Do you believe this claim??

[Scottie-GNZ]

Making over 500 rwhp on a stock motor is not hard. Just a bigger turbo (more lag), more boost and C16 fuel. As long as detonation is avoided it will hold up. Most people struggle to make 300-350rwhp because they are using turbos that are too small and will only flow enough air for 300-350 rwhp.

Clifton, you are killing with this generic "bigger turbo means more lag" statement :D

 

I absolutely agree with you and what Alex said. "Most people struggle to make 300-350rwhp because they are using turbos that are too small and will only flow enough air for 300-350 rwhp"....and they are not running enough boost to make the HP, and the insistence on running pump gas, and the engine is not optimally tuned. I know people will look at my setup and dismiss it as not being a good comparison, but it actually is. I am running 26psi boost with a 66mm turbo and my bottom-end is stock except for ARP rod bolts (as per Alex) AND I am running hyperuetectic (sp?) pistons which some would say is a down-grade. My bottom-end was assembled in Dec '99! I run a C-16 mix at the track with no detonation and I could push harder, I just choose not to. Now on the street, I can barely go over 16psi with pump gas. Sure I could get it higher if I tuned it for higher boost on the street but I choose not to. I would say the difference between my pump gas/16psi setup and my race gas/26psi/more timing setup is about 150hp.

 

The beauty of a turbo engine is that you can make it a Jekyll/Hyde and do it safely, unless you just must have full boost on pump gas. I continue to be puzzled why folks spend thou$and$ to build a turbo car then strangle it at the track with pump gas and risk serious detonation on the street.

[Drax240z]

Well here is my philosophy.

 

I built the engine for my car as a street/autoX setup. The highest grade gasoline I have readily available (ie: pump gas) is 94 octane. My Z also happens to be my daily driver, so the ability to get 94 octane whenever (or wherever) I need it is important. So I choose to build my car around that limitation. Of course, being a daily driver the cost of the gasoline is a factor too. Regular (87octane) at 86cents/liter or supreme (94octane) at $1/liter. I could run C-16 at ~$3.50/liter or so.

 

I really believe that for a street car, you should build it to run on pump gas. If it is a track car, then fine, use race gas. If you have the ability (like scottie does) to run multiple levels of boost/timing depending on your fuel, that is even better.

 

Now if we are talking 600rwhp drag cars... run frickin' race gas!!!! Scottie is totally right here. No point in building a $6000 engine to get you in the 11's and cheap out on the gas.

[Guest Cronic]

I really enjoy the fact of running 11's, and 10's on pump gas. we have a local DSM guy here, Jerry, who runs consistant low 11's on pump gas in an AWD Mirage. He is the local DSM god around here. Everyone DSM goes to him for anything DSM.

 

Very intelligent guy. I also plan on making 450 on boost, and spraying a healthy shot on nitrous at the track. All on pump gas. Granted, Im limited by money, so it's a slow process. I did nearly break 400tq last week though. Going back this weekend to try to break 300whp/400wtq on the dyno, stock turbo. No nitrous. Pump gas.

[Clifton]

I also plan on making 450 on boost, and spraying a healthy shot on nitrous at the track. All on pump gas. Granted, Im limited by money, so it's a slow process. I did nearly break 400tq last week though. Going back this weekend to try to break 300whp/400wtq on the dyno, stock turbo. No nitrous. Pump gas.

 

If you would stop spending money on dyno time trying to blow your stock T3 up, that is running at the end of the map and get a decent turbo you would be close to making the 450 you want at the 20 psi you are already running on pump gas. Look at a map of a T3 60 trim. 34lbs/min

[Guest Cronic]

I know the map, and many others well. The limitations of it's efficiency are technically 28lbs/min, and that's right around 18psi on our engines. By fattening up the fuel curve a bit, and upping the boost to 20, 300whp is very seeable.

 

I don't plan on making 450 with the stock turbo. Asside from almost snaping the drive shaft on the dyno, I put down 399.9wtq @3000rpm on STOCK turbo. 20psi is where I stop, and that's all gravy. I pay 20 bucks for my time at the dyno. Which is far shy from the 500 dollars to rebuild my stock turbo into a 60trim t3/t4.

[Clifton]

I wasn't trying to offend you. Just trying to help you see the light . 28 lb/min is around 280hp at the crank. That maybe 18 psi on a 60 tirm T3 but 18 psi on a 60-1 or larger would gain you over 100 hp. I didn't think you were trying to make 450 on that turbo. It's just hard not not say something when alot of people want big power but at the same time think they can do it with a stock or small upgrade.

 

 

180(ci) X 7000(rpm) X .5 X .85 /1728 = 309 cfm

 

309 cfm X 2.22 (18 psi) = 685 cfm

 

685 cfm X .07 = 48 lbs/min.

[fl327]

Fastest L motor car Ive seen with my own eyes in real life was Hoover Chans Red Monster, 404@14psi pump gas. Race Gas and more boost hes getting numbers ilke 600 for sure. Second fastest is about 300hp stock internals maybe close to 400 now that its boosting 20psi. The intake and the exhaust is a restriction, if you have goals lower than either one its not hard to do with the stock bottom end, which will take 20psi tuned correctly, same with the stock headgasket, this isnt what I heard this is what Ive seen and experienced.

[Guest Cronic]

I understand that with a larger turbo, more gains per psi are available. One thing though 28lbs/min is right around 280hp at the wheels, not crank.

 

The upgrade Im going to do is a 60 trim t4 inducer. It's a turbo capable of well over 500whp. I plan to stick with 15psi on that, and see where Im at. If Im under 400whp, i'll raise it up.

 

Im sticking to 400whp until I get the money for pistons. Besides... 400whp + 2800lbs = low 12's with a bad driver.

[Guest Zcarsmakemyheadhurt]

Cron whats the exhaust set up going to be on this turbo?

[Guest Cronic]

Stock exhaust housing, I haven't decided on the wheel yet. Was thinking a P trim. I have a 3" mand. exhaust from the turbo back already.

 

Im slightly worried about running internal gate, however it's an easy fix to change if the boost starts creeping up on me.

[Guest Zcarsmakemyheadhurt]

Well I think your dealing with a bad mix on your wheel combinations. Putting a wheel as large as a TO4P in a stock T3 housing is never a good idea. At the largest I ever do is a stage V and even then I up the exhaust housing to a .82 T3. Your looking for more area in the exhaust then wheel for matched exhaust flow and a good balanced turbo.

[Guest Cronic]

I just don't want to be choking the turbo at higher boost levels.

I have a friend who's running a t68-1 Compressor housing with the stock .63 a/r exhaust, and a Q trim wheel. Internally gated.

 

This turbo was on a Starion, stock motor, and made wastegate boost (8psi) at 3400rpm. He drove it around for a few months like this, just testing out this grosse creation he had put together. He was very happy with it.

 

He worked for Majestic turbo here in Tampa for 6 years before they closed down, and worked with CMR Turbo here in Tampa for years later. Just so you don't think he's a complete noob to the turbo idea.

[Guest Zcarsmakemyheadhurt]

Well I don't like to think of anyone as a nob, I'm not that quick to pass judgement on anyone. Who am I to know what works for some people on there combinations. But I do know in my short 10 years of building turbos is wheel sizes and housing diameters and what fits in what. You would have to machine the hell out of a T3 housing to make it fit a TO4 Q trim wheel, I wouldn't trust the integrity of the housing and forget about performance, but again thats just my two cents. I had a housing casted for the L28's spacific, its a T3 flanged .70. I'm using it on a P wheel with a 62-1 on Mikes car with a stock cam, no need for any larger compressor and although I am tempted to step up on the exhaust housing because I know you make more power with exhaust flow, I'm saving it for a broader power band. Just two cents man, it really doesn't mean much.

[Guest Cronic]

I was just using him as a reference. Just because it has been done, and worked.... somewhat... doesn't mean it should be repeated. That was just one extreme that some of my friends have gone to.

 

A V wheel would probably be perfect for a t3/t4 60 trim.

[Guest Zcarsmakemyheadhurt]

Ya so far my favorit wheel combination is a stage V in a .82 exhaust with a TO4E .60 compressor, but they are so damn expensive to build.

[Guest Cronic]

Something that confused me... The B housing straight t4's produce more air flow then the E housing straight t4's. I thought that was strange.

 

I'm going to stick with the stock exhaust housing either way. It would prevent surging as well as flow enough for my 400whp goal and keep those temps low.

[frank280zx]

hehe ok that just rose my to be boost level

[Bernardd]

Ya so far my favorit wheel combination is a stage V in a .82 exhaust with a TO4E .60 compressor, but they are so damn expensive to build.

 

Alex, how do you find the lag on a setup like that? I've had the v trim wheel with a stock exhaust housing and wheel that would hit full boost pretty much instantly anything above 2500. Currently I'm running a 55lb/hr t04b wheel with a .82 ar stage 3 wheel. I don't get full boost until around 4k. The power is higher for sure but the lag bugs me. I don't rev my engine beyond 6k. I've been have swingvalve problems that will be addressed with a new external wastegate as well. Perhaps that was the problem. I'm just curious at what rpm a stage V would hit full boost.

Bernard

[Guest Cronic]

Im not a fan of the larger 82 housing. With any wheel in it.

The .63 stage V will support plenty of power with out excess manifold pressure. Unless I was going for 600 on boost I wouldn't worry about using an 82. The Honda's around here are making 600 on boost with 63 a/r, and with much smaller 2.0L engines.