Odd Setup Questions

[zemus]

Ok my last thread I started was created regarding an 84 Maxima I was looking to get. I have reccently changed my mind and decided to get a 240z. I found the one I want and have decided everything that is going to go on it. But one thing still vex's me, I really want to run 10kg springs in front and 11kg in rear (eq to est f/560lb r/616lb). I am building this car for drifting and road racing. Yes yes Ive noticed that drifting is kinda taboo on this forum, ill take the flames as they come.

 

Anyways, I need to know if anyone is running this extreme of a setup on their cars, and what strut combo you are running along with this. Also I am looking to run a 10 point cage with reinforced Strut housings. But im not sure what struts can handle that high of a springrate.

 

I have looked into the Arizona Z Car setup, the 1500$ per corner racing setup, and I know they offer a 500lb spring, but I have yet to find anyone who runs an extreme of a setup (and yes ive searched here and read many many posts).

 

Can anyone help me with this?

[260DET]

Probably a good idea to check the more drifting orientated forums.

 

One comment though, with those spring rates you certainly will need a full 'roll cage', probably more like a tubular sub-chassis, if you get my drift, pun intended The 240Z has a relatively flexible body, springs at those rates will just force the body to flex. So you are going to have to strengthen it, not merly install a roll cage.

 

One of the reasons why the Silvia makes a good drift car is its stiff body, they make a handy race car for the same reason.

 

On the subject of shocks, check with Koni.

[CruxGNZ]

John Coffey can help you with this. There is NO aftermarket shock for the 240Z that will keep up with those spring rates. You will need custom made shocks, which are very pricey. Also, in such a light car, those spring rates will be like having no suspension at all.

 

!M!

[zemus]

I would normaly say that, but a Toyota AE86 corrolla, on the d1 cars, they run those setups more like 9k and 7k rear, but that car is alot lessweight than s30.

 

So what is the stiffest you have ever seen a springrate go and no have to get totally custom shocks?

 

Thanks for the imput

[johnc]

I would normaly say that, but a Toyota AE86 corrolla, on the d1 cars, they run those setups more like 9k and 7k rear, but that car is alot lessweight than s30.

So what is the stiffest you have ever seen a springrate go and no have to get totally custom shocks?

 

The Koni 8610-1149s can got to about 375 lb. in. and I think there's a Bilstein shock that is similar.

 

I have to ask a more fundamental question though: Why are you so focused on a specific spring rate number? Although I'm not a drifting suspensions setup expert I do autocross and road race with Taka Ano and he sets up his drift cars very similar to his road race setups.

[quicker240]

I am interested in drifting also.I already have the arizona setup on my car and even with 250lb springs it is pretty stiff.I too have many years of autocrossing experience and I can very much see how the setups would be similar.If you have no experience drifting(which I dont),I would recommend some autocrossing to you.Get a feel for having the car crossed up a bit in a controlled environment,then make some spring and suspension choices based on what you learn there.I dont think you'll get flamed here for having an interest in this new venue.It looks like damn big fun to me,if not a bit expensive for tires that I'm guessing wont last very long.I from experience would think 300-350 lb spring rates would be more than adequate,as well as an adjustable rear sway bar setup.How much slip the rear tires give will also be a determining factor.Dont get hung up on the numbers just because someone else is using them.You will find that your taste is your own.

[260DET]

The reason why I mentioned the Silvia is that for drifting they use very heavy springs, way more than 300 lb, and the body seems stiff enough to handle such loadings. The Z body simply can't do that, not without substantial reinforcement anyway.

[Mikelly]

Uh I'm with John, Why are you focused on those numbers?

 

I HAD a set of 500 pound springs given to me years ago for my Z... Back in 1990-91 timeframe, and I have no idea who made them or why... i had them on the car for a little over a year and we noticed a LOT of structural problems with that car when i took them off. i'd recommend you do a LOT of research... those springs will be MUCH too stiff.

 

I'd also recommend you talk to some of the guys who are road racing 240-280 Zs... They will be your best bet for info on what works... You MUST be chassis specific when building a car, and especially the Zcar.

Mike

[zemus]

Awesome, thank you so much for all the responces. I know of drift setups usualy run, and maily it depends on your style of driving, this is what ive noticed. Theres:

 

Power

Balanced

Braking

 

Power- Will usualy use heavyer springs in the back, and a little bit softer in the back, so that they use mainly power to controll the car around the corner. The reason its softer in the back is because it is easyer to regain controll while in a slide.

 

Balanced- Balanced will usualy use equal front and rear spring rates. This setup is nice for a car that is TOTALY balanced brakes and everything, meaning if it is setup perfect, you should be able to use power while drifting, and be just as affective as the power setup. And at the same time be able to use weight transfer (feint tech) and add braking to slide the car, or get it sliding at a high speed. This setup is the best is you have a car setup just right, and can be one of the best if you use alot of diffrent ways of sliding your car.

 

Braking- Braking runs heavy rears and softer fronts. This setup is QUITE squirrly. You use the rear brakes and weight transfer to brake the rear tires loose. Because of the heavy spring rates in the rear it brakes loose easy, and once you get it sideways by just using the footbrake you can mix in throttle controll to controll it around the corner. Down side of this setup it is somtimes hard to get back strait because the rear just wants to stay out because of the heavy springrate in the rear.

 

The setup I really wanted was braking because that usualy how I run it in my S13, I have 9kg in front and 7kg in back. I can do braking drifts, but Id like it stiffer so that I could do them better, mixing in the feint technique fixs alot of things. (A tech of swaying the car right to left till you feel the car losing traction in the rear, and at that point you can choose to gas it or downshift or brake, all of which will get you sideways).

 

Also regarding the tire issue, usualy drifters when they just start trun streached tires. Meaning you throw a 205/60/15 all season on a 8.5" wide wheel. Which means you have a skinny tire with VERY LITTLE tirewall flex making it Extreammly easy to get the car sideways. Seeing as tire flex is usualy gives you that mean recoil or kickback when you get sideways. This season I run though 6 sets of tires, granted 5 sets where basicly free seeing as I got them for time places that dident want them anymore.

 

Maybe its just im stuck on the S13 style of tuning when Tuning the Z. Usualy s13 people dont run hardcore sway bars. Maybe instead of a CRAZY springrate, I should look into swaybars, and just run somthing like 350lbs eather all around, and get an adjustable rear swaybar so that I can controll my setup. I've been looking into race car setups, and this seems to be what they usualy do, which I think ill try.

 

Also the reason I was stuck on springrates is ive been looking at pro. D1 (drift series of racing) And they run 9kg all the way up to 22kg on some of their cars. Granted the 22kg

is in a SC300, but the point still stands, I guess as stiff as you can go without ripping your chassie in half is the best from what I can tell.

 

Quicker240- I agree that if you are just starting drifting a Autocross setup is best, or even stock, you need to learn how to use weight transfer and the most ruthless and difficult setup is stock. But just remember, when you change the suspention, you need to learn all over again, everything changes. The BIGGEST diffrence ive felt with the s13 is getting a Clutch type aftermarket LSD (Tomie Trax 2 way). I would get that before you do anything, it enables you to controll the car with AMAZING ease.

 

But yea, sorry I dident respond early.

 

Thanks alot for all the help, and I hope I explained myself and my reasons for wanting to run the setup that I mentioned.

 

-Matt

[johnc]

Ultimately what those of us who have decades of experience tuning the S30 suspension are trying to tell you is:

 

What works on other, more modern cars, does not work on the S30!

 

An S30 can be a great drift car because their balance is almost perfect and they can be driven tail out very easily. I know, I've done it many times, sometimes at speeds over 100 mph.

 

Again, when tuning a suspension for a particular car for a particular type of motorsports, don't compare anything with cars that have different suspension designs.

[zemus]

Right, ive relized this, thats why I stated that I need to stop comparing them to s13 and other drift cars with a more modern chassie. Ive come to the impression that possably I need to drive a S30 with a nice 300lb or 250lb suspention and see how it works for me.

[johnc]

I need to drive a S30 with a nice 300lb or 250lb suspention and see how it works for me.

 

With about 250 horsepower (or more) you'll love it! Plus, you'll stand out from all the other cars running and that L6 will sound better then most any other engine out there. But, that's just one person's very biased opinion...

[Guest 240zJake]

that L6 will sound better then most any other engine out there. But, that's just one person's very biased opinion...

 

Make that two

[zemus]

Yes, I totaly agree with that. To bad im in MN, I rarly see Zs around here. Unless their z31,z32,z33. S30s are RARE in good shape around here.

 

Also just to kinda stay on topic, with wheels, do you any of you guys go with like crazy offsets, ive noticed that most Z wheels that you guys put on fit correctly, which I love. On my s13 I run -27 offset on an 8.5 wheel, but ive noticed lots of bump steer, is this just as much of a problem with the Z, or less? I loved runnig those in front the best, the controll while drifting was AMAZING, The extra track in the front helped alot for the low speed stuff. Just wondering what you guys would run with such a nice setup.

 

Also to add to the mix (maybe I shouldent have all of this in one thread but....) Which see coilovers seem to perform the best. I just checked out your site JohnC, your coils look very very nice, I am wondering if you will at one point offer Adjustable front and Rear arms somwhat like AZC?

 

Again, thanks for the imput

[johnc]

On my s13 I run -27 offset on an 8.5 wheel, but ive noticed lots of bump steer, is this just as much of a problem with the Z, or less? I loved runnig those in front the best, the controll while drifting was AMAZING, The extra track in the front helped alot for the low speed stuff. Just wondering what you guys would run with such a nice setup.

 

The stock and most aftermarket S30 wheels are spec'd with zero offset. You can run negative offset but it tends the exacerbate the inherent bumpsteer problem that already exists in lowered S30s. Search this site using "bumpsteer" and you'll learn all you ever need to know.

 

I just checked out your site JohnC, your coils look very very nice, I am wondering if you will at one point offer Adjustable front and Rear arms somwhat like AZC?

 

Thanks. I probably won't be offering offset front and rear control arms because I'm one of the grumpy old guys that feel there's no need for them. Besides, the parts Dave sells at Arizona Z Car are good and I probably couldn't improve on them in any significant way.