Track day shoes and pads?

[gramercyjam]

Help out a road racing newbie.

 

I'm taking the Z of Doom out to a PCA track weekend in May. I've never had the car at a high speed event before but it is a 2.25 mile track and I have stock brakes.

 

Should I go for the Carbotech or similar road race pads and shoes and risk melting down my stock rotors or just bring an extra set of stock pads and shoes and change them when they wear down?

 

I've only autocrossed the car and the stock brakes have always been good enough for that and I don't have the time to do much upgrading before the event as I've got too many other things to do before I can even take it off the jackstands!

[JMortensen]

Not sure about Carbotech. Check the heat rating for the pad material and compare against the others. I know Ross sells them.

 

I would use R4 or Hawk Blue pads, not sure about shoes. I think IIRC Porterfield makes an R4 shoe for the Z.

 

Put some high temp brake fluid in there, and if the pedal starts to feel mushy ease off, pull in, and bleed the brakes. I've used ATE Super Blue and boiled it many times. I understand Ford HD has a lower boiling point, and Motul 600 has a higher boiling point. I've been very slightly mushy in one corner then went completely off the track in the next because I boiled the fluid.

 

A buddy of mine with a 510 just went out to a track day on Blues. His gas slots were GONE at the end of the day but he had 2 drivers. Plan on replacing the rotors afterwards if you run the Blue pads. Hawk Blacks might work, but I don't know anyone who has run them on a Z to compare against. I'd be worried about overheating them. R4 never seemed to cause that much rotor wear for me FWIW, but they also didn't keep me from boiling the fluid.

 

Have fun!

 

Jon

[Synlubes]

John,

I put my vote on the carbotech pads and shoes.

They are also "rotor friendly".

I used Porterfield R-4`s and will say that they are very good product.

A noticeable difference running the Carbotech Panther plus (frt & rear).

I have rear drums and use the Toyota non-vented 4x4 calipers up front with a proportioning valve.

Don`t even think about going to a track event with "stock" pads and shoes.

And flush your brake system before you go.

And the most important thing is Have Fun !

[jt1]

Good advice above, definitely upgrade the pads and fluid. An OT event is much harder on the brakes than an AX event. If you have time put some cooling ducts on it, even if they are ghetto engineered, ie some hvac ducting from HD. They will help the solid rotors live. Be sure and take your brake bleeding equip and extra fluid to the track with you, if you over heat the brakes you'll have to bleed them to get the pedal back.

 

John

[Phantom]

Yeah, I'm getting ready for a Track day at Texas Motor Speedway in Frort Worth on May 14th. I've got stock drums inthe rear and the non-vented Toyota 4x4 upgrade in the front. I've gone with the Porterfield R4S pads and will be flushing my brake fluid the week before.

[gramercyjam]

Thanks for the advice guys! I'm heading down to the Rio Grand Valley for the 2 day RGVPCA (http://www.RGVPCA.org) time trials at Cameron County airport on May 22/23. I have heard these things are a blast but all the autoxer's who go come back with toasted brakes and tires.

 

I think I'll try the carbotech (and see if I can find some motul) Hopefully the rotors survive the weekend at the track. I have a set of Raybestos on there now that I put on when I got the car ten years ago. They have really lasted. I roughen up the rotors a little with a wire wheel and get more than enough bite for autox with them. I've got a wilwood prop. valve too that I can stick on, but I'll need to see if I can find the time. The car is stripped to bare metal (a BAD case of the while I'm at its) and I don't even want to think about how much work it will be to get it off the jack stands in the next 4 weeks. You know when you start thinking about that you just think theres too much to do to make it happen in time. I'm just hitting the garage every night for as long as I can.

[jt1]

The track I usually run at, CMP, is known for being a little hard on brakes:

 

 

The motul is excellent stuff, but I use the Valvoline Synpower synthetic Dot 4. Here in the humidity of NC, brake fluid picks up moisture quickly, and at 4.99 a quart at autozone, I can flush my fluid before every event without breaking the bank. The wet and dry boiling points are only slightly less than the motul. I've never had a problem with the Valvoline, and spend the saved money somewhere else.

 

Right now I'm spending it on some cooling ducts.

 

 

John

[Phantom]

Take a look at the Ford brake fluid. It's very close to the Motul and definitely less expensive.

[z-ya]

I flush my fluid a few days before an event. Definitely use DOT4 fluid at a minimum. The Porterfield R4S pads are a good street/track compromise. If you don't drive your car on the street much, get the Porterfield R4, Hawk, or some other race pad. Full race pads usually require quite a bit of heat before they actuall start working, so they are not good for autocross. You need to experiment a bit to find the best pad for you.

 

Pete

[Guest Anonymous]

Try the carbotechs, you'll love them. I have used them on my LT-1 Z for about a year now and they have never faded on the track and have been very kind to the rotors. Mark

[gramercyjam]

I called up carbotech this AM and ordered two sets. I wasn't really prepared to have to beg them to sell them to me!

 

I told them they were for a stock braked setup and I would probably be doing 125 laps over the weekend in 20 minute sessions. He basically told me the 240Z brakes were entirely inadequate and I should just go buy some hawk blues as when my performance wasn't up to what , I would blame his pads instead of the cars inadequate braking system and I would post it all over the Internet.

 

I promised not to blame his pads and to call him and let him know how they worked out.

[JMortensen]

That doesn't sound good.

 

Hopefully you won't end up with one of these:

http://hybridz.org/nuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=lastup&cat=14901&pos=0

 

Good luck out there. Be sure to pull the wheels and check the pads between sessions.

 

Jon

[JMortensen]

So how did this all work out John? Just curious to see how good those pads are...

[z-ya]

Wow, I thought my R4S pad were toast (chunks comming off at my last track event). Is that the metal backing plate? Melted right through? Holy Sh*t!

 

Of course you realize that the R4S pads are not good for high temp track use, especially with no venting, and solid rotors.

 

For the track 240Z I've been working on, we are going to try the R4 pads first. Hopfully we get the ducting done before the first track event.

 

Pete

[JMortensen]

Of course you realize that the R4S pads are not good for high temp track use, especially with no venting, and solid rotors.

 

WELL I DO NOW!!! Yeah the piston basically worked like a big hole puncher. I never did get the center of the pad out of the piston.

 

R4's worked ok at the big track for me, but I still had problems boiling the fluid every time. But at least the pad didn't evaporate!

[gramercyjam]

So how did this all work out John? Just curious to see how good those pads are...

 

Track weekend is in two weeks. I'll let you know. Right now the car looks like this

 

 

 

 

But I'm pressing on and will somehow get it all back together in time.

[johnc]

Hawk Blacks might work, but I don't know anyone who has run them on a Z to compare against.

 

That what I've run on my 240Z with the Outlaw 2800 calipers. Work great for time trials where I run 5 to 8 laps each session at most. Not a good endurace pad.

 

Hawk Blues are overkill for an OT day. Porterfield R4 pads and Ferodo Green Stuff rear shoes are a good combination for OT days. As said above, be prepared to bleed the brakes and adjust the rear drums a couple times during the day.

[JMortensen]

John, do you think the Blacks are too aggresive for autox? I'm looking for a pad that I can use for both. I know the Blacks need to heat up a little, but according to Hawk they only require 100* to start working. Sorry for the thread jack...

[johnc]

I've run them on my 240Z at autocrosses and they worked fine after the first corner.

[gramercyjam]

The event was a blast as expected. All I can say about my car is it performed better than I expected with absolutely no shake out time after the rebuild. It was very very quick in the twisties without a hint of misbehavior. I had an intructor for the first session, during which I was shaking out my car. I was driving fairly slowly trying to see if brakes and steering actually worked, and had no a clue about the layout of the course at the same time. My instructor seemed very frustrated that his instruction wasn't helping very much. But he eventually let me go on my own. Once I got a little more confidence in the car, and good idea of where the corners where, it was a whole new ball game.

 

I got black flagged twice, once for tire smoke from a fender rub, once for passing in a corner (by accident - I thought he was getting off).

 

There was a pond from some major water runoff near the end of one of the straight-aways that was a major concern to a lot of us. I can say it was like driving on ice everytime I hit that. I spun out in it near the end of the second practice session on Sat. at 120+ mph and hit a dirt berm pretty hard. (I'm guessing at the speed) The car launched about 4 feet into the air and messed up the passenger side of my car - bent a wheel - that put me out so I didn't get a timed run. Those that observed the incident said they were very suprised the car didn't end up on the roof and more suprised that I drove the car off course after that. It seemed to me the rear end kicked out a little in the water, probably due to a small rear toe mis-alignment - Too bad it isn't adustable on 240Z's. Any way, I managed to keep it straight for a little bit after that, but the water/muck just got deeper and the tail eventually came around.

 

Many people got into trouble in the water - one Vette spun out and went backward through the braking point markers, sending one of them through his rear hatch glass. An M3 lost part of his body kit there too.

 

Sunday morning a kid rolled his dad's BMW M3 in a tight corner, he was OK but the car looked fairly totalled (crushed roof - all glass gone) and it was taken away on a flatbed car hauler.

 

The Carbotech pads were great - but I don't think they got the ultimate workout. Once I got into the groove I pretty much stayed in third the whole track, and caught and passed all the cars in front of me just before or after the corners. I never experienced any fade or overheating and don't see any appreciable wear on the pads or rotors. At this point, I am not interested in upgrading my brakes from stock yet.

 

Can't wait for the next event!