How does an SRT-4 stack up against a turbo'd 240Z?

[Guest bastaad525]

Well it's been exactly one week since I bought my SRT-4. I've driven it (and driven it hard) every day of the week (getting all my breakin miles taken care of in the process), while my poor 240 has sat gathering dust (and lots of ash, thanks Topanga Canyon fires!).

 

I don't know who all would be interested to read this (sure to be a long one) but I'm bored at work with nothing better to do

 

My first impressions of the SRT were that it wasn't nearly as fast as the Z, but was much more solid, handled better, and that it stopped infinitely better with much better brake feel. Well... first impressions can be decieving!

 

After one week of driving the SRT, going back to the Z was a bit of an adjustment (and also a bit surprising). In the Z, there's a bit less foot room for my big size 12's, the clutch take up is more direct. The throttle pedal is less stiffly sprung so feels more sensitive, and it covers a little more distance from off throttle to WOT.

 

Some gripes I had always had about the Z that I always thought would never happen with a new car.... the slightly lumpy idle with the light misfiring, the notchy shift action of the transmission, the lack of off boost punch from being sow low compression.

 

The SRT does these things It's idle is actually lumpier than the 240's and it misfires more audibly, though not as often. The transmission is just as mechanical and notchy feeling. The SRT actually has much of the same character as the Z in a few areas. Listening to and driving them both they make it pretty clear they are intended for performance.

 

I always thought the Z, even with it's 2.8 L, was a slug off boost. The SRT's 2.4 is higher compression, at 8:1, and I always thought that a new car wouldn't have this kind of issue... I thought if anything it should feel punchier than the Z. I was surprised to find today that the Z's off boost throttle response is actually more instant and punchy, probably due as much to the fact that it only has 2300 lbs to push around. I find that in just regular acceleration, I get into low boost much more with the SRT, with the Z I never boost for that same kind of acceleration... boosting in the Z has to be much more of a deliberate act, and for normal driving, it just doesnt' need it.

 

Yet, FULL boost in the SRT requires almost flooring the pedal, whereas I can hit full boost at around half or maybe 2/3 throttle in the Z. But, even though the SRT needs so much more throttle to hit full boost, it STARTS boosting at a very low amount of throttle. So changes in the throttle amount on the SRT feel much more smooth, again, making the Z's throttle response feel much more punchy, much more response for much less pedal movement.

 

For those who claim the stock T3 is not laggy... well there must be something wrong with my T3 Comparing turbo spool in the Z to the SRT would probably be akin to comparing turbo spool in a bone stock supra twin turbo to a big 500-600 hp single turbo supra. The SRT's boost is near instant at anything over 3000rpm. I do know the turbo in the SRT is a bit smaller than the T3. At 3000rpm, with my foot off the pedal and then suddenly flooring it, the SRT literally hits full boost twice as fast as the Z.

 

Another little characteristic both share, I mean almost mirror image, is that they both spike to 14-15psi, settle to about 13psi, and then slowly fall off to about 12psi by redline. I find this part really odd, because in the Z, I'm using a simple grainger valve to control boost, whereas the SRT controls boost with a computer controlled solenoid. I mean they are totally, exactly the same in how their boost curve works, with the only exception being the SRT can hit full boost at a lower rpm, like 2400, vs. nearly 3000rpm in the Z.

 

Now what may be the biggest revelation... after driving the SRT all week and jumping back in the Z, I expected to be amazed by the Z's acceleration. The way I used to be amazed when driving the Z after having driven my Sentra for a week.

 

I was not amazed.

 

If anything, the two are very close. The Z feels more explosive when boost first hits and 300 rear wheel ft lbs of torque hit home, the nose lifts and the chassis almost seems to shudder, whereas the SRT feels much more smooth, you have to watch the speedo to know just how fast it's accelerating (which is pretty fast). Some of this no doubt, is due to the Z needing bushings badly vs. the SRT with it's all brand new bushings etc. But for all that explosive force, the Z also feels like it winds out way too soon, whereas the SRT seems to pull strong all the way to it's 6200rpm rev limiter. The funny thing is the two cars geared VERY similiarly... it's not like in my sentra which redlined (and pulled hard to) 7500rpm, but was geared so much closer together than the Z. So the Z feels faster at first, but the SRT has much more top end. I know that stock SRT's have been clocked at just over 150mph, I don't think my Z would go that fast due to drag, so maybe this contributes to the SRT feeling faster at higher speeds as well. They are very close in wheel hp, though the Z has much more torque, and again, the Z weighs like 700lbs less... So I know the Z HAS to be faster, but I guess the combo of turbo lag and the Z running out of breath so soon makes them feel much more even.

 

Also, the Z makes much more racket when it goes, the valvetrain noise is almost as loud as the exhuast, and the exhaust itself sounds... I dunno.. pissed. The exhaust doesn't sound 'muscular' or 'throaty', it's just LOUD.

 

The SRT is much more quiet, even though it's considered to be one of the louder cars currently for sale, since it has no mufflers. But it sounds 'muscular', like a tuned exhaust... almost like half a Mustang The SRT also serves up some valvetrain noise, which I didn't expect from a new car with hydraulic lifters. The SRT does have many of the Z's mannerisms, like popping between shifts, and of course the sound of the turbo spooling and recirc valve venting. The SRT sounds nicer, the Z sounds scarier I'd say the Z sounds much more like it means business but not at all like it's trying to impress anyone or sound 'cool', but if hear it, you have little doubt that it's fast.

 

So bottom line the Z does acclerate more forcefully, no doubt, but it's much closer than I originally imagined between the two. I know the few upgrades I have already ordered for the SRT (upgraded/adjustable wastegate spring, stage 1 mopar computer) will bring it just that much closer in feel.

 

I also took the chance to run the SRT up my favorite mountain road for the first time today, since it's all broken in and I could finally rev it with confidence. The SRT handles VERY nicely for a front driver, and felt more balanced than I would expect (similiar to the way the Sentra SE-R felt, not at all like any other front driver I've pushed), and I could tell the LSD was doing it's job as I accelerated out of the turns. But going up the hill, as mentioned earlier, I really felt I had to get ON the gas to really pull hard... to get full boost and GO. Whereas with the Z going up that hill, I feel I have to be very careful on the throttle, especially since being RWD with so much torque and such a light body, it's so much easier to induce oversteer. I RARELY floor the Z on those twisty mountain roads, and rarely hit full boost either.

 

But in another surpise... the SRT still didnt feel as 'stuck' or just solid as the Z, even with the Z's 30 year old chassis and wasted bushings. The SRT still feels like it got some of it's commuter car roots in there, with more body roll than I would like, and a bit more bounce from a softer suspension, and that high rear roll center of the SRT's "butt up in the air" sucks. The Z just feels PLANTED. I can tell the Z's center of gravity is much lower, and of course weight bias is much more even with the rwd layout, and with the eibach springs and tokico shocks, it's stiffer than the SRT, and has almost no discernible body lean/roll in hard turns like the SRT. With new bushings I'm sure the Z would probably have that 'on rails' feeling. Though I would expect the SRT would probalby turn better numbers in a slalom test or skidpad test, the Z still FEELS like it handles better, I'm more confident to take turns hard in it. I wish I could really test the Z to find out what kind of numbers it would actually run in a slalom or skidpad.

 

Braking... no contest. The SRT stops RIGHT NOW. And with the ABS, it does so with no fuss. Magazines put 60-0 on the SRT at about 115 feet, right up there with many hardcore sports cars. But another surprise for me... the SRT's pedal is actually SOFTER than the Z's. I had been complaining lately about the Z's pedal feeling too soft... the SRT's is much softer... real spongy, like my wife's Geo Prizm. Commuter car spongy. That was a REAL eye opener, and I dont think I'll complain about the Z's soft brake pedal ever again. But, stiff as it is, the Z just doesn't STOP the way the SRT STOPS. The Z pedal is a bit harder to modulate, the engagement isn't as even as the SRT's as you press harder and harder. And the SRT has taken several hard stops in a row with no fuss, the Z pedal will start to soften up after 2-3.

 

Lastly, believe it or not, the Z is more comfortable. Those 'viper' seats in the SRT do get uncomfortable, even though they really hold you in. It doesn't help that I'm a big guy (6'2" 250lbs). I wouldn't have seen myself saying how comfortable the Z is but relatively... yeah. Though the SRT feels more spacious inside, almost cavernous, the seating in the Z feels more roomy. Also, the SRT seating is much more upright (commuter car feel again), the Z you sit much closer to the ground and much closer to the floorpans, and my legs are stretched almost straight out. The visibility out of the Z is much better, even though I sit much lower in it. The SRT's rear end is too high, and it has that massive wing, also the pilars at the four corners are very thick and can block a substantial amount of the view outward.

 

So there it is. If I were scoring the two, they would score very closely together, they both have great strengths and a few glaring weaknesses. I thought after driving the SRT I would either miss the Z greatly and feel cheated, like I was downgrading. OR that it would be so nice driving a new car that I would never want to drive the Z again so I wouldn't have to put up with of all those little quirks I've ever complained about that go along with driving such an old car (which it seems can apply to a brand new one too!). But really they are SO close together, in all respects except for braking where the SRT just OWNS. I could totally see keeping both cars and enjoying each in their own way w/o ever feeling I was sacrificing something to not be driving the other. They are both fast, fun, and quirky. They both require 91 and so far get very similiar gas mileage even, at about 18mpg (yep! that EPA rating on the SRT's window does NOT apply if you actually like to DRIVE!).

 

In closing, I love them both this has been a real eye opening experience, as much as I felt 'tired' of the Z a week ago, driving it today was a real blast. It is true what they say, absence makes the heart grow fonder.

[Gollum]

18 miles per gallon. I guess there IS no such thing as horse power without fuel.

 

Thanks for the write up.

[Guest bastaad525]

well supposedly it will get 30 highway mpg's if I could keep my foot out of it....

 

 

 

but we know that's not going to happen, now don't we

 

 

It's no real surprise though about the fuel mileage... I mean, it's very close in size to my Z"s motor, makes about the same wheel hp, dragging around a lot more weight, and I drive them both with the same lead foot.

 

Also though, I have been told that gas mileage will improve on the SRT after a few thousand miles... don't know why that would be, but it's in the new owner FAQ, everyone gets crappy mileage the first 3000 miles or so. We shall see.

[Gollum]

yea, i've heard that about break in theology, wich is what it all really is. One of the more respected theologies in break in periods for motorcycle motors is at first start up bring the motor to redline ASAP and vary the throttle quick to get the revs floating 1000 rpm away from redline and back again. The idea is the get the piston rings broken it as soon as possible to seal the chamber as soon as possible.

 

And oddly enough, it works. Go figure.

[auxilary]

my buddy dave has an 03 srt4 neon. He gets 30mpg on hwy if he stays off the throttle. The srt4 does not misfire. What you're hearing is the unburnt fuel igniting in the exhaust.

 

The reason you're hearing it so well is because your srt4 doesn't have any mufflers

[BrandonsZ]

"I can tell the Z's center of gravity is much lower"

 

Put a T56 and V8 with alum heads, intake and water pump in that puppy, and to be honest with you, I actually feel like the car leans IN to the turns. Like as if the center of gravity is below the roll center. I know this seems odd, but my drivetrane is about even with the wheel centerlines, and I sit so low because of the broken seats that my 210lb weight is probably not far off line with the roll center as well. The Z does not feel like it's on rails, the front tires do, but the rear will kick out, but it comes right back with a slight throttle adjustment.

 

After driving a Prelude with 60/40 front drive, I was very afraid of kicking the rear out, because, although it would do it predictably, it would almost certainly oversteer, and not drift, and I'd usually have a heck of a time pulling it back without losing controle, (which happened twice).

 

This car? I kicked it out like 20 degrees and it poped right back like I meant to do that, if I had kicked the prelude out that far, I would have paid for it literally.

 

I'd take this Z with all it's vibration, smell, and loud exhaust over the Prelude any day.

 

Sounds like Dodge has it's act together even if it is a FWD.

 

Cool car. What's up with 18mpg though? I get that tooling the neighborhood with my car! But I'll never see 30mpg on the hiway, got 25 once though.

[Phantom]

Hmm - LS1 with T56 - instant response, gobs of torque, T56 - no notching with Hurst shifter, 19-20 mpg commuting to work, V8 rumble, Willwood brakes - lock-em up anytime I want, routinely eat SRT-4's. And I would want one why?

[BrandonsZ]

Hmm - LS1 with T56 - instant response, gobs of torque, T56 - no notching with Hurst shifter, 19-20 mpg commuting to work, V8 rumble, Willwood brakes - lock-em up anytime I want, routinely eat SRT-4's. And I would want one why?

 

LT1, more torque.

[cygnusx1]

I drove a 60 HP Honda Civic daily. My stock 76Z was my "fun" car. I sold the civic and bought a WRX with 227HP. I was blown away! My Z was no longer the "fun" car. Oddly enough, I still loved to drive it. Then I turned up the boost in the WRX and added fuel for 265HP. I could not believe how easy it was to make power with a turbo. I was bitten by the bug. I found HybridZ.org and the rest is history. The Z is now my "fun" car again with that turbo whine.

 

Leapfrog the cars over eachother until they get too fast for you to handle.

[rudypoochris]

If i may ask, what brake upgrades did you do to the Z?

[Guest ON3GO]

how you think i feel!

ive always had quick cars..

i went from my 12 sec budget 280Z to my scion xB!!!!!!!!!

 

but not to poke fun at ya man.. but after driving my friends srt4 for abit, it felt like i was sitting in my xB but with the xB being more comfy.

the srt4 trys to feel sporty inside but it doesnt do it very well.

while the engine, suspension, brakes, and etc are sporty.. pretty funny i think.

 

when i had my blue Z running i would drive that sucker everyday to work, where there i would get to drive ferrari's, porsches, alfas, bmw's, audi's, etc etc.. and when i would hop in my Z and fire it up and head off.. i would forget everything else i driven that day... the Z is just more fun and way more cool.

even the owner of a 575M Ferrari got a ride in my Z at 18psi and almost **** himself.. he didnt know it was quick so he didnt brace him self for it.. he loved it so much that he bought a super clean 76 280Z and sold the ferrari for a street spec miata.

 

mike

[Gollum]

how you think i feel!

ive always had quick cars..

i went from my 12 sec budget 280Z to my scion xB!!!!!!!!!

 

 

I really feel for ya man, even though I'm laughing uncontrollably. That really sucks man.

 

I know a guy who owns a ferarri shop that use to drive an old 80's mazda 626 to work everyday. That's kinda sad.

[Guest bastaad525]

my buddy dave has an 03 srt4 neon. He gets 30mpg on hwy if he stays off the throttle. The srt4 does not misfire. What you're hearing is the unburnt fuel igniting in the exhaust.

 

The reason you're hearing it so well is because your srt4 doesn't have any mufflers

 

Well I recently heard that the SRT will get crappy gas mileage until it passes like 3000 miles or so... we shall see. I've been doing more street than freeway driving this week, but yeah, I definately have NOT passed 20 mpg's just yet. I might be doing a drive to either san diego or vegas in the next week or two here... that's gonna be either 300 or 600 miles depending which we choose... I'll try to keep my foot out of it and see what kind of mileage I get.

 

About the misfire thing, you know, I wonder if that's what the sound is in my Z? that is to say, not a true misfire, but instead, fuel igniting in the exhaust. I know it idles pretty rich, so I'm sure lots of unburnt fuel is going out of the head. I mean.. I tried so many things to get rid of that popping, upgrading and replacing ignition parts and leaning the car to the point that it was choking, I mean... I tried all the typical things you would try to cure a misfire, but the popping was still there.

 

 

Mike - about going from the Z to the Scion, see that's why I wanted the SRT... because I can jump from one car to the other and it doesn't SUCK, you know? The interior isn't really sporty, the seats are though, they held me in damn well going up that mountain road yesterday. Not like the Z where my grip on the steering wheel is likely the only thing keeping me from flying out the window I know a lot of people knock the SRT for it's 'rental car interior' but you know... I just don't see that. This is my first car that I've owned that wasn't at least 10 years old, so being a brand new interior, I'm actually impressed with it. Everything works, and is functional and clean, and feels and looks new. The stereo sounds VERY good for just the stock stereo, IMO, and is pretty bassy. It doesn't feel 'rental car' or cheap at all, but then again I dont have a lot of experience in up-market cars to compare to. I like the car, and my friends who've seen it so far have all liked the look of it as well, it's gotten many compliments so far.

 

Cygnus - I have a feeling when my stage 1 ECU and upgraded/adjustable wastegate spring show up later this week and I start turning up the boost, that the Z won't be 'the fun car' for me anymore either. I mean their already so close in 'fun factor', and the guys at the srt forums are saying I should get at LEAST 20-30 whp from just these two upgrades... it's gonna be a blast. Good so I will have even less regret whenever I finally find a buyer for the Z. But until the day it's gone, I will continue to drive it at least once a week, and do still enjoy that very much.

 

rudypoorchris - 100% stock brakes in the Z. Recently installed rebuilt calipers, stock factory nissan pads. Stock rubber lines.

 

Phantom - no one said you would want one and if I had YOUR Z, I probably wouldn't have wanted an SRT either.

[BrandonsZ]

You should know if you had an ignition in the exhaust, they usually frown on that considering it sounds similar to a gunshot. Usually the Cats get dammaged from that over time too, and you'd need a A/F ratio less than 10 to trigger it usually. In my experiance.

[Gollum]

Yea, #1 killer of cats is fuel. Unburnt fuel can kill a cat in less than a year. The nice thing about turbos is that the turbo usually generates enough heat to burn off excess fuel, leading to generally lower emissions than NA vehicles. But nox is generally higher on turbo motors.

[BrandonsZ]

According to Flowmaster, if your A/F ratio is 12-16 in normal operation, no problem, down to 11 is iffy and below 10 is destructive. Above 16 is destructive only if there is a buildup of heat.

[auxilary]

everyone always says "oh, why bother with a 4 banger turbo fwd shitbox when you can take a _________, put in a _______, make more power, more torque, blah blah blah"

 

find me a stock car for 21k that seats 4 comfortably, gets 28-30mpg on freeway, has 7 year/100k warranty, and runs high 13s out of the box?

 

[Guest bastaad525]

everyone always says "oh' date=' why bother with a 4 banger turbo fwd shitbox when you can take a _________, put in a _______, make more power, more torque, blah blah blah"

 

find me a stock car for 21k that seats 4 comfortably, gets 28-30mpg on freeway, has 7 year/100k warranty, and runs high 13s out of the box?

[/quote']

 

Thank you Couldn't have said that better myself.

 

About gas mileage, I took a little trip yesterday, full tanked it and did 100 miles round trip, 90 of them freeway, some bumper to bumper traffic and some leadfooting (I tried very hard to keep it to a minimum though), came back and full tanked again and put just over 3.5 gallons... so about 27 miles per gallon. That was with the A/C on the whole way as well. MUCH better... I guess the 17-18 mpg's is more due to me just having too much fun with the throttle. And again, supposedly the mileage will get better after about 3000 miles, according to the SRT-4 'new owner FAQ'.

 

My wastegate spring mod should show up in the mail today *pleasepleasepleasecrossesfingersplease*.

 

And my stage 1 ECU has been shipped today.

 

Stock EFI is supposed to be good for up to 17-19 psi.... right now I"m only running 12-14... :D

[Guest bastaad525]

w00t well my first mods showed up today, the oil catch can (much needed, I was shocked to see how much oil it has collected in a very short amount of time!!), and my wastegate actuator spring mod.

 

Well let me say that for a $10 mod, well... those of you turbo guys know how big a difference "hardware store upgrades" can make. I turned boost up about 3 psi (used to run about 12, now running about 15, stock efi supposedly good for 17-18).... what a difference! Peeling out from a stand still and getting them to break loose in second is a common occurence now. Not sure how much more power it made, of course, other than the butt dyno, but I know on my Z I was getting average 15 rwhp for 1 psi of boost even up to 14psi. So I'm guessing 10-20 whp gained... not bad for $10 eh? TURBO CARS KICK AZZ!!!!

 

As already mentioned, now I'm just waiting on my Mopar stage 1 ECU upgrade, also supposedly good for about 10 whp / 10 ftlbs, but more importantly a totally reshaped boost curve, with much more boost available at a much lower amount of applied throttle... as mentioned above that's one thing I DON"T like with the way the car is now, is that I litterally have to floor the pedal to get full boost, it behaves more like an on/off switch than the nice smooth curve on my Z. So I think it will FEEL a lot faster than just the 10hp rating implies.

 

I can't wait!!! Then it's off to the dyno and/or the track, expecting 240whp or more and a high 13 1/4 time. Loving this car so far man....

[rudypoochris]

Bastaad try changing the spark plugs on the z then leaning it out. Im not sure but they could have carbon deposites all over them from an overly rich mixture. Also maybe a brake upgrade like the 4x4 vented will be able to let you catch up to the srt4 in braking, the z is a helluv alot lighter after all