tube80z Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 Looking good Jon. About the only thing I would have done differently is use tubing where you used the flat pieces with bolts. Either should work fine. I've used the long mount on the control arms to keep the heims lined up. It worked and I didn't have any problems with it so I think it is a good solution. Have you looked at possibley hooking directly to the strut housing? Another low cost option is to use a mount similar to what you did for hooking the heims to make the sway bar adjustable. Simply cut off the forged or welded ends and make a split clamp you can loosen to slide back and forth for adjustment. As you mentioned water pipe works well for this. Keep posting pics and keeping the rest of us motivated Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 21, 2006 Share Posted April 21, 2006 Yeah, I did think about hooking to the strut, I just don't think it's going to work with the placement of my coilovers and all the rest. Plus in the back the strut is way farther back, compared to where the sway bar normally attaches. I had thought of using a pipe over the end of the sway bar, but that would make the bar at least a bit stiffer than it is now, unless I was to add to the length of the bar with some tubing, and I don't know how strong that would be... One other issue that occurs to me is that maybe the rod end should be spaced away from the attachment point on the control arm to allow more angularity. I know you have some other ideas about the mount to the control arm part, don't you Cary? Now's the time to share... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 Yeah, I did think about hooking to the strut, I just don't think it's going to work with the placement of my coilovers and all the rest. Plus in the back the strut is way farther back, compared to where the sway bar normally attaches. For some reason when I wrote this I was thinking about the front swaybar and not thinking rear. I agree it's a lot easier to use the stock locations on the back. I had thought of using a pipe over the end of the sway bar, but that would make the bar at least a bit stiffer than it is now, unless I was to add to the length of the bar with some tubing, and I don't know how strong that would be... I ran a front bar like this wtih no problems. I milled a slot in the pipe and it had two bolts for a pinch clamp, which looked similar to a toe-rod adjuster you see on many trucks. The end was capped and a u-bracket welded to it to hold the heim. When tightened it seemed as stiff as the bar, never loosened, and allowed me to have a longer or shorter bar for very little $$$$ outlay. One other issue that occurs to me is that maybe the rod end should be spaced away from the attachment point on the control arm to allow more angularity. I know you have some other ideas about the mount to the control arm part, don't you Cary? Now's the time to share... Make the lower mount double shear and weld it on if you can. That will be stiffer than a bolt-on mount. And as you have mentioned out some spacers on the rod ends to allow for a little more room. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 For some reason when I wrote this I was thinking about the front swaybar and not thinking rear. I agree it's a lot easier to use the stock locations on the back. The problem in the front is the tie rod is right in the damn way. I gotta figure out what to do with my crossmember/rack/steer knuckles/tie rods, but until then I think I'm just going to go to the control arm I can always attach to the strut housing later. It wouldn't be hard to do, there just isn't that much room. It would probably be a lot easier if I had 8" springs instead of 10" springs. I ran a front bar like this wtih no problems. I milled a slot in the pipe and it had two bolts for a pinch clamp, which looked similar to a toe-rod adjuster you see on many trucks. The end was capped and a u-bracket welded to it to hold the heim. When tightened it seemed as stiff as the bar, never loosened, and allowed me to have a longer or shorter bar for very little $$$$ outlay. Aaaah I see!!! Now that makes sense. I was thinking I'd have to weld a tube to the end of the bar with the same OD as the bar, then slide a sleeve over that. I was thinking that the connection where the tube was welded to the end of the bar would take A LOT of stress. Your way seems a lot easier, just make the sleeve overlap the end of the bar by a good amount and you're set. I'll definitely consider that as an option. Do you by chance recall how much overlap you had on the bar? I'm thinking the sleeve should be maybe 8" long and only adjust so that 4" hangs off. Make the lower mount double shear and weld it on if you can. That will be stiffer than a bolt-on mount. And as you have mentioned out some spacers on the rod ends to allow for a little more room. Double shear was what I was considering doing. Spacers are kind of a bummer, but I think they're going to be necessary because as the suspension goes through the travel the rod end angle changes, and a 3/8" rod end doesn't allow for too much articulation. With the double shear mounts top and bottom I'm thinking that is going to be a PITA when I do have to change the locations though, since the bolt has to come all the way out to switch to the next hole. A slot might fix that situation but that's probably a bit beyond my fab skills at the moment since it would probably require milling some sort of recessed area. Maybe a little tiny smear of JB weld on the end of the spacer to hold it to the rod end or something like that might work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 The problem in the front is the tie rod is right in the damn way. I gotta figure out what to do with my crossmember/rack/steer knuckles/tie rods, but until then I think I'm just going to go to the control arm I can always attach to the strut housing later. It wouldn't be hard to do, there just isn't that much room. It would probably be a lot easier if I had 8" springs instead of 10" springs. 8s would be a lot easier. But all this is in the stock location so I don't see the issue with interference. Do you by chance recall how much overlap you had on the bar? I'm thinking the sleeve should be maybe 8" long and only adjust so that 4" hangs off. My tube was 6 inches long. You can't go too long and as you'll run into the curve on the bar itself. I think I only moved it about 2.5 to 3 inches total. Mostly I left it alone but I could brag it was adjustable and that was worth at least a half second Spacers are kind of a bummer, but I think they're going to be necessary because as the suspension goes through the travel the rod end angle changes, and a 3/8" rod end doesn't allow for too much articulation. With the double shear mounts top and bottom I'm thinking that is going to be a PITA when I do have to change the locations though, since the bolt has to come all the way out to switch to the next hole. For the spacer use one that presses in and then you can run one bolt size smaller and you don't have bits if spacer falling out, which I agree is a PITA. And for a bolt consider a pip pin. You can pull it with no tools if you want to disconnect the bar. I know a national level Miata driver that does this when it rains. Hope this helps, Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 23, 2006 Share Posted April 23, 2006 As far as attaching to the strut, I have about 6" from the coilover seat to the bottom of the strut tube. I figure the stock sway bar end links are ~4" long, so that means that I might have 2.5 or 3 inches from the sway bar in it's normal location to the seat for the coilover. I guess the rod end mount will lower that a bit more, but I still think its going to be a tight squeeze in there. Maybe I'll mock it up a bit better when I get the front swaybar mounting rod ends installed, I already have the sleeves cut and tapped, just need to bend up the plate for the frame rail reinforcement. Not finding any 3/8 to 1/4" rod end reducers online Not sure I'd trust a 1/4" bolt in there anyway. I guess the next thing to figure out is how much to cut off the end of the bar. If I went 6" on the sleeve, maybe cut 1.5" off the end of the bar, so I could go 1.5" stiffer and 1.5" softer than the stock bar. Then there is the other part of me that says "You know you're just going to cut it again later to make it stiffer". Maybe I'll just start with the 1.5. No biggee to take the bar off and hack the end of later if needed. Thanks for all the help on this Cary. I think this is going to end up with me taking almost ALL of your suggestions. I can say this, the rod end mount for the bar is a FRIGGIN HUUUUUUGE improvement over the poly bushings. Hopefully the rest of these mods will be equally as impressive. I'm starting to actually get anxious to drive the thing. Probably still another year off still, but it is going to be a WHOLE DIFFERENT ANIMAL, that's for sure! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 24, 2006 Share Posted April 24, 2006 Ran a tape measure down the swaybar real quick. Just cutting the stock ends off removes 2" front and back. So I guess I'll get 2" stiffer and 1" softer, and can always cut more off if necessary like mentioned before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 26, 2006 Share Posted April 26, 2006 Front frame rail mods are done! Made a plate that goes all the way across the frame rail and up the side. I looked at the rail and it was visibly sagging on the outside end, so I decided to wrap it up on that side. I cut off the little flange and welded it up after clamping everything together. When I cut the flange off it was easy to see that the end of the rail was spreading pretty badly. That end of the rail was open about 3/16". If I had welded the angle on the other side it probably would have been fine, but this side was definitely the weaker of the two and had already broken the flange at the spot welds so I think I did the right thing. Then I made a 2x3 plate to go on top. I did just as I had said before, and drilled and tapped my tube for the 7/16" rod end, and left enough sticking out both ends so that I could weld it up. I still need to cut the top of the tube off. Nice part about this setup is that I also drilled holes for the original swaybar mounts. If for some reason this idea doesn't work out I can spend a couple minutes with the grinder and maybe a few more with the welder and revert to the poly bushing, but the support from the tube will still be there. Looked at the rear bar, there is only about 4" from the end where I would cut it off and the first bend on the bar. Thinking about welding a piece of 4x1x.25 bar stock vertically and drilling holes in the conventional style, then running the front with the slip fitting that Cary describes. The front has 9" of bar before the bend, so it has plenty of room. I guess I could just do a shorter sleeve in the back, but then it's not as adjustable as it could be the other way. Have to mull that one over a bit more. Another thing. I was looking at the plate I welded to the top of the frame, and looking at my strut tower bar, and thinking I should just weld a support from one to the other like this: In my case I'd just use a length of that 1x1x.063 square tube, since I can't ever see needing to remove it. That red car makes me oOo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 27, 2006 Share Posted April 27, 2006 Pretty self explanatory today: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 27, 2006 Share Posted April 27, 2006 I'm feeling a bit lost here. Need some help. I stuck the suspension on the car just to get a look at what I'm doing, try to regain my bearings. I stuck the swaybar on the new rod end mounts and used the old end links. Well, turns out that by lowering the bar attachment point the old end links no longer work because the interfere with the tie rod end. Coincidentally there are little dents in the swaybar, so apparently my old setup needed longer end links in there too. The more I get into this suspension, the more I realize how BAD it was before. It was bound up like a mofo. Anyway, I used my rear end links which on my old bar was about 3/4" longer. Needed to stack a bunch of washers, and I was only able to get it to almost clear. Couldn't quite get it to clear the tie rod when at full bump. So the longer end links give me 3.25" from the control arm to the sway bar, which means that my new end links will have to be something like 3.5" long. I'm looking at this thing and I'm noticing a couple problems: 1. The bar sits at an angle to the control arm. If I was to use the sleeved end, when I adjusted the bar longer it would increase the preload on the bar. 2. My rod end end links are about 2.75" long center to center. I know that the mount is going to add about .25" top and bottom, so I won't have any trouble with threading these things out a bit to get the 3.5" between the bar and the control arm. But it might limit how far I can adjust, because the farther I adjust the longer the end link has to get. 3. The solution to the first two problems seems to be to bend the swaybar, but then that reduces the amount of room I have to use a sleeve. 4. If I was to use the 1/4" thick bar, I could weld it on at an angle so that it would be parallel to the control arm and then I could adjust the hole without screwing up the preload as much. 5. I could change the tie rod around to make room. I have some 1" hex aluminum that I had intended to use to make new tie rods, or I could just take the bend out of the stock tie rod and that would allow a good amount of clearance. 6. I'm getting dizzy and my ears are smoking. Help me think of anything else I'm missing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 27, 2006 Share Posted April 27, 2006 I forgot to mention I did figure out how to use the sleeve in the rear. Just put 2 clevises on the sleeve. That way you don't have to move as far up the bar, but you can still be farther away from the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Hmm... nobody has anything for me, eh? I can't imagine this is "new" territory. I'm thinking the thing to do is bend the end of the bar. I have a Port a Power and it has a tip that looks about right. I'm thinking if I use that tip on my 12 ton HF press maybe I can get it done. That damn press scares the crap out of me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlalomz Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 How about tying the sway bar link to the strut like Vic Sias did on his BSP car. and/or make tubular tie rods with bumpsteer spacers giving you more room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Thanks for the suggestions. I think the bumpsteer spacer might provide some of the necessary clearance. I know with my slotted crossmember I can raise the LCA inner pivot about an inch from where it was before, so that should mean that I can lower the outer pivot 1" and end up right where I started bumpsteerwise. About the strut attachment, people keep suggesting this here and other places, but I must be missing something. I know Vic's car is FA-AST, but that tie rod has to be binding on the swaybar. Looking at mine I need a little more clearance than I show in the pics above. Probably have to have about 1.75" between the bar and the tie rod which is about 10x what Vic has got in that pic you show. Even with that amount of clearance it's binding at full bump on my car. When you get it to that point and you've got 10" springs like I do then the length of the end link goes from 6" long down to about 3" long. So then I'm thinking what's the point? I still feel like I'm missing something. As an aside, I think I've given up on bending the 1" bar. I just don't think my little press is going to do it. I might tweak the 3/4 a bit if needed, but I don't think that one needs it as much, if at all. Thinking more and more that the answer might be to weld a bar stock end on the swaybar at an angle so that it sits parallel to the control arm. Wouldn't have the double shear effect, but if it doesn't bind that's still going to be an improvement, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj paul Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 can you do a little drawing of what you are planning? im pretty sure i know what you mean but i just want to make sure, i might be able to help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I'm no artist, but here's your drawing. The picture is obviously not to scale. The idea I have is to rotate the bar back a bit so that the end sticks up higher over the tie rod. This would give more clearance to the tie rod, and hopefully the two won't hit at full bump. Then cut the bar off at an angle so that I could get maximum welding area. Cut a .25" slot into the end of the bar, and weld it on so that it hangs over the control arm vertically and parallel to the control arm. Then use Cary's double shear lower mounts made with a couple pieces of angle iron to attach the bar to the control arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I think I might wait and mess with the tie rod first. The only problem with that is if I make the bar fit tightly to the tie rod with the tie rod spaced down, then that forces me to move the LCA pivot up to keep the bumpsteer minimized. That's kinda where I thought I was going anyway, but I did like the idea of adjustability, and I'd lose it by doing that. Ah well. Maybe I'll mess with that control arm/frame interference in the back for a while and see if any more good ideas come rolling in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Hmm... nobody has anything for me, eh? I can't imagine this is "new" territory. I'm thinking the thing to do is bend the end of the bar. I have a Port a Power and it has a tip that looks about right. I'm thinking if I use that tip on my 12 ton HF press maybe I can get it done. That damn press scares the crap out of me though. I was hiding in Mexico for the last week. Managed to get good and sick so I can't say it was a lot of fun. A couple of things I noticed on your pic with the heims hanging down. You have them screwed out quite a ways. On the TA cars they had them threaded in all the way and held with red loctite. I also noticed the ears have a bit of clearance for the heim, this can be taken down to almost touching and you could gain a little more clearance by thinning the section under the heim. You can also rotate the clamp, it doesn't have to be in a direct line, mine weren't. But you need to make sure things are clamped really tight. I think you'll find that if you rotate it up and move the heims in you'll have enough clearance. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I think I might wait and mess with the tie rod first. The only problem with that is if I make the bar fit tightly to the tie rod with the tie rod spaced down, then that forces me to move the LCA pivot up to keep the bumpsteer minimized. That's kinda where I thought I was going anyway, but I did like the idea of adjustability, and I'd lose it by doing that. You'll also be adding dive if you drop the front location down. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I'm no artist' date=' but here's your drawing. The picture is obviously not to scale. [img']http://home.comcast.net/~jemortensen/swaybar.gif[/img] Then cut the bar off at an angle so that I could get maximum welding area. Cut a .25" slot into the end of the bar, and weld it on so that it hangs over the control arm vertically and parallel to the control arm.. This should work fine. I agree you really want the lever on the sway bar to be at a 90 to the linkage that goes to the lower control arm. In your previous example the bar looked to have a falling rate. In the past I've made a few adjustable bars like this by grinding a falt along one side of the bar and then placing the 1/4 plate on this and welding along the edges and a few plug welds too. You can put build all the anlges you need into the plate. I hope that makes sense, or you'll force me to make some poor drawings too Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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