perhaps a viable project for project cars?

[Guest bobnagga]

PRELIMINARY PLANS

 

 

 

TO RUN YOUR CAR ON TAP WATER!

 

 

 

IT ALSO WORKS ON YOUR

 

TRUCK / RV / MOTORCYCLE / AIRPLANE (ETC)

 

 

 

Will This Work?

 

 

 

These plans were sent to the Spirit of Ma'at anonymously, from someone who does not want his or her name printed (for obvious reasons).

 

 

 

We have had them checked by an expert who believes that they are real.

 

 

 

We also have talked with another individual who has patented a similar device, and we know by personal experience that the technology is sound.

 

 

 

So although we cannot guarantee it, we believe these plans will enable you to build a car that runs on water.

 

 

 

If you test it out, though, do as the writer suggests and use an old car that doesn't represent a loss of value if you can't make it work. And leave everything intact so that you can always reconnect back to gas if you have to.

 

 

 

But if you do get it working, please send us your experience for our readers. You could be a national hero and help save our country and our world.

 

 

 

We know for certain that an automobile will run on water. So this could be an interesting project for you mechanical types, with a great reward of never having to purchase gasoline for the rest of your life — and helping humanity at the same time.

 

 

 

Re The Need to Rustproof Your Exhaust System

 

 

 

It is possible to make a hybrid of both gas and water (a system that is being tested now in Mexico), which would eliminate the need to open the head and remove the exhaust system. Just a thought. It takes only a small amount of gas to keep the system dry.

 

 

 

The text sent from the anonymous individual was edited slightly for better reading. The following is his/her words and drawings, which has been given into the public domain.

 

— Spirit of Ma’at LLC

 

 

 

Introduction

 

In working with these instructions,

you will first want to print out the diagrams

at Figure 1 (labeled Figure 4) and Figure 2

(labeled Figure 5). The diagrams are

large files, so please be patient while they load.

 

It is suggested you try this out to begin with on a second vehicle you own, one that you don't need to live with everyday, until you perfect this technology.

 

 

 

Do-it-yourself plans allow the individual (that's you and me, folks) to make a difference. This is the easiest and lowest-cost way to convert your car to run on (relatively) free energy.

 

 

 

Now, with existing technology, anyone can stand up and make a difference by reducing the local automotive pollution, eliminate gasoline expenses, help restore our atmosphere, and breathe a little easier.

 

 

 

In putting these plans into operation, you will be making use of your entire existing system except for the fuel tank and the catalytic converter.

 

 

 

The Plan

 

 

 

Build and install a low-cost alternative method for running your vehicle (internal combustion engine) on tap water, using off-the-shelf components.

 

 

 

This is simply an efficient way to convert ordinary tap water into gaseous hydrogen and oxygen, and then burn these vapors in the engine, instead of gasoline.

 

 

 

This "minisystem" runs easily from your existing battery and electrical system, and it plugs into your carburetor with simple off-the-shelf fittings.

 

 

 

You will be installing a plastic water tank, a control circuit, a reaction chamber, a hi-pressure carb/FI fitting, and 3 gauges, and then hooking into your existing carb/FI.

 

 

 

The simplicity comes from its being an "on-demand" system requiring no fancy storage or plumbing. You crank the gas pedal or throttle, and you electrically create more vapor for immediate consumption, on demand; low-high flow rate as needed, from idle to maximum power. The only real change is that you are using tap water as fuel, instead of the traditional petroleum-based fuel.

 

 

 

Given a choice, which way would you choose?

 

 

 

Frequently Asked Questions

 

 

 

Q: Does it really work ?

 

A: Yes; this is well-established technology dating back to stainless steel. But be sure to follow these instructions using the proper mechanical and electrical assembly techniques, as this plan incorporates the best qualities of several techniques.

 

 

 

Q: How does it qualify as "free energy"?

 

A: If you're paying someone for the water you use, then it is not strictly free. But the alternative is to keep buying into expen$ive ga$oline and its resultant hydrocarbon pollution.

 

 

 

Q: Is it safe?

 

A: Technically, it is safer than running on fossil fuel because you are no longer choking on your own emissions (health-wise). In general, it is practically as safe as your current gasoline arrangement. You will be installing a few simple safety devices, using current automotive standards.

 

 

 

Q: What kind of performance can I expect?

 

A: Properly adjusted, your modified vapor-only fuel system will run cooler, and at a modestly higher power level. The mileage performance expected from this design ranges from 50-300 mpg (of water), depending on your adjusting skills.

 

 

 

Q: Can I do the modification myself?

 

A: Why not? If you don't have any mechanical skills, and you know someone with basic mechanical and/or electrical skills, you can even delegate some of the construction. If you are using a fuel-injected engine, you may have to get a mechanic's opinion. [There will have to be an adapter inserted into the fuel-injection system, just as you would have to do if you were going to run on propane, hydrogen, or natural gas. Ed.)

 

 

 

Q: What is the environmental impact that my vehicle will have?

 

A: It will be producing H20 steam (water vapor) and unburnt O2 (Oxygen). Hence, it will be cleaning the environment, rather than dumping nauseous toxins into it. Plus you will be helping to save our dwindling supply of atmospheric oxygen. Any excess vapor in the reaction becomes either steam or oxygen. You can also expect to be receiving more than casual interest from those around you.

 

 

 

Q: Isn’t this really a steam engine?

 

A: No. Really. Exceedingly high temperature and pressure are not used. This is strictly an internal-combustion engine (burning orthohydrogen) with residual steam in the exhaust as a by-product.

 

 

 

Read This

 

 

 

There are a few things you should know about gasoline:

 

 

 

Gasoline as a fuel is not necessary; it is optional.

 

 

 

Gasoline versus Water

 

 

 

There is a lot of thermochemical energy in gasoline, but there is even more energy in water. The DOE (Department of Energy) has quoted about 40%, so it is probably much more than that.

 

 

 

Most people are unaware that "internal combustion" is defined as "a thermo-vapor process" — as in "no liquid in the reaction." Most of the gasoline in a standard internal combustion engine is actually consumed, (cooked, and finally, broken down) in the catalytic converter after the fuel has been not-so-burnt in the engine. Sadly, this means that most of the fuel we use in this way is used only to cool down the combustion process, a pollution-ridden and inefficient means of doing that.

 

 

 

How It Works

 

 

 

Exceedingly simple. Water is pumped as needed to replenish and maintain the liquid level in the chamber. The electrodes are vibrated with a 0.5-5A electrical pulse which breaks 2(H2O) => 2H2 + O2. When the pressure reaches say 30-60 psi, you turn the key and go. You step on the pedal, you send more energy to the electrodes, and thus more vapor to the cylinders; i.e. fuel vapor on demand.

 

 

 

You set the idle max-flow rate to get the most efficient use of power, and you're off to the races.

 

 

 

In the big picture, your free energy is coming from the tap water in an open system, as the latent energy in the water is enough to power the engine and hence drive the alternator and whatever belt-driven accessories. And the alternator is efficient enough to run the various electrical loads (10 - 20 amps), including the additional low current to run this vapor reaction. No extra batteries are required.

 

 

 

STEP BY STEP CONSTRUCTION

 

 

 

OVERVIEW - Here is the suggested sequence of steps:

 

 

 

1. Install the CHT (or EGT) gauge and measure your current operating temp range (gasoline), for comparison.

 

 

 

2. Build and test the controller to verify the correct pulse output.

 

 

 

3. Build the reaction chamber and test it with the controller (i.e pressure out).

 

 

 

4. Install the tank, controller, chamber, and pressure fittings.

 

 

 

5. Run engine and adjust the control circuit as necessary for best performance.

 

 

 

6. Install the stainless steel valves and get the pistons/cylinders coated with ceramic.

 

 

 

7. Coat the exhaust system with ceramic without the catalytic converter (or let it rust out and then replace the whole dang thang with stainless steel pipe sections).

 

 

 

YOU WILL NEED

 

 

 

· plastic water tank with pump and level sensor.

 

· control circuit, wiring, connectors, and epoxy.

 

· reaction chamber with electrodes and fittings.

 

· 3/8" stainless steel flex-tubing, fittings and clamps.

 

· carb/FI vapor-pressure fitting kit. - pressure, CHT (or EGT), & level gauges.

 

· stainless steel valves.

 

· copper mesh junction.

 

· ceramic surface treatment for cylinders & pistons.

 

· stainless steel or ceramic treated exhaust assembly.

 

 

 

BASIC TOOLS

 

 

 

· drill, screwdriver and pliers

 

· hole cutter

 

· wire-wrap, solder-iron and clippers

 

· DVM and oscilloscope.

 

 

 

REACTION CHAMBER

 

 

 

Construct as shown in the diagram. Use a section of 4" PVC waste pipe with a threaded screw-cap fitting on one end and a standard end-cap at the other. Make sure to drill-and-epoxy or tap threads thru the PVC components for all fittings. Set and control the water level in the chamber so that it well submerses the pipe electrodes; yet leave some headroom to build up the hydrogen/oxygen vapor pressure. Use stainless steel wires inside the chamber or otherwise use a protective coating; use insulated wires outside. Ensure that the epoxy perfects the seal, or otherwise lay down a bead of water-proof silicone that can hold pressure.

 

 

 

The screw fitting may require soft silicone sealant, or a gasket; its purpose is to hold pressure and allow periodic inspection of the electrodes. No leaks, no problems. Make sure you get a symmetric 1-5mm gap between the 2 stainless steel pipes. The referenced literature suggests that the closer to 1mm you get, the better. You will want to get your chamber level sensor verified before you epoxy the cap on.

 

 

 

Make your solder connections at the wire/electrode junctions nice, smooth, and solid; then apply a water-proof coating, e.g. the epoxy you use for joining the pipes to the screw cap. This epoxy must be waterproof and be capable of holding metal to plastic under pressure. You will want to get your chamber level sensor verified before you epoxy the cap on.

 

 

 

CONTROL CIRCUIT

 

 

 

The diagrams show a simple circuit to control and drive this mini-system. You are going to make a 'square-pulse' signal that 'plays' the electrodes like a tuning fork; which you can watch on an oscilloscope. The premise given by the literature is: the faster you want do go down the road, the 'fatter' you make the pulses going into the reaction chamber. Duty cycle will vary with the throttle in the vicinity of 90%MARK 10%SPACE (OFF/ON).

 

 

 

There is nothing sacred about how the pulse waveform is generated; there are many ways to generate pulses, and the attached diagrams show a few. The NE555-circuit approach (see diagrams) is from the referenced patent. The output switching transistor must be rated for 1-5 amps @ 12VDC (in saturation).

 

 

 

Go with a plan that works for you or your friendly neighborhood technoid or mechanic, and go get all the circuit elements from your local electronics store, such as Radio-Shack or Circuits-R-Us, including the circuit board, IC sockets, and enclosure/box.

 

 

 

DigiKey has better selection, service, and knowledge; plus they have no minimum order. Be sure to use a circuit board with a built-in ground plane, and to accommodate room for mounting 2 or 3 of the gauges. Mounting the reaction chamber in the engine compartment will require running a stub to your pressure gauge where you can watch it.

 

 

 

You can easily make 30-gauge wire-wrap connections between the socket pins and thru-hole discrete components having wire leads. Also make sure to get spec sheets on any IC you use. More details of the best circuits to use will be announced pending prototype testing. You will want to get your chamber level sensor verified before you epoxy the cap on.

 

 

 

Throttle Control

 

 

 

If you have a throttle position sensor, you should be able to access the signal from the sensor itself OR from the computer connector. This signal is input to the circuit as the primary control (i.e. throttle level = pulse width = vapor rate).

 

 

 

If you don't have such a signal available, you will have to rig a rotary POT (variable resistor) to the gas linkage (i.e. coupled to something at the gas pedal or throttle cable running to the carb or FI. If you make the attachment at the carb/FI, be sure to use a POT that can handle the engine temp cycles. Don't use a cheezy-cheapy POT; get one rated for long life and mechanical wear; mount it securely to something sturdy and stationary that will not fall apart when you step on the gas.

 

 

 

Control Range. The full throttle RANGE (idle-max) MUST control the vapor rate, i.e. pulse-width (duty). The resistor values at the throttle signal must allow the throttle signal voltage, say 1-4 Volt swing, to drive the VAPOR RATE. You will be using this voltage swing to generate a 10% ON 'square' pulse. The patent implies using a 'resonant' pulse in the 10-250 KHz frequency range; but it is not explicitly stated so.

 

 

 

In this circuit, you will simply tune to whatever frequency makes the most efficient vapor conversion. You will have to get into the specs for each IC you use, to insure you connect the right pins to the right wires, to control the frequency and pulse width. You can use spare sockets to try out different discrete component values. Just keep the ones that are spec-compatible in the circuit, and get the job done.

 

 

 

You crank up the throttle signal and put more electrical energy (fatter pulses) into the electrodes; verify you can get 10% duty on the scope (2 - 100 usec on the horizontal time-base). Your averaging DVM will display the 90%-10% DC voltage across the output transistor (Vce or Vds or Output to Ground). Set and connect DVM in the supply current and measure .5 - 5 amps, without blowing the DVM fuse. Now verify that you got everything you wanted.

 

 

 

Verify your wiring connections using your DVM as a continuity detector. Check your wiring 1 at a time and yellow line your final schematic as you go. You can best use board-mount miniature POTs for anything you want to set-and-forget. The LEDs are there to give you a quick visual check of normal vs abnormal operation of your new creation. You will want to get your chamber level sensor verified before you epoxy the cap on.

 

 

 

CARB/FI CONNECTION

 

 

 

The diagrams also show that fittings are required to the carb/FI l. There are ready-made kits (such as by Impco) available for making your pressure fittings to the carburetor or fuel-injector as the case may be. You will necessarily be sealing the built-in vents and making a 1-way air-intake.

 

 

 

The copper mesh comprises the inadvertent backfire' protection for the reaction chamber. Make sure that all vapor/duct junctions are air-tight and holding full pressure without leakage. Your new 'system' is considered successful and properly adjusted when you get the full power range at lower temp and minimum vapor flow without blowing the pressure safety valve.

 

 

 

CHT (or EGT)

 

 

 

Monitor your engine temp with the CHT (cylinder head temp) or EGT (exhaust gas temp) instead of your original engine temp indicator (if any). Your existing gauge is too slow for this application and will not warn you against overheating until after you have burnt something. Make sure that your engine runs no hotter than in the gasoline arrangement. VDO makes a CHT gauge with a platinum sensor that fits under your spark plug against the cylinder head (make sure it is really clean before you re-install your spark plug (as this is also an electrical ground).

 

 

 

ENGINE/EXHAUST TREATMENT

 

 

 

Get the valves replaced with stainless steel ones and get the pistons/cylinders ceramic-treated ASAP when you have successfully converted and run your new creation. Do not delay as these items will rust, either by sheer use or by neglect (i.e. letting it sit). You could make max use of your current exhaust system by using it with your new deal until it rusts through, then have your mechanic or welder friend to fit a stainless steel exhaust pipe (no catalytic converter is required). But it could be easier and cheaper to send your existing exhaust system out for the ceramic treatment, and then simply re-attach it to the exhaust ports.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GENERAL

 

 

 

1. Do not discard or remove any of the old gasoline setup components, e.g. tank, carb/FI, catalytic converter, unless necessary. Better to always leave an easy way to revert back to something that at least runs, just in case. Some people are leaving their gasoline setup completely intact, and switching back and forth at will, just to have a backup plan.

 

 

 

2. Set your throttle circuit so that you get minimum vapor flow at idle, and maximum vapor flow at full power without blowing the pressure relief valve. In this way, you control how 'lean' your mixture is by the strength of the pulse (i.e. “fatness†at the optimum pulse frequency).

 

 

 

3. If you just don't get enough power (at any throttle setting), it means that you need to (1) change the pulse frequency, (2) change the gap between the electrodes, (3) change the size (bigger) electrodes, or (4) make a higher output pulse voltage (last resort). Always use an output transistor, such as a MOSFET, that is rated for the voltage and current you need to get the job done. OK so you might have to play around with it some. Isn't that where all the Fun is anyhow?

 

 

 

4. If you get any engine knock our loud combustions (not compensated by adjusting the timing), it means that you need to install an additional coil in the chamber, and drive the coil with an additional pulse signal (about 19 Hz on the .1sec time base). Here, you will be slowing down the burn rate just enough so that the vapors burn thru out the power stroke of the piston. Be sure to include a board-mount POT to set the correct strength of this 2nd pulse signal into the coil. This is a stainless steel coil of about 1500 turns (thin wire) that you can arrange like a donut around the center pipe (but NOT touching either electrode), directly over the circular 1-5mm gap. You want no knocking at any power/throttle setting; smooth power only, but also no excess hydrogen leftover from the combustion.

 

 

 

5. Build the canister(s) as tall as you can without compromising your ability to mount them conveniently near the dash panel, or in the engine compartment, as the case may be. This way, you can always make the electrodes bigger, if necessary without undue hardship. Remember that anything in the engine compartment should be mounted in a bullet-proof, vibration and temperature tolerant fashion.

 

 

 

6. If you have to drill a thru-hole for wiring or plumbing thru metal, make sure to also install a grommet for protection against chafing. Always watch your chamber pressure range from IDLE (15-25 psi) - FULL POWER (30-60 psi). Set your safety-pressure relief-valve to 75 psi and make sure it's rated for much higher.

 

 

 

7. Shut OFF the power switch and pull over if there is any malfunction of the system. Your engine will last longest when it still develops FULL POWER+ at some minimum temperature that we are sure you can find, by leaning back the Royal Vapor Flow and/or by making use of the water-vapor cooling technique. Keep good mpg performance records, and periodic maintenance/inspection. Keep it clean; save some money; clean the air; heal the planet; happy motoring; tell a friend; enjoy your freedom and self-empowerment.

 

 

 

8. There lacks documented material for perfecting this vapor system thru a fuel injector; there may be some details you will discover on your own as working prototypes progress. For example, you may be restricted to inject the hydrogen/oxygen vapor without any water vapor, as it may rust the injectors. If engine temp and CHT is a problem, then you will want to re-think your plan, e.g. ceramic-coating the injectors. There is always “replacing the FI system with a Carb.â€

 

 

 

9. If you install the water-vapor system (for lower operating temp/stress), you will want to lean the mixture (vapor/air) for minimum vapor flow rate to achieve any given throttle position (idle - max). Make sure that you get a minimum flow for IDLE and a modestly sufficient flow for MAX, that does the cooling job without killing the combustion.

 

 

 

10. If you cannot find stainless steel pipe combinations that yield the 1-5mm gap, you can always regress back to alternating plates of +/- electrodes.

 

 

 

11. If you are concerned about the water freezing in your system, you can (a) add some 98% isopropyl alcohol and re-adjust the pulse frequency accordingly; or ( install some electric heating coils.

 

 

 

12. Do not let ANYONE ever compromise your dream, your freedom, your independence or your truth.

 

 

 

REFERENCES

 

Stephen Chambers 'Apparatus for Producing Orthohydrogen and/or

 

Parahydrogen' US Patent 6126794, uspto.gov

 

Stanley Meyer 'Method for the Production of a Fuel Gas' US Patent 4936961,

 

uspto.gov

 

Creative Science & Research, 'Fuel From Water', fuelless.com

 

Carl Cella “A Water-Fuelled Car†Nexus Magazine Oct-Nov 1996

 

Peter Lindemann “Where in the World is All the Free Energyâ€, free-energy.cc

 

George Wiseman “The Gas-Saver and HyCO Series†eagle-research.com

 

C. Michael Holler “The Dromedary Newsletter†and “SuperCarb Techniquesâ€

 

Stephen Chambers “Prototype Vapor Fuel System†xogen.com

 

 

 

COMMON LAW COPYRIGHT #285714: All rights to the use and duplication of these plans are hereby reserved for the People, in their efforts to heal and restore the environment. Dare to express your uniqueness and environmental ideals. This technology is an exercise in responsible self-determination.

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER: The Spirit of Ma'at LLC and the Spirit of Ma'at ezine and the author of this document assumes no liability for the use or misuse of this information; which is made available as public-domain information and free of charge, for the purposes of education, ecology, health, well-being, freedom, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

[mobythevan]

Ok, I seperated water into hydrogen and oxygen gas using electrodes in chemistry class back in high school and the rate at which the gas was seperated could probably run a motorcycle for a piss ant. But if there was a faster way to do it without requiring an industrial power plant being towed behind I suppose it could work. I am always open minded, but I remember this being a small yield operation.

[Guest bobnagga]

it's called the "parallel circuit," holmes. plus you prolly used a square battery, right? A single set of electrodes is indeed a low yield deal, but maybe several sets wired in parallel would do a better job of it. Plates or pipes as this calls for has more surface area, you see, than a couple of little 14ga wires, no?

 

Besides, it's not my idea. It is enticing, but it's not mine. If I recall, in chemistry class, salt water was used, no? This seems different somehow. It uses frequency to do the separating rather than salt water's conductivity.

 

Just speculation. Maybe a chemist could better explain how this "Tuning fork" operation works. I don't know.

[mobythevan]

Besides, it's not my idea.

 

I'm not getting after you, just the idea. If it takes a bunch of batteries then it will have to be recharged like an electric car all the time. The engine is not going to be able to power the vehicle and charge a bunch of batteries. Seems like just sticking with straight electric car would work better. Sounds like somebody will be setting back laughing at all the guys trying to get the tuning fork thing working. Nothing against you, build one and prove us all wrong, then charge a lot of money for it and laugh at us.

[mark]

Sure this will work. I have several running around my town now. I liked the part about getting you pistons and cylinders ceramic coated ASAP. Sure no problem. One born every day or was it hour or minute. Seems like one per second around my neck of the woods. Mark

[gramercyjam]

do a google groups search on the patent numbers. this has been discussed ad-nauseum by pseudo scientific types for more than 10 years. It seems to me we would all be filling our gas tanks with a garden hose by now if it wasn't a hoax.

[JMortensen]

I knew a "pseudo-scientific" type years back who showed me the patent for a water based hydrogen bug. He had the patent and he had pictures. The converted VW bug apparently drove all the way across the US back in the 70's.

 

My two thoughts are:

 

1. The patent paperwork and pics could have been complete BS

 

2. Another friend of mine in HIGH SCHOOL started drawing up a hydrogen injection system. Drawing. On scratch paper. When he felt he was getting somewhere he called GM. They bought his drawings for $5000. No prototype. Just drawings of a high school senior.

 

They even joke about this on That 70's Show. Hyde is always going off on the govt conspiracy over the car that runs on water when he's stoned. Is there a govt conspiracy? Don't know. Could there be a corporate conspiracy? Well, GM did buy my friend's sketches...

 

Realistically though every time I've heard a scientist address this they always say that it takes more energy to separate the water molecule than you can get back by burning the hydrogen atoms.

 

Jon

[Guest bobnagga]

think real hard... which system in an automobile takes that 12v from the battery and turns it into 20,000 to upwards of 80,000volts? Sure it would take a lot of batteries to pull it off, but how many coils would it take? It seems that that battery can do a lot more than you're giving it credit for. The additional strain of a second coil on the alternator is not very much at all considering that newfangled engines have one for each cylender... and the ones before that had one for two cylenders.

 

So perhaps a switching mechanism to power a coil to power the electrodes would yeild a lot more than a gaggle of batteries would... only speculation.

 

oh. And give me an electric motor that can compete with the internal combustion engine at the same electrical load, and I'll give you a buyer.

[Guest bobnagga]

one more thing, how much gasoline would it take to get the same size flameage for a given amount of hydrogen? Does anyone know? I've been trying to find that out for a while now.

[biohazard53188]

think real hard... which system in an automobile takes that 12v from the battery and turns it into 20,000 to upwards of 80,000volts? Sure it would take a lot of batteries to pull it off, but how many coils would it take? It seems that that battery can do a lot more than you're giving it credit for. The additional strain of a second coil on the alternator is not very much at all considering that newfangled engines have one for each cylender... and the ones before that had one for two cylenders.

 

So perhaps a switching mechanism to power a coil to power the electrodes would yeild a lot more than a gaggle of batteries would... only speculation.

 

oh. And give me an electric motor that can compete with the internal combustion engine at the same electrical load, and I'll give you a buyer.

 

You sound like you know what your talking about so why dont you build one.

[warrenHLS3083301]

The whole concept of running cars on hydrogen is that it is a good way to store energy, the energy you use to break the bonds in water you regain when you burn the hydrogen. The benefit is that hydrogen is a much cleaner way to run youre car. The new Mercedes runs on gasoline or liquid hydrogen, but there are concerns on the safty of carrying a tank of liquid hydrogen around under youre car. I think in time all new cars will run on liquid hydrogen.

[73ZCAR]

LOL,

 

No such thing as a free lunch.

 

Mike.

[bschiltz]

Did you notice the post date, biohazard? I wonder if this guy ever got anywhere, or if he rusted his pistons in place.

[zedsaid]

Read this thread last week when it got bumped, so it really caught my eye when Mythbusters (on the discovery channel) actually built one of these systems to test out.

 

Not to spoil the results (ok, exactly to spoil them) it didn't work. Low yield of gases.

 

They did, though, run a hydrogen hose directly to the carb, and the (unmodified) engine ran off the gas... until it backfired and shot flames back out through the carb. They then decided not to play with that again.

[Guest Mike]

The way to do this is with photovoltaic, wind generated or other renewable energy source to seperate the H and O2 from water and compress the H into liquid form. This is what will provide not only clean energy but "free" as well. It does work but only if the extraction process is powered externally.

 

EDIT: World's fastest H-powered cars...

http://www.clean-air.org/Hydrogen%20Cobra%20Story/Hydrogen%20Cobra.htm

 

http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/27339/newsDate/24-Sep-2004/story.htm

[getZ]

Great topic!

 

I was reading a book over the holidays on hydrogen energy entitled "Hyrdogen, Hot Stuff Cool Science" that I got from Edmund scientific on line.

 

One of the limitations (using a fuel cell as engine) is just the sheer volume required to get enough energy. Hydrogen is riduculously light but even in a liquid state contains less chemical energy than gasoline by volume. However, by weight it has much more chemical energy (a gallon of liquid hydrogen weighs something like two pounds) Unless you can design an engine that is much more efficient than standard gasoline engine (somewhere I believe around 20%) you already have some big hurdles to overcome not to mention getting liquid hydrogen isn't that easy and neither is converting hydrogen to liquid.

 

Yet I still hope the technology can be developed at least to an infancy to spur on competition by privateers. I'm always a little suspicious of oil companies developing this stuff. What incentive do they have to decentralize the energy business?

[tannji]

New spin on this old story... much better hype and marketing, I think.....

 

http://hytechapps.com/

 

They claim to have developed a new process with a new classification of fuel gas, with wild properties. This is aimed at the metal-working industry and gas torches in particular, but they also claim to be running two test vehicles around, gas powered with an additive plumbed in through a supplimental injection system, which increases fuel efficiency by 30% or so.

There are some interesting vids, but not much in the way of solid documentation or verification. Read/watch the part where they demonstate an Oxy/Acetylene type torch, and the claimed temp variations depending on the substance being cut. If its a fraud, its an intertaining one, and leaves me a little pissed off that this is the type of thing that should be worked for, but more effort is spent promoting fraud than developing tech.

[Guest Mike]

This is simply using hydrogen as fuel. Extraction and liquification cannot be done in any usable quantity within the vehicle because the equipment, and power source(s) are too large and heavy. This process must be powered by an external source of electrical energy. If we intend to call this truly clean/renewable energy our external power must come from a renewable source such as photovoltaics, wind generators, solar Sterling engines, geothermal, etc.

 

To extract as much usable HP as possible from an internal combustion engine, it should be purpose-built for running on H. Regarding HP, hydrogen alone cannot compete with gasoline or alcohol. This stated... I wonder how H would perform if mixed with the proper ratio of pure O2 rather than air???

 

BTW, the last statement above isn't intended to steer BOBNAGGA's thread into high performance arena. I'm just curious as to how much perfomance can be had from burning pure H and O2.

[getZ]

"I'm just curious as to how much perfomance can be had from burning pure H and O2."

 

Enough to leave the earth. That's what that old Saturn V upper stages were powered by, liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen.

[Guest Mike]

Hah... yeah but in huge quantities:grin: