Why Stay in Iraq?

[johnc]

"War is a series of catastrophes that results in victory." — Georges Clemenceau

 

http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/000521.html

 

http://victorhanson.com/articles/hanson091704.html

[Mikelly]

John John John... You still trying to sway people?

 

I gave up man... You can lead a horse...

 

Mike 8)

[tannji]

here are two meaty quotes from the first link:

 

Israel's triumph over the Palestinian attempt to unravel its society is the result of a systematic assault on terrorism that emerged only fitfully over the past four years. The fence, initially opposed by the army and the government, has thwarted terrorist infiltration in those areas where it has been completed. Border towns like Hadera and Afula, which had experienced some of the worst attacks, have been terror-free since the fence was completed in their areas. Targeted assassinations and constant military forays into Palestinian neighborhoods have decimated the terrorists' leadership, and roadblocks have intercepted hundreds of bombs, some concealed in ambulances, children's backpacks, and, most recently, a baby carriage. At every phase of Israel's counteroffensive, skeptics have worried that attempts to suppress terrorism would only encourage more of it. [Emphasis added.]

 

 

The price Israel has paid for its victory has been sobering. Arafat may be a pariah, but Israel is becoming one, too. Increasingly, the legitimacy of Jewish sovereignty is under attack. Former French Prime Minister Michel Rocard, for example, has called Israel's creation a "mistake." In Europe, an implicit "red-green-black" coalition of radical leftists, Islamists, and old-fashioned fascists has revived violent anti-Semitism. Along with the desecration of Jewish cemeteries by neo-Nazis and the assaults on Jews by Arab youth, some European left-wingers now sense a sympathetic climate in which to publicly indulge their anti-Semitism. In a recent interview with the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, Greek composer and left-wing activist Mikis Theodorakis denounced "the Jews" for their dominance of banks, U.S. foreign policy, and even the world's leading orchestras, adding that the Jews were "at the root of evil." In the Arab world, a culture of denial that repudiates the most basic facts of Jewish history--from the existence of the Jerusalem Temple to the existence of the gas chambers--has become mainstream in intellectual discourse and the media. Government TV stations in Egypt and Syria have produced dramatizations based on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Boycotts of Israel are multiplying: The nonaligned states recently voted to bar "settlers"--including Israelis who live in Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem--from their borders. Among young Israelis across the political spectrum, there's growing doubt about the country's future and widespread talk of emigration.

 

I would have to quote the entire text of the second link, so I wont bother. It is an excellent post, that predictably wont be read by too many, as it is too much work to click and devote the 90 seconds required to take on some enlightenment. It is a lesson on why we should be looking for positives when things are horrible, with no visible improvement on the horizon. It is so easy to sit comfortabley in front of your computer, in your air conditioned house or office, and criticize the world at large, when you could be doing something a little more productive, like caring about what we are trying to do, and about the men and women whose lives are on the line, DOING. Words like selfish, ignorant, and apathetic float through my head a lot and I feel like grinding my teeth sometimes. Why??? Go read those two links.

 

Thanks, JohnC.

[johnc]

Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi gave a speech today in front of a joint session of Congress. Granted, the speech was more positive then what the reality in Iraq is, but its a good speech by a person we desperately need to succeed.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,133279,00.html

 

And then, Kerry makes this statement:

 

Following is a transript of remarks made by Senator John Kerry today in Columbus, Ohio.

 

I want victory. I want to win. And I have a better plan to win than George Bush does. The president says that things are getting better in Iraq and we must just stay the same course. Well, I disagree. They're not getting better and we need to change the course to protect our troops and to win.

 

Before the war, the president said that there were lots of terrorists causing the trouble; that's why we had to go to war. Just yesterday he says to the American people, now that we are at war, that there are only a handful of terrorists. And yet only two days earlier Prime Minister Allawi said, That's not true, thousands of terrorists are crossing the borders and entering into Iraq. It has become a magnet for terrorism. And that is what Secretary of State Colin Powell said. We have an administration in disarray. The secretary of defense saying one thing and being corrected. The president saying one thing and being contradicted by the prime minister. The secretary of state saying one thing and being contradicted by the president. America needs leadership that tells the truth. George Bush just yesterday said, he was just -- the CIA was just guessing on Iraq. Just guessing, America? The CIA? They're not just guessing. They're giving the president of the United States their best judgment. It's called an analysis. And the president ought to read it and he ought to study it and he ought to respond to it. The president says, Just stay the course and everything will be fine. I laid out a plan in New York to win.

 

I laid out a plan which will help America protect our troops. We need to bring other allies to the table. The president skedaddled out of New York so quickly he barely had time to talk to any leaders. We need a summit. We need to bring people to the table. We need to behave like we are at war and respect the lives of our soldiers that are being lost because we are at war. They deserve better leadership. They deserve a mission with a plan that can succeed. A president's true test of leadership is how he responds when things are going wrong. You need to be prepared to tell the truth. And I think that a president who fails to admit his mistakes is a president who proves that he doesn't know how to make the course correct. A commander in chief's first obligation in time of war is to tell the truth, to be straight with our soldiers and our citizens. That's what we need today. I have a plan to make us successful, and I wish the president would implement that plan now. Happy to answer any questions.

 

QUESTION: Prime Minister Allawi told Congress today that democracy was taking hold in Iraq and that the terrorists there were on the defensive. Is he living in the same fantasy land as the president?

 

KERRY: I think the prime minister is, obviously, contradicting his own statement of a few days ago, where he said the terrorists are pouring into the country. The prime minister and the president are here, obviously, to put their best face on the policy. But the fact is that the CIA estimates, the reporting, the ground operations and the troops all tell a different story. Yesterday I read the report of a deputy director of the Provisional Coalition Authority. He's now returned to the United States. And his report was really pretty devastating. He wrote that we are losing the peace. He wrote that we are not getting the reconstruction aid out, that only 5 percent of the money has been spent. He wrote of the levels of unemployment and of the difficulties of people who are earning money throwing grenades at American soldiers.

 

Then he told Congress there were 95,000. He didn't tell the truth to the Congress. There were 5,000 -- 5,000. That's a disgrace. It's a disgrace that the secretary of defense doesn't tell the truth to the American people. And it's a disgrace that this president doesn't hold anybody in his administration accountable for failure. These are not small miscalculations. These are miscalculations which are costing lives, costing America's reputation in the world. These are miscalculations of judgment. And that's what we hire a president for, is to exercise the right judgment. I think this president has exercised the wrong judgment from day one, and that's why we need a change.

 

QUESTION: You criticized, to the AP, the president for retreating, I believe was your word, from Fallujah. Given the situation on the ground in Fallujah when there was an offensive there, when there was a rising civilian death toll, rising criticism among Arab media for our actions there, what would you have done differently?

 

KERRY: Let me tell you, I've said many times, I wouldn't have just done one thing differently in Iraq, I would have done almost everything differently. And when you people judge me, and the American people judge me on this, I want you to judge me on the full record. I stood in Fulton, Missouri, and I gave the president advice about what he needed to do. He didn't take it. I stood at Georgetown University a year and a half ago and I gave the president advice about what he needed to do. He didn't take it. I stood on the floor of the Senate and gave him advice about what he needed to do. He didn't take it. I've laid out a whole series of things I would have done that would have prevented Fallujah. Let me tell you, if the 4th Infantry Division and the diplomacy had been done with Turkey, you wouldn't have had a Fallujah. This president rushed to war, without a plan to win the peace.

 

And ask the military leaders. Go ask the military leaders. General Shinseki told this country how many troops we'd need. The president retired him early for telling the truth. That's why you have Fallujah. That's why you have a mess in Iraq. And that's not the leadership this nation deserves. Thank you all very much. Appreciate it.

 

I'm amazed at how incoherent and discombobulated this statement is. And instead of welcoming Allawi and supporting his efforts, Kerry is trying to throw him under the same bus that he's been trying to throw GWB under. I think Kerry has lost his mind.

[Tim240z]

From John's first link....interesting.......

Just in case you don't know what the authors are driving at, here's the next sentence.

In its victories and its defeats, Israel is a test case of what happens to a democracy forced to confront nonstop terrorism.

Israel's present may be our future. Best get used to it now.

[tannji]

this topic is predictably not as enticing as some of the others, not vague enough to rant on or take specious viewpoints on. I appreciated the links, and took a little upper from Ayad Allawi's speech, as biased as it may have been. Thanks again.

[Guest Aaron]

QUESTION: Prime Minister Allawi told Congress today that democracy was taking hold in Iraq and that the terrorists there were on the defensive. Is he living in the same fantasy land as the president?

 

Shouldn't the wording of this question convince everyone that the media is biased against the current administration?

[johnc]

Shouldn't the wording of this question convince everyone that the media is biased against the current administration?

 

We don't know who asked that question. It might have been a moderator, a member of the audience, or even John Edwards.

[Guest Aaron]

We don't know who asked that question. It might have been a moderator, a member of the audience, or even John Edwards.

 

Thats what I get for assuming.

[SportZ2]

Again, direct questions being asked and all I see is rambling about mistakes. He's really starting to scare me.

 

Kerry is in a great position, If he becomes president and he makes Iraq a better place with his 7 points to a better world (welcome back France, Germany and Russia-all is forgiven) he will be looked at as a great leader. If he fails in his 7 points he will blame it on the old administration and say that he never had a chance because of how deep a hole Bush had dug for him.

[Dan Baldwin]

Going into Iraq was a hopelessly retarded endeavour. Justification for it was total BULLSHIT. I take no solace in the fact that the administration's hopelessly naive schemes haven't profited them (and CERTAINLY not US) *nearly* as much as they thought it would. It just sucks all the way around, for everybody.

 

These guys are irresponsible ASSHOLES. Kerry may not get my vote [hell, he KNEW Bush was a flake and STILL voted to give him authority to go to into a needless, COSTLY (in human and $$ terms), and totally counterproductive war], but the Bush administration is clearly a bunch of satanic IDIOTS that should be removed. OBL must not be able to fricking BELIEVE it! We spend a relatively meager effort going after him, then spend 100s of BILLIONS making asses out of ourselves in the aftermath of getting rid of someone he probably hates as much as us! The terrorists have evil geniuses, and we have evil retards. Dang.

 

Vote Libertarian!

[Guest bluex_v1]

...For the record, not all people that consider themselves Libertarians feel or think this way.

[Guest Z-rific]

I just hate how Bush keeps linking the war against terrorism with Iraq. Until we invaded Iraq, there were no Iraqis involved in international terrorism at all. No car bombs, kidnappings of foreigners, etc. Now there are bombings and killings every day. And the situation is getting worse.

 

We should have spent the man hours and dollars going full throttle after Al Queda. Saddam was no threat to anybody but his own country. His military was crippled, he had no WMD, nothing. He was too busy spending his oil money on building palaces and statues of himself.

 

Are we now going to remove every ruthless dictator in the world, even at the cost of American lives and taxpayer money, just so we can say "The World is better of without (place name here)?

 

There is no way an American implemented democracy will stick in Iraq. And folks, Allawi is a Bush appointed mouthpiece. What do you expect him to say?

 

Unfortunately, the alternative to Bush is Kerry, who cant decide if he's coming or going, supportive or against. At least maybe he'll listen to our miltary leaders and not Cheney and Rumsfeld

[JMortensen]

Hussein was paying $25K to the family of every Palestinian suicide bomber.

[Dan Baldwin]

Killing how many Americans on American soil? Compare that with OBL/Al Queada. Iraq is a big screw-up priorities-wise. Besides, doesn't Israel have the means to defend itself? Evil amoral Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers vs. evil amoral Israeli helicopters launching missiles against old blind clerics walking out after their prayers, now THAT's a conflict I think we should stay the hell away from.

[JMortensen]

Evil amoral Palestinian suicide/homicide bombers vs. evil amoral Israeli helicopters launching missiles against old blind clerics walking out after their prayers, now THAT's a conflict I think we should stay the hell away from.

 

HEY HEY!!! WE AGREE AGAIN!!!

 

I was just pointing that out to show that Saddam was clearly supporting terrorism.

[SportZ2]

Stay the hell away from, we've been there since the beginning. We are Isreal. Without the US backing, that country is history. That is the main reason we are not liked in the Middle East and never will be. Jeez, what rock did some of you come out from under You really believe that Isreal is a stand alone country?

[JMortensen]

Yes, but both sides are unwilling to reconcile.

 

Hard line Palestinians are simply opposed to Israel's existence, hard line Israelis will not settle for anything less than borders on the Mediterranean and the Jordan river.

 

I'm not agreeing with calling both sides evil, but I think one side is going to have to kill the other for peace to exist, and I don't think we should be doing the killing. Maybe holding the rest of the world back so the two sides can deal with it themselves...

 

I'm also a little skeptical of the report that John shared the other day that said the fences have "won" the war against terrorism in Israel.

 

Israel as a standalone country... hmmm... how many American troops were present for the Six Days War???

[SportZ2]

Take away the ammo and what would they have fought with, bic lighters. Our tanks, our planes, etc.

[johnc]

Al Queda could not operate without state support and sponsorship. Valdis Krebs initial networking analysis of the 911 hijack team back in 2002 showed how terrorist cells work.

 

http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue7_4/krebs/

 

Further analysis by John Robb and others concluded that the networks and the support infrastructure necessary to operate required state support (mostly for training camps) and sponsorship once membership exceeded about 80 individuals.

 

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/04/mapping_terrori.html

 

There were a number of known terrorist training camps in Iraq:

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84291,00.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,779359,00.html

 

Al Queda operatives were trained in those camps inside Iraq according to numerous Iraq winesses. Iraq (under Saddam) WAS a training base for Al Queda, Iraq (under Saddam) DID provide financial and material resources to Al Queda, the PLO, Hamas, and other terrorist organizations.

 

Repeating a falsehood (Iraq did not support terrorists) does not make it true. That type of arguement is referred to as: Argumentum ad nauseam.