chassis somewhere.Zero corrosion anywhere in the cables and extra clean and tight connections.Although the starter pulls a lot of amps ,it should not smoke the cables until it has spun for quite a while if ever.measure current draw on the starter.not sure exactly what it shoud read,but probably not more than 200 to 250 amps unless your compression is crazy high.Gear reduction is the best way to go in any case if you are buying a new starter anyway.Good luck with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted September 30, 2003 Share Posted September 30, 2003 Not sure why you keep burning up starters, but have a few suggestions All my starters were wrapped with heatshielding. Currently the exhaust pipe running underneath it has about 3 inches gap between it and the starter. The pipe is also wrapped in header wrap. Heat sheilding is good' date=' but I would think wrapping the starter itself will only keep heat in. I would keep the header wrap but unwrap the starter itself. Maybe put in a metal heat sheild between the headers and the starter. Do I have the damn thing wired wrong? I have a Ford Remote Solenoid, +12V from batt in on left, solenoid activation wire, and the +12V out to the starter. Like this http://www.chevyasylum.com/63chevy2/63chevy2_572w.jpg Here's an alternative way I just found. http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm There are 2 positive terminals on the starter, one for the heavy gauge and one small one for the signal coming from the starter. I have a loop going from the heavy terminal to the smaller one, per instructions that came with my remote solenoid. Is this done right? Yeah, what you did sounds good. This should not be the source of your problems. There are multiple ways to wire the remote solenoid. I like this guy's way best http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Cadillac_Performance_Association/message/378 Like the link above says, the big advantage of a remote solenoid is it allows you to bypass the ignition switch with all it's small gage wiring (including a fuse) to essentially wire the solenoid power directly to the battery. If you do it like the link above (and NOT like the links you posted), then you have the added advantage of bypassing the contacts in the GM solenoid altogether. Removed the starter last nite and gave it some power. The pinion pops out but does not spin. This could be a fried starter (bad brushes, shorted/opened wiring in the starter, or froze bearings) OR is could be the GM solenoid is bad. When the GM solenoid is energized, it slides a piston forward that engages the starter pinion, but it also pushes a copper disk interconnecting the lugs on the back of the solenoid. This sends battery power from the BAT terminal to the starter lug. Over time this disk can become pitted from all the arcing and stop conducting. Try hooking a jumper cable up to the starter lug directly. If the motor runs then your GM solenoid needs to be taken apart and clean up with a file. If it still doesn't run with a jumper cable connected directly to the starter lug, then time for a new starter. BTW, if the motor is frozen or shorted out, then it could easily smoke your jumper cables. Maybe a high quality, gear reduction starter would be the ticket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted October 1, 2003 Author Share Posted October 1, 2003 Thanks everyone for your replies, this IS a high quality gear reduction starter!!!! Anyway, like I said above, I took it out of the car and gave it power, (jumper cables) moves out but doesn't spin. I'm gonna send it back and hope they replace it for free. Still, it's just a bandaid solution. How's this, I'll get one of those spray setups like in front of the intercoolers and spray NOS on the starter, all the while monitoring it with a temperature gauge?!?!?! Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Wouldn't it be easier just to put a sheet of stainless between the exhaust and the starter? Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumo Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Owen, Instead of wrapping the starter with a heat shield try using just a plain old heat shield. Basically a piece of metal in between the heat source and the starter. I went through a similar thing with my Trans Am then i just put the factory heat shield plate back and it stopped doing it. Another thing is make sure the starter is shimmed correctly. I hope it helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 some times chevy starters have to be shimmed because the gear and the flywheel are engageing too tight.look at the wear patterns on the flywheel teeth.also if you have a trunk mounted battery i always run a ground from the battery to a starter bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 Randy has two good points - you may need to shim the starter - the starter usually comes with directions for this, especially if its aftermarket. The shims are available at most parts stores in the red "HELP!" aisle. Also, Randy's point of a good ground cable is excellent. I am using a Taylor 2 gage positive cable and 2 gage welding cable from the (-) post of my battery to the trans/engine bolt near the starter, along with a big ground strap to the body. This is for a relocated battery, just behind the passenger seat up on the package shelf. I know some think 2 gage is not enough. But with the tiny Dodge Omni/ Plymouth Horizon size battery relocated to behind the passenger seat, a gera reduction starter, and thermal coating on my headers and exhaust, I've never had a starting problem. BTW, those "pedestrian" cheaper Radiation Thermometers (temperature guns) use the Stefan-Boltzman law to back calculate surface temperature W = "alpha" * T*T*T*T (T to the 4th power) W = Radiant Heat flow from the surface over the focused area of the gun "alpha" = emissivity of the surface T= actual surface temperature. The problem is the cheaper guns use a single wavelength focal plane, and must assume an emissivity. They are usually set internally to an emissivity of about 0.90, which is close for many painted and bare metal surfaces. Here are some emissivitys of different materials and coatings: http://www.electro-optical.com/bb_rad/emissivity/matlemisivty.htm The ceramic/metallic coatings like Jet-Hot, etc. have an emissivity of about 0.10 to 0.20. What that means is that they put off 10 to 20% of the radiant heat that an uncoated header would. And their "apparent" temperature when tested with these cheaper RT guns is much lower than the actual surface temperature, because of the gun's manufacturer made the cheaper model guns with an "ASSUMED" hard-coded emissivity of around 0.90. So don't be fooled. However, that low temperature reading does mean something - that the radiant heat off of those headers is now just a fraction of what it would be if the headers were bare, rusted, or painted steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Perry Posted October 1, 2003 Share Posted October 1, 2003 I have rear mounted batttery and cheap gear reduction starter and no problems on my 10:1 350 chevy. I had trouble with no starts at first due to bad grounds until I put in a very good chassis ground on both engine and battery side. Try removing starter from car entirely and connect jumper cable to the heavy guage wire that runs from GM solenoid into starter case. it shoud spin like hell. If it doesn't and they won't take it back.. open up the motor case and check out the brushes. they can often be repaired. I agree lose the heat wrap around the starter but keep the exhaust wrapped and maybe put a piece of sheetmetal in there between exhaust and starter, also check shims. On a similar note, has anyone else noticed that most chevy gear reduction starters are actually 280ZX starters with a chunck of aluminum bolted to them? next one I need I think I'll get a rebuilt zx starter from the parts store ($80) with a warranty and just bolt the new nose off my current starter on it. Perry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted October 1, 2003 Author Share Posted October 1, 2003 Good suggestions from everyone! "Try removing starter from car entirely and connect jumper cable to the heavy guage wire that runs from GM solenoid into starter case. it shoud spin like " Did this and it doesn't spin, just moves out. The ground cable from the starter to the block is something I'll have to do. And yes, Pete I read about the emissivity on the gun I have. Very interesting to say the least. Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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