Guest bastaad525 Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Been practicing my heel and toe downshifting... but I get the feeling I'm not doing it right. Was hoping to get some tips. I've got my rev matching for downshifting pretty good, like if I'm on the freeway and slowing down and need to downshift, or just downshifting for better acceleration, I can bring the revs up perfectly most of the time so that there's no sense of lurch or surge when I let the clutch out. But when I'm slowing down, rapidly, like usually when I'm say, coming down a freeway offramp, I can't seem to get it right. I can usually get from 5th to 4th perfectly, and then 4th to 3rd if I let of the brake to bring the revs up and shift... but anything more than that I can't pull off. Even if I take my foot off the brake I have a real hard time getting into 2nd or 1st without lurching a bit. The other thing is that while I can match the revs pretty good when I downshift, it's a slow process. Now I hear the term 'blip the throttle' a lot from you guys. I was wondering if this is how you guys do downshifts? When you say blip the throttle, EXACTLY what does that mean? You just tap it lightly? How far down do you push the pedal? Is this the technique I need to be using for heel and toe downshifting? Or should I keep trying to do what I"m doing, which is slowly applying throttle until I feel the revs are just about right. How fast should I be letting the clutch out? I would love to be able to master this and come fast out of a turn, say the offramp turn, which I usually enter in 3rd, and come powering out in 1st w/o lurching or w/o taking forever to shift! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsunlover Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Well, I know its called 'heel/toe' but I have my own technique using the sides of my right foot. I try to keep a CONSTANT presure on the brakes as Im downshifting as well.. lifting off the brakes will give a lurch or bounce IMO. Someone with more expirence should chime in here if any of the following is wrong/bad technique. Say your coming into a curve (like an off ramp, back road, or sometin) at speed in 4th. I use the left side/edge of my right foot to start aplying the brakes. Then as I push in the clutch, I use the RIGHT side of my right foot to 'lean/blip' into the throttle...sort of pivoting on my heel I guess.. keeping presure on the brakes (as much as you need.. you know) and shifting to 3rd. If you know your car, you can glance at the spedo and tach/listen to the engine, and release the clutch when the revs match. At this point (obviously) the right side of my foot is no longer in the throttle (seeing as the trans is now in 3d, and I'm using the engine to slow the car) but gets back into it again when I repeat the whole process for the 2nd gear downshift, and so on. This whole process happens in a VERY short period of time and it's one of those things that I just 'DO' now.. don't think much about it.. Hope this helps ...If I'm missing something, or I'm way off here, someone please speak up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruxGNZ Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 I actually do the exact same thing as datsunlover. The gas pedal and brake pedal are so close to one another, that you can use the left and right sides of your right foot (kind of at an angle with your toe pointing at 2 o'clock). You roll your ankle to hit the throttle while applying brake. I started out using my heel on the brake pedal and bliping the throttle with my toe, but it just didn't feel right. So, I switched. I tried using my toe for the brake and bliping the throttle with my heel. This way was easier to modulate the brake, but a little more difficult to match the rev's. I figured those two ways weren't working the best for me, so I just tried a way that felt good and well, the half/half method works for me. It sounds like you're letting off the brake pedal to blip the throttle while slowing down. During heel/toe, you do not do that. You are actually playing with all three pedals with your two feet at the same time. About "bliping the throttle", your just rev matching, like you said you can do. How much throttle to give? Depends on how fast your rpm's climb. It seriously all comes down to experience. I never look at my rpm's or mph when slowing down rapidly using heel/toe anymore. I just know what my car is doing by the sounds of it. After a while, you know when you are supposed to down shift just by the sounds and not over rev. !M! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayAreaZT Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Same technique with me but I point my foot the other way. Toe pointing at 11 o'clock. Side of my foot on the brake and roll over to the throttle. I just do it by ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 25, 2004 Share Posted April 25, 2004 Doing the same as the others, but for some reason I'm always smoothest racing. For whatever reason its easier to hit the rpms when they're higher in my Z. Your turbo might not rev as fast in neutral or with the clutch pushed in, which means you may have to do everything a little slower than a NA car. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 Well' date=' I know its called 'heel/toe' but I have my own technique using the sides of my right foot. I try to keep a CONSTANT presure on the brakes as Im downshifting as well.. lifting off the brakes will give a lurch or bounce IMO. Someone with more expirence should chime in here if any of the following is wrong/bad technique. Say your coming into a curve (like an off ramp, back road, or sometin) at speed in 4th. I use the left side/edge of my right foot to start aplying the brakes. Then as I push in the clutch, I use the RIGHT side of my right foot to 'lean/blip' into the throttle...sort of pivoting on my heel I guess.. keeping presure on the brakes (as much as you need.. you know) and shifting to 3rd. If you know your car, you can glance at the spedo and tach/listen to the engine, and release the clutch when the revs match. At this point (obviously) the right side of my foot is no longer in the throttle (seeing as the trans is now in 3d, and I'm using the engine to slow the car) but gets back into it again when I repeat the whole process for the 2nd gear downshift, and so on. This whole process happens in a VERY short period of time and it's one of those things that I just 'DO' now.. don't think much about it.. Hope this helps ...If I'm missing something, or I'm way off here, someone please speak up![/quote'] sounds EXACTLY like what I do... I can usually do the one gear downshifts like this pretty well, as long as I'm in the final gear I want to be in BEFORE I enter the turn. It's easy as there is almost an exact 1000rpm difference for each gearchange... so I just bring it up 1000rpm for each downshift when I'm trying to engine brake like that. The problem I REALLY have is when I'm trying to downshift more than one gear... either I'm not matching the revs right or what I dunno... but there's been times I've coasted onto the onramp in 5th, slowed way down for the turn w/o engine breaking, and then needed to shift into 2nd or even 1st, and just can't seem to pull it off smoothly. I know I'm pretty good with knowin which speed in which gear would be which RPM... Well mostly I just wasn't sure about 'blipping the throttle' as I usually give a smooth, slow dip into the throttle to get the revs close... I guess I just need to keep practicing to get it where I can do it faster, by ear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruxGNZ Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 The problem I REALLY have is when I'm trying to downshift more than one gear... either I'm not matching the revs right or what I dunno... but there's been times I've coasted onto the onramp in 5th, slowed way down for the turn w/o engine breaking, and then needed to shift into 2nd or even 1st, and just can't seem to pull it off smoothly. I know I'm pretty good with knowin which speed in which gear would be which RPM... You go through the gears. This is just my experience from listening to and watching other drivers. If you're in 5th, you down shift to 4th then third, ect.. You don't skip the gears, I was told that it was a very bad habit to get into. You can rev match the gears while decelerating slowly, but you heel/toe when decelerating quickly forcing you to rev match while braking. Understand? !M! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 The term "heel and toe" dates back to the days when race cars had the throttle pedal in the center and the brake pedal on the right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruxGNZ Posted April 26, 2004 Share Posted April 26, 2004 The term "heel and toe" dates back to the days when race cars had the throttle pedal in the center and the brake pedal on the right. Really? In the center? Funky. !M! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CableSrv Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 nothing wrong with going from 5th to 3rd as long as you match 3rd's rpm limit which usually means near the end of your rpms or close to it. the idea as princable behind heel/toe is downshifting WHILE braking. You apply brakes SLIGHTLY, then press in clutch and shift to neutral, and let off the clutch. blip your throttle till the correct rpm for the gear you plan to drop into, then quickly depress the clutch, drop into the gear then let off clutch again while STILL holding brakes!!! then press on gas to exit corner. toe/heel is mainly used for slowing down while still in power IN A CORNER TURN not in straite areas. that's just double clutching double clutching is the term of pressing in clutch blipping throttle and rev matching to a lower gear but NOT touching the brakes!!! mainly used just to either jump into a power band or help brake using engine friction without touching the brakes themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 You apply brakes SLIGHTLY Not true. Heel toe is a racing technique used to downshift the transmission into the proper gear for power application on corner exit while braking hard before corner entry. By its very nature you are threshold braking with your toe (or ball of your foot) AND blipping the throttle to rev match on downshifts to keep from locking the rear wheels. Its a very difficult technique to perform correctly and its something you have to be able to do to turn fast laps. double clutching is the term of pressing in clutch blipping throttle and rev matching to a lower gear but NOT touching the brakes!!! mainly used just to either jump into a power band or help brake using engine friction without touching the brakes themselves. Again, not true. Double clutching is pressing the clutch in, shifting to neutral, releasing the clutch, revving the engine, pressing the clutch in again, shifting to the next higher or lower gear, and then releasing the clutch. Its used to match input and counter shaft speeds in the transmission to allow for shifting non-synchromesh transmissions (older street and race cars and large trucks). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CableSrv Posted April 28, 2004 Share Posted April 28, 2004 johnc you are correct and more detailed about double clutching than what I said but that is what I meant. and again correct about the braking slightly part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2126 Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 One thing I did to facilitate easier "heel/toe" manuvers was by installing a set of Sparco alloy pedals. Of course any good pedal supplier will due! It will provide you a little latitude in positioning them for easiers pedal access. For instance.....I mounted the throttle pedal so it has a slight tilt (the bottom of the pedal) toward the brake pedal. So now I don't have to move my heel as far to blip the throttle. Some of the after market pedals actually have tabs at the bottom of the throttle pedal that protrude toward the brake pedal. Anywho, I think that positionong the pedals, to your liking, is a helpful thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZROSSA Posted April 29, 2004 Share Posted April 29, 2004 If you really want to figure out how to match revs dont use the clutch at all. I had a old corolla at college that had a crappy master cylinder that i couldnt afford to get fixed for about 6 months. You had to start the engine in 1st gear and change without the clutch up and down the gears. Never had a problem since. I still do it sometimes just to stop bordom in traffic Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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