tube80z Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Joe's has them for $1.25 each for 1.5, 1.625, and 1.75" tube sizes. They fit 70-90 degree angles, so you might have to trim it to fit another angle, but I really can't imagine them being too much cheaper... Well I got hosed on the bag I bought then I really only make the large ones I need, like where the A-pillar bar bends near the door, another idea for your gusset party. I've also seen them done where the halo meets the b-pillar. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 12, 2007 Author Share Posted April 12, 2007 I'd like to hear your opinion on the gusseting issue. Is too much not enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Mittler Brothers Machine / Tanner Racing Products same guys. 25 count bag of 16g. taco-gussets #40312 = $41.50 + shipping. http://www.tannerracing.com/ click on the Chassis Acc. tab, then scroll to the bottom of the page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 12, 2007 Author Share Posted April 12, 2007 Strut tower bracing is next up. I wanted to do a V bar from the towers to the middle of the dash bar. That part is tacked in now (pics below). I found that I had to cut oddly sized holes to get the bars through the cowl area and make them meet in the center, and I think this is going to be quite a pain in the ass to patch. My best idea so far is to cut the inside of the cowl so that there is one big wide hole that both bars come through. Then I'll make a center piece to patch the hole with 24 gauge sheet (easy to bend and form to the weird shape going on here, then I'll make some .060" plates to attach to the firewall side. I'll also need to patch the fresh air vent on the passenger side. It was in the way so I had to remove it as well. I'm not looking forward to this task of patching these weird holes on a weird complex curved surface. Anyone have a better or easier idea for me than a big ol patch in the interior? Also, looking at this now, I am inclined to NOT do bars from the struts to the A pillar dash bar intersection. I still feel like they would help, but I'm wondering if they're worth the hassle. The area of the cowl I'd have to cut through is an even weirder shape than the center part... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 12, 2007 Author Share Posted April 12, 2007 Thinking about this some more just now I'm thinking bj's bracing to the firewall then at an angle to the strut tower looks pretty good, as that would eliminate all this hassle with the cowl area... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHale_510 Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Didn't you cut a flap, fold up, then rebend back and weld the roof area for the halo bar? Couldn't a similar technique work for you on these odd angle firewall cutouts? Then again, splitting the pieces you have cut out in "half", clearancing for the angled bars, then piecing them back in ought to resolve many of the odd angles. I have had several cage builders that have done lots of hard core off road stuff all tell me not to gusset the cage to the body nearly as much as I wanted to do. A really tight fit and minimal interconnects is much better than all those fancy drilled gusset plates. They feel that lots of sheet metal gusset welding is weak and it all cracks apart. They generally stitch weld sheet metal interconnects rather than continuous weld them for the same reasons. Their stuff sees a lot more vibration and wear than a Porsche roadracer I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHale_510 Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 The Friselle car is nearby in Scotts Valley. I got to look at it last week. The A pillar braces are mounted very high, just under the hood. Pretty much seem to just intersect the dash bar at the bend, the strut tower at the very top. The vent areas are very low. The clutch and brake masters fit under this bar on the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 12, 2007 Author Share Posted April 12, 2007 Didn't you cut a flap, fold up, then rebend back and weld the roof area for the halo bar? Couldn't a similar technique work for you on these odd angle firewall cutouts? Not really. I just grabbed the sheet metal flange that the weatherstrip hooks onto and bent it out of the way. I haven't bent it back yet, but at worst a hammer and dolly should make pretty quick work of it. Then again, splitting the pieces you have cut out in "half", clearancing for the angled bars, then piecing them back in ought to resolve many of the odd angles. I didn't make one big square cut, unfortunately. I was trying to get by with the smallest hole I could possibly make (believe it or not) so I cut the hole, then cut it bigger, then cut it bigger still. I can't reassemble all that stuff anymore. It would be more of a pain than just patching it. I have had several cage builders that have done lots of hard core off road stuff all tell me not to gusset the cage to the body nearly as much as I wanted to do. A really tight fit and minimal interconnects is much better than all those fancy drilled gusset plates. They feel that lots of sheet metal gusset welding is weak and it all cracks apart. They generally stitch weld sheet metal interconnects rather than continuous weld them for the same reasons. Their stuff sees a lot more vibration and wear than a Porsche roadracer I guess. Yeah, I would definitely stitch rather than seam weld all that stuff. At present I'm leaning towards several small .060" gussets rather than the long sheet gussets with the flanged holes. I haven't absolutely decided one way or the other, but that's where I'm leaning at the present. The Friselle car is nearby in Scotts Valley. I got to look at it last week. The A pillar braces are mounted very high, just under the hood. Pretty much seem to just intersect the dash bar at the bend, the strut tower at the very top. The vent areas are very low. The clutch and brake masters fit under this bar on the left. That might be a good one to learn from. I still have the .pdf that they were using to sell that car, I'll check it for pictures of this area. I don't think it would be hard to get the bar in that position, its again just going to be a pain to patch the cowl and firewall. Thanks for the feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 Nice work guys! Thanks for documenting your work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 13, 2007 Author Share Posted April 13, 2007 Alright, I emailed Cary about this, he gave me some info and I made a decision as to the A pillar bars. I'm not going to do the additional braces. As Cary pointed out, it's a bit redundant with the upper frame rail doing basically the same thing, and I've already reinforced the upper frame rails, so I think it's not going to be worth the effort. So today I'll finish welding the strut tower V and start patching. FWIW I looked at the Frisselle car pictures and it's tough to see exactly what is going on because the dash covers up the cage where it comes through the firewall, but it looks pretty bizarre. It's not even close to the same on the driver's and passenger's sides of the car. I guess it worked, and to some degree you can't argue with success, but it's pretty funky... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 I just ran out of welding gas... damn it!!! Well, I guess that means its time to give an update. I've welded the .060" plates to the firewall. I didn't have to make them really grossly huge to cover the gaping holes I cut, they're only 6" x 5". Also added some gussets to the windshield area. 4 gussets in the corners between the dash bar and the A pillar bar and the halo, all about 6" long or so. On the inside I was trying to do 3 pieces, a middle and two sides that would cover everything. I found that I had a very hard time making the middle piece fit the tubes correctly, so I ended up doing a 5 piece setup with a wide center piece and then 2 pieces on each end that fit the tube. I was about 3/4 done welding the sheetmetal patch to the cowl when I ran out of gas. I'm going to have a lot of seams in there, so I figure I'll seam weld the interior, and then use seam sealer inside the cowl box to finish it off before painting. This inside bit is a real PITA. Maybe its just me, but I have a really hard time making the cutout bit fit tightly around the tube, and my spacial reasoning is a bit lacking here too. I kept trying to put the patches around the tube upside down... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 damn that looks amazing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DHale_510 Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Your welding looks great. Your "patches" are perfect. Want to do mine? But, are you going V8 or I6 in this project? I doubt that any intake on an I6 will sit below the left side brace. It would be a serious no no to cut the thing back out at this time. I think that the assymetry that you see in the Friselle car is all about engine and especially induction clearance issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 18, 2007 Author Share Posted April 18, 2007 It's an I6, until I blow it up, then I'm going to swap in an LSx. I've seen other cars with the intake in place that cleared a bar similar to mine. If I have problems I might have to get a different intake manifold or something like that, but I'm hoping that I don't have those issues. I just went out and took a look and it appears that there may be a fitment issue there. I've got some options (shorter intake manifold, lower the engine, etc) and I'll see how bad a problem it is. If it's really bad I'll just prepare for the swap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 18, 2007 Author Share Posted April 18, 2007 Looking at the Frisselle pics again I think he raised the carburetors (or rather raised the ports in the head and tilted the intake manifold to get a straighter shot at the port). I understand this was pretty commonly done back in the day, I know it's discussed in the How to Modify book. Anyway, fingers crossed that it will fit as is without any mods or different manifolds, etc. It's going to be close... I went up to Joe's this morning and got 20 gussets. Pretty cool place, they make everything in house, they have a full machine shop and a NASCAR style car. Looked like there were about 10 employees total. Very friendly people. I got to take a quick look at their race car, it was pretty impressive. Anyway the gussets are tiny! I think about the gussets that you commonly see like in the back of a Coleman catalog and they are probably about the same, but these are taco gussets. Maybe this is all you need... I dunno, they just look so small... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlalomz Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 I put a 1 1/2 tube as close as I could tell where your bar is to check the clearance. I have the short Mikuni manifold. My large ITG filter won't fit with the bar there but maybe a custom airbox will work for you. The stock throttle linkage looks to be in jeopardy so something fancy or a cable throttle. My engine is in the stock location with newer stock motor mounts (no sag). I checked when I built my orange car front tubes and it cleared but this is because of the freakishly high dash bar that Rick at Rebello built. It worked for clearance on the engine bay bars but made my door X bars too high. I modified the driver bar for easier access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 18, 2007 Author Share Posted April 18, 2007 Thanks for the pics Steve. After seeing those pics I'm pretty confident that the triples will work, I just may have to go to the Mikuni manifold, and I can't move my engine back. I'm already running a cable. I'll probably just run with no air cleaner since the quicker this engine goes bye bye the quicker I can justify the swap. Anyone have an opinion on the tiny gusset issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted April 18, 2007 Share Posted April 18, 2007 Anyone have an opinion on the tiny gusset issue? You could always switch to SUs if you wanted to go fast, worked for me I don't think you need to add the gussets in addition to the tube you have. I used a number of these to add weld area on my old car since the PO wasn't a very good welder and had a tendency to due some scary stuff with body filler. I do think a good location for them is the halo to main roll hoop if you decide not to do a small tube there. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 18, 2007 Author Share Posted April 18, 2007 You could always switch to SUs if you wanted to go fast, worked for me Well to be honest I think my car was faster at autox with the SUs than it was with the Mikunis, but that was because I had 3.70 gears at the time. SU's would be a last resort, but it is still a possibility if all else fails. I don't think you need to add the gussets in addition to the tube you have. I used a number of these to add weld area on my old car since the PO wasn't a very good welder and had a tendency to due some scary stuff with body filler. I do think a good location for them is the halo to main roll hoop if you decide not to do a small tube there. Don't tell me the PO of your old car bondo'd the weld joints!!! Man, that'd be about the time I went looking for another shell. I don't think these gussets are large enough to use in the main hoop to halo junction. I could do a bar there instead. I'll have a look at that area. I think I'm going to use them in the diagonal for the main hoop, and maybe see if I can use them here and there. I'd like to get 3 spanning the V to dash bar junction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 18, 2007 Author Share Posted April 18, 2007 OK guys. I think I'm pretty much done with the stuff I wanted to get done before the move. Now I can paint the engine compartment and the bottom and the floor inside. I think I'm still going to leave the cage bare until I get to the new place. Got the patches finished and a dash bar to trans tunnel bar in. Looked at doing the gussets, and they take a good amount of screwing with to make them fit an angle that isn't between 75-90 degrees. More time and effort in that than I want to exert right now. Now its time to clean up and paint the sucker with some Zero Rust... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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