JMortensen Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I was hiding in Mexico for the last week. Managed to get good and sick so I can't say it was a lot of fun. Ouch. Hope Montezuma didn't pay you a visit. That's no fun at all. A couple of things I noticed on your pic with the heims hanging down. You have them screwed out quite a ways. On the TA cars they had them threaded in all the way and held with red loctite. I also noticed the ears have a bit of clearance for the heim, this can be taken down to almost touching and you could gain a little more clearance by thinning the section under the heim. I have them screwed down because there is no lock nut on there yet. I was trying to guesstimate the amount of space I'd need to leave for the nut. I hadn't considered holding it with just loctite. I don't suppose there would be a whole lot of twisting force on the rod end itself to make it break loose, and it couldn't really go anywhere even if it did come loose. I would have to cut a bit off the end of the threads, the threads bottom before the end hits the frame. I don't want to get into changing the brackets if I don't have to, but you're right, there is about 1/8 to 3/16" clearance below the heim to the bar. You can also rotate the clamp, it doesn't have to be in a direct line, mine weren't. But you need to make sure things are clamped really tight. I think you'll find that if you rotate it up and move the heims in you'll have enough clearance. I'll definitely give this a shot. My thought was that I'd want the clamps straight down or a little forward as they are in the pics, so that the fore/aft motion of the bar was minimized when the suspension went through it's travel. Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on that, it really doesn't seem like it's going to move back and forth that much. Definitely something that can be easily checked though. Thanks Cary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 About the strut attachment' date=' people keep suggesting this here and other places, but I must be missing something. I know Vic's car is FA-AST, but that tie rod [b']has to be[/b] binding on the swaybar. Looking at mine I need a little more clearance than I show in the pics above. Probably have to have about 1.75" between the bar and the tie rod which is about 10x what Vic has got in that pic you show. Even with that amount of clearance it's binding at full bump on my car. When you get it to that point and you've got 10" springs like I do then the length of the end link goes from 6" long down to about 3" long. So then I'm thinking what's the point? I still feel like I'm missing something. I think Vic's car was fast because he was the first guy to start playing with some stiffer rates and getting them to work. Locally we have a number of Zs that have copied this (including the red one in your earlier pic, which belongs to Dave Kipperman) and they have all responded very well. Before we started doing this we all got beat by Miatas, vettes, RX-7s, etc. You'll also notice Vic doesn't have any bumpsteer spacers and appears to be using an EVIL underground front RC, which I have found to work very well for me in autox. What isn't mentioned is when you hook the sway bar to the strut it acts like it is larger because of the reduced motion ratio. I think you'll find a 7/8 about equivalent to a 1 inch bar in the normal locations. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 You'll also be adding dive if you drop the front location down. I was talking about dropping the tie rod down and raising the inner LCA pivot to compensate. Then I can raise the TC pivot as well. Should end up better than it was last time I was driving it. EDIT-I saw that video of Kipperman's car at the Shasta autox. Very impressive. I'm going to do the stiffer spring thing, just need to get the rest of this crap done first, and I think I might end up a little softer in the end, like 300 to 350 lb rates. This would be due to the cost of struts to handle the 400+ rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Ouch. Hope Montezuma didn't pay you a visit. That's no fun at all. Yep, and he's a bastard! Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Rotating things around and threading the rod end all the way in really made a difference! First I tried rotating the mounts towards the back. This was a mistake, and I probably should have figured that out really quickly, but it took me a while... When the suspension compressed the mounts wanted to hit the frame rail, and the bar stuck all the way out on the other end of the control arm. Then I figured out that I'd be better off rotating it to the front. I basically put the suspension at full droop and then set the mount on the frame rail, knowing that as the suspension moved it would come off the rail. This seems to work OK, although I'd probably leave 1/8" between the mount and the frame when I finally install this permanently. The angle between the bar and the tie rod is now much better and arm doesn't require nearly as much clearance to keep from hitting the tie rod as the suspension goes through the travel. Starting with about 1.5" clearance I had probably 3/4" at full bump. Some pics: Mount touches frame at full droop. See the clearance between bar and tie rod? Rotation of the mount at full bump. So now I'm ready to cut the end off of the bar I think, but I'm still a bit concerned about how and where to cut it. The end of the bar is going to need to bend out to line up with the existing hole for the end link. I'm thinking I can do this one of two ways. The first way is to basically make an angle in my 1/4" bar stock and weld it on. The second uses no bend in the bar stock, but connects to a part of the sway bar that isn't as thick. Crappy drawing: I'm thinking of going with the first method, since I could attach to the main section of the bar, and I think this is pretty much how Terry's rear bar is done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Did more on the back end today. Problems there too. The issue is that by spacing the bar 1.5" back the end link now looks like it will interfere with the CV shaft. I don't exactly want to make the bar super long as that would soften it maybe too much. Not sure what to do yet, but I think the answer is going to involve cutting the rod ends down so that I can make the end link super short. Not the best answer, but it might be the only answer, and even the poly end link that came with the bar is shorter than the male and female rod ends just screwed together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Had an interesting thought today. The swaybars dont cross over the control arms in a straight front to back way. They come in at an angle, which makes it a little harder to do the swaybar attachment points in the rear. So I'm looking at my control arm... ...and I'm thinking why don't I just cut the entire recessed area out? Then it would be possible to lay my angle iron strips at the correct angle, drill as appropriate and weld it on. I could even go all the way to the rail on the either side and maybe strengthen the arm itself. Think I'm going to give this a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Made these today for the rear. I am going to need to cut some off the end, so I didn't want to get the rearmost clamp too close to the end. They're kind of ugly, but they should work OK... I also cut the raised section out of the control arm. I'm halfway thinking about putting the angle iron on the bottom of the arm that is shown, then putting 2x2x1/8" angle iron on the other side so that the depth would be even on both sides. This would allow the end links to be longer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 So when this all started did you think you'd be building a trans-am car Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I was kinda hoping... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Well, I think this was a wasted effort. The sleeve when cut down all the way to the first pinch clamp ended up being slightly longer than the stock bar. If I cut another inch off the bar it would end up being 3" long and might not have enough material for the sleeve to slide onto, and the sleeve already bottoms on the bar as it is. So right now i can soften the bar about 1.5" or so from stock, but can't stiffen it at all. Thinking about doing the bar stock thing with the back too and at least that way I'd be able to go 1" stiffer, stock, or 1" softer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 It's pretty hard to go tighter than stock with the rod end in line with the tube, isn't it? I would think that if your end link bracket was such that the rod end attached out of line with the axis of the tube you could get a whole lot more adjustment out of it. Can't you just move your rod end mounting point down (towards the ground)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 I'm not sure I understand. I suppose I could put a clevis on the SIDE of the sleeve and run the rod end twisted 90 degrees. Is that what you mean? Because that might just work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 More or less what I mean, yeah. I am sure you can do it in a nice tidy package with a bit of fiddling. If I wasn't at work I'd do up a sketch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Actually that would allow me to rotate the sleeve 90 degrees too. The other problem I have with the current sleeve is that if the clamps face down they look like they'll hit the control arm at full bump and if they face up they're likely to hit the CV joint. I was a dumbass and should have put them on the side to begin with. Ooh, I could weld 3 pieces to the side, that way I could use a rear mount or a forward mount in addition to sliding the sleeve for more adjustability. Back to the garage!!! Thanks Drax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drax240z Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 OK, very quick sketch here of what I mean... Nothing to scale really, just trying to get the idea across. The rod end would have the threaded portion pointed "up" in this picture, towards the control arm. (yes, it's upside down) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 There isn't enough room for that unfortunately. By putting the clevis on the side it centers the end in the control arm a little better, so I'm hoping this will work out. I just welded the thing together to check the articulation of the end links and make sure they don't bind. If that checks out then I'll cut the original end off and clean it up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 This didn't work. It binds after about 3" of travel. Plan B it is, unless someone has another idea to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tube80z Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 This didn't work. It binds after about 3" of travel. Plan B it is, unless someone has another idea to try. Does it bind from being too short? That's what I'm guessing. I'm also guessing that it's a lot easier to tell when it binds with your new setup. Cary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted May 5, 2006 Share Posted May 5, 2006 Even with the rod ends all the way threaded out the end link is still too short. But you're right Cary, when I was checking it was moving just peachy with just one finger lifting, then all of a sudden stopped. Looked around and could easily see what was causing the problem. Even with the sliders not working out, I am still pretty excited about this mod. It's going to be so much better than poly bushings with no adjustments, not to mention the horrible binding on the old MSA rear bar that I was using. Did think a bit about other alternatives like mounting the bar to a frame for the fuel cell and then running the arms forward to end links attached to the struts. Or doing a really heavy tubular bar that ends just outside the uprights, with arms that attach in the middle of the control arm. Wouldn't get as much motion there, but you could make up for it with a heavier bar... Ah, next time. For the moment I think I'll be happy with the bar stock with the 3 holes drilled in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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