Californians, who's voting for Arnold

[strotter]

Boys boys boys. High taxes do not equal "socialism", "communism", or any other "ism". In general, taxes are high because we demand a great deal from our governments (local, state, and federal). People complain about "affordable health care", but *somebody* has to pay. They want to "put the criminals away", but they don't want to build (very expensive) prisons. They want good roads, but they don't want high vehicle or fuel taxes. They want safe streets, but they don't want to pay a decent wage for cops. They want a good education for their kids, but they don't want higher property taxes. They want a politician that actually knows his job, but they don't want a political animal. They want everything to be OK, but they don't want to go to the trouble of voting. They want complex, difficult problems solved, but they don't want to do the research to understand them or make the hard choices. They want to pay less taxes, OK; what will they give up? Roads, cops, schools, safety, what? Meals on Wheels for that old lady next door? Code inspectors to make sure your house won't fall down on you? Air traffic controllers? Lawyers to defend the innocent and prosecute criminals? Chemist who make sure their water doesn't have poison in it? Accountants to make sure some giant corporation is ripping people off? What? The guy who fixes the stoplight, the woman who looks for dirty conditions in restaurants, the man who investigates the kid who always has bruises? What about the men and women who take up arms to defend the country? Who's going to do it if government doesn't? When was the last time somebody at the ballot box said to themselves "This is a great law, but how will it be paid for? What service will this cut?"

 

So, *What should we cut*? There are books to balance, the money doesn't grow on trees. And remember this: the other guy is no more likely to give up *anything* to make your life easier than you are to make his easier.

[JMortensen]

Strotter-

 

I'm moving back to CA, so I thought I'd take on your argument, which is a good one IMO. If people want the government to spend, someone has to provide the money to be spent (my best paraphrase).

 

The problems as I see it are: 1. A government and a populus that sees government's responsibility wrongly and 2. The horrendously bad spending on the part of the government.

 

1. The government IMO shouldn't have 1/2 the programs they have in place. Sure people like government programs in place to feed kids lunch at school, and to provide cheap medical care for people who can't aford it, and to feed the elderly lady down the street. But the government shouldn't be doing those things. Those are charity responsibilities, and maybe if we weren't all taxed to death (it's almost as bad here in WA) people would have money to give to charities that performed some or all of these functions.

 

2. I can't tell you how many times I saw 15 Cal Trans workers standing around 1 guy with a shovel carefully placing asphalt into a pothole. Socialism and Communism exist for the "betterment" of the masses, and 1 way of achieving that is to hire as many people as possible to do a given job. 1 example: When my dad was a kid in the depression (and living under Roosevelt's later overturned communistic style laws), he was 1 of 15 children in rural Utah. They lived in a 1 room cabin that was about 400 sq ft. Their only possession to speak of was a cow. The government came and took their cow. The government then hired 5 people to tend the cow. 1 to feed the cow. 1 to milk the cow. 1 to shovel cow poop. 1 to wash the cow. 1 to take it to the pasture and back. Then they SOLD the milk to my dad's family. Those 15 CalTrans workers are hired under the same philosophy. Its great for reducing the number of unemployed, but not the best for getting work done efficiently.

 

I don't know how many of you have had government jobs, but I've been in a few at the end of the fiscal year. What happens??? Let's SPEND THE WHOLE BUDGET! New staplers for everyone, get new computers and office chairs, new motivational posters on the walls. SPEND SPEND SPEND so we can get a bigger budget next year!

 

I think we need to change the way budgets are set so that there is not this insane drive to spend it all. This spending happens at every step along the way, and there are so many more steps when the government is taking on projects that it shouldn't.

 

I need to shut up now, this is getting kinda like the religious argument that Aux and the others started. I love talking politics and religion. If anyone has a response to this that is too out of hand for the list, PM or email me.

 

Jon

[Guest bastaad525]

Here's the non political, mostly uninformed view

 

I dont really keep up with much that happens in politics except for the parts that directly affect me... it really doesn't interest me... if anything the more I learn the more po'ed I get.

 

I'm definateliy going to vote for arnold... I can't vouch for Davis being a total screwup though I know that most people seem to have plenty of reason to think that. What pisses me offa bout davis is the laws he's put into effect and decisions he's made lately, and his reasons behind them... even me not really knowing much about everything going on, it seems Davis is more concerned with himself, not me or anyone else here in CA. And it seems if Bustamante won he'd just pick up where davis left off. I would have leaned towards mclintock but he's far enough behind already and the fact that he's taking the indian money bothers me also. The more I learn about THAT whole situation the more it really upsets me... I agree that Arnold not having any political experience seems more of a benefit than a drawback to me, and though I've always considered myself a democrat I will definately be throwing my vote his way. The anti gun thing doesn't bother me, call me a puss but I hate guns, what anyone could see as 'cool' about an object who's sole purpose is to take life, is beyond me... though I have no problem with people who go to firing ranges and what not to shoot for sport and fun... you still have to question the bottom line there... why the need to be good at shooting? Otherwise... everything Arnie is standing on sounds good to me and I really feel he will benefit this state greatly... I just hope he starts by repealing the stupid 300% car tax increase and no offense to anyone but he really needs to repeal the law that lets illegals get a drivers license....

[Tim240z]

Jon,

AHMEN!!!!

 

Exactly why I believe that we need a business man in Sacramento, not another politician!! Is Arnold the right guy for the job......probably not, but like I said previously, he is, by far, the lesser of all evils!!

 

Tim

[Guest Nic-Rebel450CA]

...and no offense to anyone but he really needs to repeal the law that lets illegals get a drivers license....

 

AGREED! I cant believe the nonsense I heard last night. Bustamante was saying that they should be able to get a drivers license because "anyone who works hard, and pays their taxes should have a right to have a drivers license so they can get to work, and take their kids to school or the doctor"

 

Hello! What tax do they pay? Sales tax? Surely not income tax, they dont have a SSN! And WHAT! There's nothing wrong with us paying taxes to put their kids through school and give them medical coverage?? OMG, what kind of twisted logic is that?!

 

BTW, as a note on that, it has been stated for YEARS that a drivers license is a privelege, not a right. If a drivers license ever becomes a right in California I am going to be the first one to move to safer grounds!

 

And I agree, Amen to JON! I just about died laughing the other day when I saw four road-workers operating a TAPE MEASURE!

[Dave240Z]

I agree with what "strotter" states in principle, tax isn't necessarily a bad thing but I do see a few misconceptions at least when viewed from how I understand things.

 

I agree that high taxes do not necessarily equate to socialism or any other form of government but if the money collected from those high taxes is misappropriated and spent in a foolish manner then there is a problem hence the reason CA has gone from a record surplus to a record deficit in record time. I can assure you that as a homeowner in CA, I pay quite a bit in taxes each year. Just sit and think about how much tax we pay each year, it's frightening when you consider what you get in return. For example, I pay income tax, property tax, sales tax, gasoline tax, not to mention fees such as vehicle registration (which has quadrupled). Given all this money, you'd think I'd get to see a lot of improvements from such an investment...couldn't be more wrong.

 

The problem, as I see it is quite complicated but can be traced to a few key areas.

 

1) REVENUE MISAPPROPRIATION - CA collects plenty of taxes, but virtually none of those taxes are actually spent where they should be. For example, you'd think that my property tax would go directly to the schools in my neighborhood to provide an education for my children living there or to maintain the pavement around my neighborhood. WRONG. This tax is collected by the state and slumped in with 95% of all other taxes into the big black hole we call the "general fund". So, in essence the $6K (yes $6,000) I spend each year in property tax doesn't go towards ANY property, neighborhood or school in my zip code, nor my county. How is that fair? Gasoline tax is another crock, because with amount of revenue generated by gasoline tax alone, we should be able to pay for resurfacing CA roads nearly every year. However, once again this goes into the "general fund" where it is quickly and efficiently spent on something entirely else. As it stands today, CA has the worst roads IN THE NATION even though millions upon millions are collected in gas tax each year. I won't go any further with this, as it should be obvious that although we pay taxes for things such as property, gas, etc...almost none of that revenue is actually spent on what it was generated from.

 

2) INEFFICIENCY - A recent statistic I came across stated that CA spends the equivalent of $12K/yr on each child in the education system. Yet, with this much money available, we can't even keep the schools painted, let alone put a decent book in a childs hand. On the other hand, a private school with a yearly tuition of $5K/yr can offer a child an EXCELLENT education. This indicates to me that more money isn't the solution, but rather how it's spent. If anything, we shouldn't have to spend $12K/yr on a child to get an education when there are plenty of private schools offering superior educations for less than 1/2 the cost. Case-in-Point: A co-worker of mine has a 11yr old boy who was attending a public school. He was quickly put into a private school once his parents realized, among other things that his History textbook was last printed in 1963. That's 40yrs old folks!!! They're now paying $5K/yr in tuition and he actually has current books AND good teachers with a clean school. Imagine that!

 

3) TOO MANY PROGRAMS - Sure, the governement should provide some sort of programs for the citizens but too many programs just create a wasteful and inefficient beaucracy such as we have today in CA. For example, CA has (5) energy agencies. Each one has a "CEO" that makes the equivalent of $200K/yr. Sure, I won't argue that CA needs AN energy agency, but (5)?!? What about CALTRANS work? I'm sure we all know quite well how efficient these guys can be. It's quite obvious when there are (5) people standing and (1) doing something. Let alone how private buildings can get built rather quickly, yet for State employees to do the same work it takes 5 or even 10X as long and costs 10X as much. My opinion is that much of this needs to be privatized. Nobody will really lose their job as the private companies will need the workers, but with competition in place, these companies will have to be competitive and with incentives for finishing early you can be stuff would get done much quicker and with far less waste.

 

4) POOR LEADERSHIP - The leaders of this great state have become too chummy with outside businesses and too concerned with pleasing everyone so they can keep getting elected. We need people who want to lead this state for the people, not their own interests. We also need leaders who are willing to take responsibility for both their actions and their mistakes both of which Davis has proven time and time again that he is incapable of.

 

In the end, I believe I will be voting for Arnold as will my wife. My reasoning is simple:

 

1) He's an immigrant - This means that the Governor's office is as high as he can go politically, unlike others who always have their eyes and minds on the step above theirs.

 

2) He's successful - He has enough money stashed away that he doesn't even need to work another day to live well. Therefore, no compensation or outside influence is really going to be able to sway him.

 

3) He's inexperienced - Some people consider this a negative thing, I think it's good and here's why. Since he's inexperienced, he has to surround himself with a group of people to advise him as to what is the right action to take. Being inexperienced, my hope is that he will try to educate himself and ask a lot of questions which may help root out some of these "snowballers" who try and manipulate things for thier own gain.

 

OK, enough for now...I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

Cheers,

Dave

[Heavy Z]

Hello! What tax do they pay?

 

The same could be said for the multitude of companies that moved nothing more than their address offshore last year, denying the U.S. of $70 billion in tax revenues.

 

Regardless of where you are on immigration, I feel we are missing the boat here. Poverty in Mexico (as with anywhere) causes some people to take risks to find work here. They are not to blame. Who IS to blame are the AMERICANS who employ them. If we were a people of principles, California businesses would refuse to hire illegals. Do they do that? No. In fact, illegal immigration is often encouraged by growers because they work hard and can PAY THEM UNDER THE TABLE (now who's adding to our tax problems?). This allows growers, contractors, and businessmen to pay less for labor, be more competitive, and with the money they save they can buy that 2nd home in Aspen, CO. I've heard their arguments many times, they don't hire Americans because they don't work as hard. Who is winning big from illegal immigration? Not the illegals who come over and work for dirt wages, but ultimately the people who employ them are the real winners here. And we, in turn, have to pay for support services like medical coverage, border security, etc because illegals know that Americans will hire them to save a buck. I reiterate, WE pay this as taxpayers, those who pay illegals under the table are in no way contributing their fair share.

 

Be careful what you wish for folks, if all the illegals left now we'd be in big trouble. Just for the sake of speculation, if we mobilized the military and kicked all the illegals out of California, do you know what would happen? The prduce in our stores would dry up, restaurants would have to close, construction projects would come to a halt, lawns around the state would go untended, and a statewide depresion would probably ensue. We would be wide-eyed and in the streets asking "what happened?" I don't think some of you relize how integrated into the economy that illegal immigration really is. They don't come and take our doctoring jobs and lawyering jobs, but in many ways keep California afloat doing jobs that most people won't do and at a price that businesses can't help but love. The only way to stop immigration is to cut it off at the source - and no, I don't mean the border. If there were no jobs for them, they wouldn't bother coming. So I ask, who's to blame for that?

[Tim240z]

As a foreign national myself, I'll chime in a bit here.

I had to work very, very, very hard to get me legal status in this country. It is very difficult, and more so now with 9-11 issues. While i do not disagree with you on the use of cheap labour, and the need for it, I do disagree that non-documented aliens should be given the same access to benefits and service as the rest of us. I mean really, they come in, get jobs (ok not as high paying as educated people, but more than they would get back 'home'), and are, by in large, 'allowed' to stay and work (obviously not officially), and then they complain because the government (whether Fed, State, or Local) isn't giving them the same resources as legal residents. That is insane. Doesn't everyone see the irony and downright ludicracy in that.....

 

I was here illegally for a short time. I ended up leaving and going back home for a few years to regroup, and resubmit paperwork. There was no way I was going to start bitching because i didn't have health insurance etc...

 

Tim

[JMortensen]

Let's not forget that those farms employing illegal workers are probably also collecting subsidies...

 

Jon

[Heavy Z]

Good points, guys. I in no way disagree. The system is silly at this point. If you're a poor American, you'll be denied health care. The way around this is to go to Mexico, become a citizen, and then sneak back over the border to get all the healthcare you need free, thanks to us.

 

Our medical system if laughable right now, just look north to Canada. They ensure everyone and yet somehow we still manage to pay TWICE what Canada pays per capita for health care. I know their system is flawed, but if Canada had twice the cash per patient those problems would go away very quickly. There is too much profit built into our system, mostly administrative costs that are grossly out of proportion. How else is it that we, the richest country in the world, is the only developed country without universal health care and is dead last in infant mortality among the top 20 countries?

[Heavy Z]

Oh yeah, despite the state of things I want to point out that this country is still a wonderful place to live, and is why I want to see us better off and not a 'remember when' society. There surely is so much good that we sometimes overlook and should be proud of.

[innerware]

Vote McClintock, he is the only one that makes any sense.

[Tim240z]

Vote McClintock, he is the only one that makes any sense.

 

If you want a 'Special Interest Group' puppet.....

Tim

[Moridin]

Jon' date='

AHMEN!!!!

 

Exactly why I believe that we need a business man in Sacramento, not another politician!! Is Arnold the right guy for the job......probably not, but like I said previously, he is, by far, the lesser of all evils!!

 

Tim[/quote']

 

One of my professors once said, "it isn't the lesser of two evils (bipartisan politics), but the evil of two lessers."

[Moridin]

...and no offense to anyone but he really needs to repeal the law that lets illegals get a drivers license....

 

AGREED! I cant believe the nonsense I heard last night. Bustamante was saying that they should be able to get a drivers license because "anyone who works hard' date=' and pays their taxes should have a right to have a drivers license so they can get to work, and take their kids to school or the doctor"

 

Hello! What tax do they pay? Sales tax? Surely not income tax, they dont have a SSN! And WHAT! There's nothing wrong with us paying taxes to put their kids through school and give them medical coverage?? OMG, what kind of twisted logic is that?!

 

BTW, as a note on that, it has been stated for YEARS that a drivers license is a privelege, not a right. If a drivers license ever becomes a right in California I am going to be the first one to move to safer grounds!

 

And I agree, Amen to JON! I just about died laughing the other day when I saw four road-workers operating a TAPE MEASURE![/quote']

 

I don't think the issue is with the hard working illegal, but more with the safety of others, because these people are going to drive regardless.

 

Actually, I heard a laywer argue it may be a right to drive. You have freedoms in this country and one is to transport yourself from place to place. Have a drivers license only pays for municipalities. To be honest, our license program is a joke anyways. Just look at how many poor drivers are out there. Anyway, just an interesting way to look at things (Really just arguing that one for the sake of arguing.)

 

I do agree with the Caltrans crap. My friends and I always joke about that when were working on our cars, because its always one person doing the work while the rest sit around and watch.

[Moridin]

Vote McClintock' date=' he is the only one that makes any sense.[/quote']

 

If you want a 'Special Interest Group' puppet.....

Tim

 

He has a perfect record. He keeps his word.

 

I still like Camejo. He's really the only one with a detailed plan to fix the budget. Here's the link: http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/recall/story/7315647p-8260062c.html

 

 

Hopefully everyone votes though. I'm fed up with the turn-out. Its just stupid that so few people vote. The apathy is pathetic. Then they all do is complain.

 

Anywho, we also need a movement for Instant Runoff voting. It's really a neat system that allows you to rate the candidates in a number system. If the number 1 guy has no possibility of winning, then your vote goes to next the person, and so on, until it counts. You could vote for a third party candidate without having to worry about a Republican beating a Democrat, or vice versa, because you didn't vote for one.

[zguy95135]

if i could vote i'd vote against the recall. you know that the republicans want to get one of their own into office. i know that our surplus of money is gone but he had to either pay for power over the summer. if he didnt pay for it we would have had LOTS of rolling blackouts, and if he did pay for the power then we would be spending tons of money beacuse the ppower companies screwed us. either way people would be pissed.

 

besides if you recall him then everytime someone is unhappy about the govenor they are gonna recall him. anyways his term is almost over, just let him finish his term

[johnc]

Just to check, I drove by two polling places near my home around 8:30am this morning. At one, the line outside was about 75 people and the other had the line stretching for about 150 yards! I've NEVER seen lines like that in the 15 years I've lived in this area. Looks like the turnout will be BIG. FYI... I voted a couple weeks ago.

[Mike kZ]

[Moridin]

Maybe we'll get more than 50% of the people out there to vote. I hope most aren't just going for Arnold, because he was a movie star, but as sad as that is, most will.