what ecu's work best

[Rumnhammer]

We sourced the Apex i from our local tuner Mid atlantic motorsports, and yes they are getting expensive now that the no longer make them.

The power fc is a full stand alone that plugs into the stock wiring harness in place of the stock ecu. Pretty much the easiest plug and play out there, with a good base map to get you going. It is a little dated, and with the basic fc you need to retain the MAF, but there is a version that lets you ditch the MAF.

The other disadvantage of the basic one, is that you need to program using the commander and the thumb action required gets a bit tedious.

The more advanced version is able to connect and tune via a laptop.

Chris Rummel

[Canadianz]

Another question about ecu's, has anyone used any of the Greddy E-manage systems on an RB. I have heard good things from skylinesdownunder.com just wondering what thoughts any one else might have on this. For their price they seem like a pretty darn good deal, lap top interface as well as "plug and play" with the existing loom and sensors.

 

Second how important is it to switch to a blow through MAF or even to a MAP sensor? I know that a lot of people will move the MAF's closer to the throttle body in order to get rid of the problems associated with BOV's and stumbling etc. Next there is the other camp who want to remove the MAFs all together switching to the MAP sensors. Are MAPs inherently more accurate from a sensor standpoint or is it because MAF's are a major restriction ?

 

Basically should I be looking for a MAP based ECU or should I not worry about it? My car has a stock block with a bigger turbo, intake manifold and an exhaust. Simple bolt ons, really and no internal work.

I want to keep my car nice and streetable, maby with cams and some big injectors once everything is all broken in at the stock settings.

 

A bit of a ramble I know, hopefully some of these questions can help other people too .

 

Thanks

 

Chris and Rob Crombie

[getoffmyinternet]

Basically I'm trying to figure out if there is one method that I can use and stick with pretty much for the duration of owning my car. I don't want to get just what works now and then keep "upgrading" in the future or come to a wall of sorts. That's why I really like the idea of the power fc being able to phase with a laptop, but if stock ecu is fully adjustable that may be just about the same thing in the end. But the power fc ecu plugs right into the rb harness? I was unaware of that--I thought I would have to redo my wiring again to go that route!

 

Also, the word is that outsourcing the efi is a way to unlock some power too, but I wonder if getting the power fc, or just being able to fully tune the stock system will make something like msd ignition unnecessary. If I recall correctly, it was in a different thread that someone mentioned an ems system that had a really strong ignition feature which was like using an msd setup etc. but I don't know if that suggests the other ems systems leave you worse off or not... I guess it's pretty much all down to hearsay.

 

 

Speaking of hearsay, I also heard that the stock mafs are good to about 600hp (300 each) but what was unclear was whether it was actually the mafs that freak out with more air than that, or the ecu that can't handle the signal properly (tuned or untuned). Any experts on the subject? If it's a pure flow restriction issue, I can't imagine the stock mafs making that much of a bottleneck, unless of course you are using 4" pipes and a huge turbo or something. On the stock turbos however, the inlet itself is the narrowest point at something like 2.25" so the maf sizes themselves seem to be somewhat of a moot point.

 

My understanding is that in map v. maf, the actual precision of each is pretty much a tie, although map I guess would be simpler in form and function. I wouldn't know too much about the position of the mafs in relation to bov's affecting their reading... Ass end bov's seem to be a bit of an overkill to me--like a redundancy that is theoretically unnecessary if the rest of the mechanics is rigged right. It's like how people have ridiculously high flow fuel pumps, only to require an expensive pressure regulator that cuts it way down before the rail; sounds a little counterintuitive to me. But correct me if I'm wrong on the bov situation.

[Canadianz]

Also, the word is that outsourcing the efi is a way to unlock some power too, but I wonder if getting the power fc, or just being able to fully tune the stock system will make something like msd ignition unnecessary. If I recall correctly, it was in a different thread that someone mentioned an ems system that had a really strong ignition feature which was like using an msd setup etc. but I don't know if that suggests the other ems systems leave you worse off or not... I guess it's pretty much all down to hearsay.

Not too sure what you mean by out sourcing, most good EMS systems if they are a standalone totally replace the stock ecu, and send out signal to drive the coil-on-plug ignition system that RB's have. Im not sure why somebody would want to use something like an MSD ignition box? Im not sure what part your talking about here. Defiantly though power can be made even on a stock system with a good tune..

 

Speaking of hearsay, I also heard that the stock mafs are good to about 600hp (300 each) but what was unclear was whether it was actually the mafs that freak out with more air than that, or the ecu that can't handle the signal properly (tuned or untuned). Any experts on the subject? If it's a pure flow restriction issue, I can't imagine the stock mafs making that much of a bottleneck, unless of course you are using 4" pipes and a huge turbo or something. On the stock turbos however, the inlet itself is the narrowest point at something like 2.25" so the maf sizes themselves seem to be somewhat of a moot point.

Trying to figure out the same thing man . . .

 

 

About BOV's some people will experience stumbling when they use a to atmosphere BOV dump, because a portion of the already metered air is lost and never reaches the engine. People get around this by placing the MAF's closer to the intake plenum and after the BOV's which means things need to be retuned as the maf is reading pressurized air as opposed to ambient pressure.

[Racinjitter]

On the topic of ECU's, I have heard that people are having trouble with the AEM systems, something to do with the CAS sensors. Is this a relevant issue when thinking about buying them? Also has anybody used or have experience with the Wolf500 EMS systems, I have heard good things . . .

 

I haven't had any problems with my V500. I added a few wires to the existing harness, and timing was set with no problems. I added in the wires for the IAT and for the fan controllers. The base map was uber rich but ran good enough to get to the dyno. I changed out the plugs as soon as the car cooled down while at the dyno, where it is currently.

 

I tried the Wolf V500 for the RBZ and didn't have any luck with it. I got the "plug and play" for the RB25DET and it was that in name only. It didn't come with any base map installed, and the only plug and play thing about it was the plug that plugs it into the stock wiring harness. I tried everything in my ability to get the timing varified (in sync with the engine) and gave up took it to our local RB expert tuner and he had the car for 4 months before he gave up trying to get the timing varified too. I had a lot of help from Ron Tyler including him emailing me a base map he got from Wolf. Ron Tyler is a fantastic guy to deal with so this is nothing negative against him, He did everything humanly possible to help me with this thing, but Wolf leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to support and instructions with this thing. When i buy something that is advertised as plug and play I expect it to be that, and include at the very least a base map for the car it is supposed to be pluging and playing with.

They also need to have proper instructions either with the unit or a video online to show EXACTLY how to verifiy the timing, because unless you get past this step you cannot continue getting the car running. I would suggest that wolf takes a look at the MegaSquirt website (actually DIYautotune) as they have a very outstanding video posted online that walks you through step by step with getting the timing verified.

Chris Rummel

 

I also have the "plug and play" version for the rb25det. How long ago did you have these issues? Do you have a series 1 or 2? Just wondering. If you still have your base map from the rb25, do you want to sent it to me? Or do you want me to send you my map? For S&G?

[RTz]

Thanks Rumnhammer for the pleasant words. I know we had some communication difficulties, and for that I publicly apologize.

 

The unfortunate truth is that you got into the V500 very early and base maps hadn't been established yet. Another contributing factor is that Wolf never advertised V500 as pug N play. They were (and still are) advertised as 'direct-fit'. Today, you can buy a V500 with an RB map that's not too far off.

 

Thanks Chris for some really concrete information to add to this thread.

 

I'd like to add my own 'concrete' experiences.

 

First, some of you know that, until recently, I was a Wolf dealer. I've been involved in a number of Wolf installation's, V4 and V500.

 

Make no mistake, Chris's report of documentation is an understatement. There isn't 5 pages worth reading. Its crap. What I know about these systems I've either learned first hand, through direct communication with Wolfs team, or other dealers. Lead tech. called me a couple weeks ago and we had a nice chat. This was one of the key topics. I'm probably guilty of being the biggest thorn in their bush. I'm sure they're getting tired of my tantrums.

 

However, I've had the opportunity to be involved with a number of EMS's. Not one is 'perfect'. They all have issues. Every one has something I wish they'd do differently.

 

With significant brevity...

 

Wolf's weaknesses... no documentation and initial start-up can be daunting. This is partly due to the flexible nature. Its a trade off, like most things. If you buy a Wolf system, buy from a dealer you trust will provide adequate support.

 

Wolf's strengths... brilliantly easy to tune and tune with consistency (extremely important for high specific output). Flexibility beyond most users imagination (including my own). Exceptional reliability and daily driver friendliness (best I've yet witnessed).

 

Every system has trade-offs. Take your time shopping. There is no best.

[Bernardd]

Speaking of hearsay, I also heard that the stock mafs are good to about 600hp (300 each) but what was unclear was whether it was actually the mafs that freak out with more air than that, or the ecu that can't handle the signal properly (tuned or untuned). Any experts on the subject? If it's a pure flow restriction issue, I can't imagine the stock mafs making that much of a bottleneck, unless of course you are using 4" pipes and a huge turbo or something. On the stock turbos however, the inlet itself is the narrowest point at something like 2.25" so the maf sizes themselves seem to be somewhat of a moot point.

 

The stock mafs max out around 450hp give or take. They can be easily modified by removing the round piping portion of the sensor, then installing it into a larger pipe such as 3". Doing that with about 500whp we were seeing 4.2vdc from the sensors. You can also use wasted spark coilpacks from GM for ignition with some small mods to the wiring. 700cc injectors are no problem for a smooth idle.

 

If you're going to tune the car on your own make very sure you know or are willing to learn your ecu of choice entirely or better yet go to a local shop and use the ecu they recommend in case they need to tune it for you if you run into problems.

[Rumnhammer]

Correct, we did get into the Wolf V500 early, in fact ours was probably one of the first ones shipped i'd wager, since they anounced it in November 06 and we recieved it in January 07. Yes back then it came with no map on it at all, good to hear that you can now get it with a base map, that is a huge step forward for them, now all they need to do is post a set of better instructions and perhaps a video for the timing verification and they will be set. The Wolf is a very powerful and flexable system, it has more features then we really needed or really wanted to set up. One of the main reasons we were interested in it in the first place is because it got rid of the MAF and had a built in MAP sensor, that you needed to pay extra for on the Power FC. For our purposes though, the power FC is more of what we were looking for in this application.

If anybody is interested this V500 is for sale by owner and also has the Dash tuning display included with it. I'm sure you could get a good deal on it. Then you can contact Racinjitter and get a good base map for it.

If anyone is interested shoot me a pm and check with the owner to see how much he wants for it.

The power fc is really great, only two real problems with it, one its out of production now, and two is the time involved with tuning it using the commander. it also doesnt' have a lot of the features such as wideband tuning or auto tune etc that the more current systems have, but if you are interested in something to get you going easy and still get a good tune its great.

If you are looking for a stand alone at a good price you can always look to the Mega squirt, it is a bit more DIY then most, but you can get a version that does every thing that the more expensive systems do for a very reasonable price.

Chris Rummel

[BirdmanZ]

If I had to do it over again, I would probably choose the AEM EMS. I am very happy with the Power FC that I am using but it does lack in some areas. The most obvious being the fact that using the commander to tune it sucks! The FC-Datalogit is a must to tune these but costs an additional $350-$400. It also lacks the ability to have more than one map stored on it. The AEM unit uses windows based software, has the ability to use anti-lag, and can control individual cylinder fuel and timing values. For us RB guys this can prove to be very useful as cylinder 6 has a tendency to run leaner/hotter.

[getoffmyinternet]

I just meant getting rid of the stock igniter and coils. I've heard a standalone ignition such as msd could provide up to an extra 50hp, especially if you've upgraded the injectors or done any other tunes I imagine due to the stock igniter being somewhat limited in its capabilities.

[Racinjitter]

I just meant getting rid of the stock igniter and coils.

 

As long as you have an external igniter, Series 1 rb25det or whatever, you can change over to a grand national coil pack. I am working on my car to see if my ls1 coils will work with the stock ecu. I will let you know by the end of the week.

[synthtk]

When I finally get to exhaust I'll be taking everyone's opinions on what route to go, because I really have no idea and I don't want to spend all this time and money to end up with something that sounds pathetic or anything. 3" exhaust would be about the sum of the two turbo outlet sizes, but I don't have an opinion on single versus dual yet. There's not a whole lot of room down there either. I guess the idea is to unleash the true sound of the rb, somewhere in the middle of a scale of 1-100, 1 being rat rod and 100 being fart can.

 

You can build yourself a single exit 3.5" exhaust using parts from summit for under $300, I had a thread about the one I built awhile back, its pretty easy as its basically a straight shot back.

 

I just wanna know how the ls7 is supposed to get 25 highway...

 

In my old C6 w/ the LS2 and T56 transmission @ 80mph the engine was about 1800 rpm in 6th gear. That is the secret I would get anywhere from 20-40mpg according to the instantaneous mpg readout on the freeway, the longer you cruise on the freeway and don't stomp on it the better mpg ya got.

 

I've also heard that AEM was going to release a package for the rb and did so quite a while ago, but I have yet to find it.

 

I have the AEM w/ MAP configuration and love it, I am still getting used to the software and will have it professionally tuned at some point but its easy enough to become familiar with to do the basic tuning off the base maps (which are pretty darn good) and get yourself in trouble. Currently I am trying to get the stock boost solenoid to to be controlled by the EMS to do gear/load or rpm regulated boost but can not get it to go over 1 bar for the life of me... so back to the manual controller for now.

[triple B]

Another question about ecu's, has anyone used any of the Greddy E-manage systems on an RB. I have heard good things from skylinesdownunder.com just wondering what thoughts any one else might have on this. For their price they seem like a pretty darn good deal, lap top interface as well as "plug and play" with the existing loom and sensors.

 

 

i am going to be running the e manage ultimate. i am in process with getting the wiring all done and building the engine so it may be a while before i can give feedback

 

anybody else tried one of these?

[Canadianz]

Thanks for all the contributions ! This is turning out to be a really cool thread. Now time for another question! Who is still using the idle control and if you have deleted it, I think JerryB did, what was the startup/ drivability like ?

 

Thanks guys !

 

 

Chris

[getoffmyinternet]

You can build yourself a single exit 3.5" exhaust using parts from summit for under $300

 

Really? How does that setup sound? Magnas might be a little loud for me though. I saw your album, but I don't have the downpipe. I guess that wouldn't cost TOO much extra. A bit of work though. I'll see what a shop charges for the heck of it.

 

In my old C6 w/ the LS2 and T56 transmission @ 80mph the engine was about 1800 rpm in 6th gear

 

Actually I heard that they also have cylinders on demand now. I didn't know gm ever started that. I thought it was just the newer mopar so-called hemis.

 

Currently I am trying to get the stock boost solenoid to to be controlled by the EMS to do gear/load or rpm regulated boost but can not get it to go over 1 bar for the life of me

 

Don't you still have the stock t25s? I would be deathly afraid to boost that high, unless you have the steel turbine version that they used on the nurspecs. Especially since mine is an r32.

[getoffmyinternet]

Thanks for all the contributions ! This is turning out to be a really cool thread. Now time for another question! Who is still using the idle control and if you have deleted it, I think JerryB did, what was the startup/ drivability like ?

 

I don't want to sound like a hypocrite, but isn't this thread about ecu's or something?

 

I asked about getting rid of the aac, and I think it was jerryb that told me he got rid of it, the only complications being on a really really cold morning, which I disregarded , and snap idle--something to do with turbo dump I guess--where he would have to feather the gas a little to keep it from dying for a second. I just opted to leave mine in for now at least.

[Canadianz]

I can see what your saying, I should have said " who is using a standalone and the idle air control". I have heard that people can tune around it for start up etc. Just wanted some more input as not all of the standalones support idle air. Or is the idle air even a concern once the switch to a standalone is made ? I should have been more careful in my wording !

[synthtk]

I think the car sounds pretty good, you could always toss another round bullet under the car to make it a bit quieter. I only really used the flanges from the stock downpipe at this point and a section of flex, but you can easily make flanges and get a flex piece. The downpipes don't use a donut to the turbo it is just a flat gasket, I used a set of old gaskets I had in my tool chest from my old Z32TT

 

Really? How does that setup sound? Magnas might be a little loud for me though. I saw your album, but I don't have the downpipe. I guess that wouldn't cost TOO much extra. A bit of work though. I'll see what a shop charges for the heck of it.

 

I do not think any of the LS series at least in the vettes are variable cyl at this point, mine for sure wasn't and was rated 18city 28highway. The engine was seriously a torque monster

 

Actually I heard that they also have cylinders on demand now. I didn't know gm ever started that. I thought it was just the newer mopar so-called hemis.

 

I still have the stockers, I figured I want to upgrade turbos anyway....soooo why not help them along in their trip to the great beyond?

 

 

Don't you still have the stock t25s? I would be deathly afraid to boost that high, unless you have the steel turbine version that they used on the nurspecs. Especially since mine is an r32.

[synthtk]

On the topic of ECU's, I have heard that people are having trouble with the AEM systems, something to do with the CAS sensors. Is this a relevant issue when thinking about buying them? Also has anybody used or have experience with the Wolf500 EMS systems, I have heard good things . . .

 

There was a pretty lenghthy thread on the AEM and CAS issue awhile back, with a lot of people chiming in. AEM does have a fix for cars with the issue in the form of a CAS wheel with a reduced number of slots, and I believe a few other vendors have similar discs. Also many people chimed in to state that this issue is evident on more than just the AEM EMS and seems to be an issue on any high hp high rpm car. I personally have not had any issues with my car and the EMS but at the moment the engine is stock and I am only reving it a bit beyond 8K.

[getoffmyinternet]

I was totally kidding! It is just as valid a question as any.

 

We'll have to find people with these respective management systems who have actually done away with some of the nonstandard engine components or emissions crap to see how theirs handle. I guess it would depend on the brain itself, but I don't know that the stock ecu itself is particularly flawed in sluggish management response or anything to make it handle getting rid of something like idle air any worse than an aftermarket ecu would. Maybe the others manage at a higher idle or simply enforce a slower engine deceleration regardless of how quickly you pull back on the throttle... I never really thought about the ramifications of using an aftermarket ems that isn't designed to use all the existing components, like with a generic one harness fits all type fit. Could be dire indeed, or at least interesting to install and tune.