Guest bastaad525 Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Ron, a friend of mine who has been helping me out immensely (sp?) with my turbo'ed 240 just recommended this one to me when we were talking about leaving the breathers vented or 'hooking them up right'. He says it's worth a good 20hp... I didn't know this was a hot topic at all... actually when he told me about it I thought he was crazy and laughed at him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Actually, I originally heard it from the guy Dave who bought Premier Products from Gail. If you don't remember Premier Products they specialized in Z's, they were in Chatsworth or Canoga Park whatever it is considered right there on Deering Ave, but this was 6 or 7 years ago. Maybe Dave's still there. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 Whoa Jon you must live very close to me! I'm in Northridge off of Roscoe and Reseda... whereabouts are you? Dude it would be awesome to meet up with another Z person who lived close by. I know Dave... and I remember his shop there on Deering, I thought they were called IPS (I believe it stood for Import Performance Specialists) he was a cool guy, when I met him he was more into doing turbo'ed, 1st gen RX-7's though.. helped me out with some stuff, quite a few times at no charge... guess that's why he's not in business anymore! As far as I know they closed shop up a couple years ago. There's a few other performance shops on that same block, also the place I buy my R/C Helicopter stuff from is right there. Funny you heard about this 'trick' from him, the friend I'm talking about who told me, is Dave's ex-business partner Paul Paul was the guy who got me started on this whole needing-my-Z-to-be-fast thing. Paul has also helped me out with a TON of stuff... friggin guy is my saviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 I grew up in Agoura, Bastaad. Graduated from Agoura High in '92. Moved to San Luis Obispo about 7 years ago, then moved to WA state about a year and a half ago. Premier Products was owned by this lady named Gail. They had EVERYTHING back then. Dave bought the shop with Paul, then got into RX7's, and changed the shop to IPS. I guess it went under after that. One of my friends Tanya used to date Dave. Small world! Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron240zxt Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 That is exactly who i was talking about, I knew Dave, Austin, Paul From Both locations IPS/Premier, That was the shop i was originally talking about, Dave Did have that setup on one of his customers cars that lived in Simi Valley, Im just sceptical on the 20hp gain. Even thought the car moved really good. I used to hang out at the shop like two to three times a week before they closed down (IPS) Unfortuanally I stopped contact due to getting burned on some pistons but thats a old news not needed to bring up. Its in the past. Other then business, personally they were extremly cool individuals. You know what I may have the drawings still to date in a box when we were discussing this, should be interesting to find again. Later Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron240zxt Posted November 5, 2003 Share Posted November 5, 2003 That is exactly who i was talking about, I knew Dave, Austin, Paul From Both locations IPS/Premier, That was the shop i was originally talking about, Dave Did have that setup on one of his customers cars that lived in Simi Valley, Im just sceptical on the 20hp gain. Even thought the car moved really good. I used to hang out at the shop like two to three times a week before they closed down (IPS) Unfortuanally I stopped contact due to getting burned on some pistons but thats a old news not needed to bring up. Its in the past. Other then business, personally they were extremly cool individuals. You know what I may have the drawings still to date in a box when we were discussing this, should be interesting to find again. Later Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 So did anyone ever try this? If so how is your rear main seal and did you notice a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-TARD Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 You should definitely be able to pull a vacuum off of the exhaust. It would be almost identical to the way a sand blaster works, high pressure gas forced over the top of a small diameter tube will create a suction, more velocity= higher suction. Strangely enough, this is also how the sewage system on a Spruance class destroyer works, 100 psi salt water is forced through a pipe fitting called an eductor, which is internally shaped to maximize the amount of vacuum created by the fluid forced through it. The eductor pulls vacuum from the top of the sewage tank, so that the tank is always under about 16 to 20 inches of vacuum, it'll suck a turd through several hundred feet of piping in about 3 seconds flat. So yeah, something similar to this should definitely be able to reduce internal crank case pressure It would be nice to hear from someone that has actually done this though, to see if there was any gain in Hp. Anyone? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Never seen or heard of it on a Z really, but I know I saw an article in a muscle car mag, but this one they actually used a dedicated, belt driven vacuum pump, and the motor was a pretty high hp motor, maybe 500hp if I remember right, and did gain ~20-30 hp from this. The friend who recommended it to me has built a lot of engines, a lot of Z engines, and recently he did help another friend build up a Camaro, where they used this system, and he too is claiming around ~20hp increase on the dyno. I think he said his was ~300hp setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsunan Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 If your going to do it yourself I think z-tard is onto something, through a pipe fitting called an eductor, which is internally shaped to maximize the amount of vacuum created by the fluid forced through it. Like a sandblaster, I think the angle that the pipe come off the down pipe is important. I hate to admit to it but you could buy the part from Jegs and see if you can design it the same way, then return it unused to jegs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staledale Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Havn't heard anyone talk about it, but this worked with open exhaust. If you went thru the muffler there'd be back pressure. This was old school we used in the 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staledale Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Here's a couple of links that might interest you. http://www.moparts.com/Tech/Archive/race/6.html http://community-2.webtv.net/PAGEBUILDERPICS/CRANKCASEEVACUATION/ sometimes this link won't work try again http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1783&prmenbr=361 hope these help. Stale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 What about using the vacuum pump off of A Diesel Maxima?.The pump is located on the back of the alternator .I was thinking about doing this and routing the vacuum pump into an aircraft style oil/air seperator and running the oil back into the crankcase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staledale Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 That might be a trade off, the power gained might be lossed to the power needed to drive the vacuum pump. This system is a small HP gain, 22 hp might be a little over inflated. Max gain is going to be in the higher rpm range. (6,000 - 7,000). Wheres Grumpy Vette? I'm sure he'd have knowlege on this subject. Stale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 That was the part I thought most interesting about the dyno charts shown in the muscle car mag, where they were claiming some 20+ hp increase from running the vacuum pump (on a ~500hp engine). They did take into account, in that article, the parasitic losses from running the pump in the first place, which I believe they were estimating to be like 15hp? Also of interest was that they mentioned that the pump had, at least what I considered to be, a relatively short lifespan between rebuilds, something like every 10,000 miles or something like that. I immediately dismissed the idea of any practicality of something like this on a car like mine, but do figure that for ease and cost, the method for routing something into the exhaust using those venturi nozzles would be interesting to try. Too bad I'm broke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 240zJake Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Heres a link on the Hot Rod mag page: http://www.hotrod.com/tipstricks/42658/index8.html not much info... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro Posted November 5, 2004 Share Posted November 5, 2004 I'm a little late to the post but I can't believe that with all these motor heads on this site you didn't get the reason why it makes more hp with a vacuum in the crank case. It is called Ring Flutter. Vacuum in the crank case helps the rings seal at higher rpms. Vacuum pumps and vacuum at the header collector are commenly used. Here is a copy paste from a web search of "ring flutter" Ring Flutter Again, many people don’t know what this is. Ring flutter can best be understood by thinking of it as the piston rings going into a float or uncontrolled oscillation due to the imbalance of four forces: ring inertia, tangential ring pressure, compression pressure, and crankcase pressure. Normally the ring seals during the compression stroke by the forces of compression working on top of and behind the ring, coupled with the tangential pressure to seal against the cylinder bore and the bottom of the ring lands. This system functions well until this delicate equilibrium falls apart. As speed increases, the piston tries to get ahead of the ring. If it gets too far, the top ring land stops the ring. During this transition, there is a clear leak path developed around the back of the ring. Another critical point in this balance is the point in the ring travel where the ring is speeding up the bore on the compression stroke and it gets to the TDC where it suddenly stops and changes direction. The mass of the ring can affect this time off the ring land, hence the effort to get lighter ring packages. The tangential load and end gap are other factors affecting ring balance and hence blowby. The bottom line here is that if you have ring flutter, the easiest way to find it is with a blowby meter, whether in the car or on the dyno. When the engine gets to a speed where ring flutter occurs, the blowby will oscillate rapidly for a period, and then, typically, calm down again once the specific set of conditions have changed. Lately, many people have been experimenting with crankcase evacuation systems or vacuum systems, which seem to work. However, like everything that works, there is usually a cost associated with it. The cost here is the work necessary to create the vacuum, and the extra work done by the engine to overcome the vacuum pulling down on the pistons during part of the cycle. Consider that it might just be easier to eliminate the ring flutter and get on with life, rather than trying to create another variable and another subsystem. Accurate blowby measurement will allow you to work on this problem, whichever path you choose to pursue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CableSrv Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I have one issue that I would need clarification on. exhaust gasses are extremely hot and will expand whenever they can. Adding an opening to the exhaust is just adding another spot the exhaust gasses can expand to, even while holding velocity they still will tend to expand if they can. Personally I don't see vacum coming from the exhaust, intake I can because no heat or expanding gasses to worry about. now if velocity over whelms expanding gasses that could possibly cause vacum but I just don't see it. Someone care to explain in theory how velocity overwhelms expanding gasses ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Have you even see one of those nossels that attaches to a water hose that will suck a soap solution out of a can? When the main flow suddenly hits an area where the volume quickely gets bigger, it creats a slight suction at the edges of the flow, even if the flow is under pressure. Exhaust existing the combustion chamber will also help suck in the intake charge (scavaging). However, it doesn't happen all the time. Just at certain rpms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spork Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 well, it seems like no one has still done this? Or at least if they have, they haven't posted. lol. well, I guess I'll be the first then. A buddy and I are going to split up a kit he bought and hes doing it to his new drag car and I'm trying it out on my turbo Z. When ever I get around to making it to the dyno, I'll try and do my final 2 runs with the crankcase just vented vs it hooked up to my exhaust and see what the difference is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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