Ford gets it wrong... AGAIN!!!

[Guest bastaad525]

If you follow the editorials in the Detroit-iron mainstay magazines, such as Hot Rod and Car Craft, you’ll notice that the editorials praise muscle cars not only for large engine with lots of torque (always a good thing in my book) but their “manly sizeâ€. In other words, many American car buyers prefer the large dimensions and don’t mind the weight.

 

 

that is a really sad mentality. I've really developed a love for small cars. Even my SRT-4 seems so big to me, compared to my 240z. It was funny... yesterday on the freeway home from work, in the SRT, I passed by a 240, and the thing just looked TINY. And the SRT is considered a compact as well, at 'only' 2900 lbs or so.

 

Also when I had the '91 Sentra SE-R, which was also a very small car... man I loved that car, but even it dwarfed the 240. I took a picture of them side by side and just couldn't believe how much smaller the Z looked.

 

I dunno... I don't think I'd ever really like to drive a big car again, and that 'manly' BS is just that... BS.

 

Anyways, I have an easier time in crowded parking lots with a small car like the Z

[rudypoochris]

I hate the new cars only for being heavy, I think it is ridiculous. But in the end I guess it just means more powerful motorswaps for Z's

 

BTW gollum I don't think muscle cars run 2.0L turbo fours so, the rules out rally as a basis for american performance.

 

Although I think it would be totally sweet if one of the Big 3 came out with a light american car powered by a 2.5ishL v8's with twin turbos, would be sweet to beat the japanese at their own low displacement game. Alas that won't happen until I become ceo of one of those companies so keep your fingers crossed for now.

 

Note: About the japanese improving the performance and all that. I totally agree, the american companies don't do enough in the way of updating their performance technologies and evolving their cars. Although I see their reasoning, it must be very hard for the Big 3 to justify making a really fast, light, strong car when the majority of the population wants a room on wheels. In japan I think they appreciate cars more for their performance compared to the average joe out here. I could be wrong though.

[MusPuppis]

I have no problem with big cars, it just annoys me when performance oriented cars are huge.

 

Hell, my DD is a 5.0HO swapped F-150 XLT. (single cab). I sit high, I drive smooth, poeple get out of my way.. Ideally, as a DD I'd want a comfortable, mid-sized to full-sized sedan or somesuch. I wouldnt want my Z as my sole and only car. I LOVE it, and I LOVE small cars but nothing beats creature comforts for annoying drives around town in shitty traffic or a long road-trip.

 

Granted, high-end sports cars like a Vette would probably make a fantastic DD, being comfortable, good gas mileage and stupidly fast. Of course, their out of my price range.

[naplesZ]

Now that every-ones had fun bashing them. How about ideas on how two fix them. Like ways to reduce weight. Prices are estimates or what I was able to find. Trying to round up .

Stock mustang 30k weight 3500lbs

wedssport tc005 18in wheel's tires 2500.00 -36lbs

corbeau trs seats 640.00(pair)26lbs -20lbs?

removal of rear seats.. 0.00 -50lbs?

fiberglass tilting front end $2000.00? -200lbs??

----------------- ------------

35,140.00 3194lbs

If you wanted to match the gt500 performance.

Ken Bell 6-14psi kit w/ac intercooler 4900.00 +200???

easy 500hp and torque ------------ ----------------

40,000.00 3400lbs

 

gt500 40,000.00 4000lbs

 

So for ruffly the same price you can have more hp and 600lbs lighter for the same price.

Once again these prices are all guess based on what I could find on line. Fill free to change what you know.

[Moridin]

Here's the rational that normally takes place:

...

 

As to the weights on the regular mustang' date=' they are in the 36**# Range and the GTO is 37**#. If I was going to do one or the other, I'd buy the GTO only because of the cost vs. potential power of the LS2. The GTO has handling/ wheelhop issues and fitting boltons to it has proven a chore, much like working on 98-02 Fbodies. The difference between the GT500 and the regular GT is the Triton V8 stuffed under the GT500s hood, along with the roots type blower used on all the SVT project V8s.

 

...

Mike [/quote']

 

As heavy as the car is, the motor is more than just a standard Triton V8. The block is the same, yes, but the rest of the motor is not. As far as I know at the moment everything in it is forged just like the 03/04 Cobras with improved 4 valve heads. Knowing that the 03/04 Cobras were sometimes making as much as 390HP at the wheels bone stock, I won't be surprised if that's the case with knew GT500. Somewhere between 450 to 475HP at the tires would be my guess. The 03/04's with a typical owner driving them were and are seeing mid to high 12's at the drag strip. The GT500 should be able to best that with an even more prodigious power output than the last Cobra and a supposedly better sorted rear end.

 

My parent's car (now you know my bias), with basic bolt-ons put out 500HP at the wheels on 91 octane with over 400lb ft. of torque from 2000 all the way to 6200RPM. The new car should make quite a bit more than that with the extra .8 liters of displacement.

 

We'll just have to wait and see.

[Moridin]

Now that every-ones had fun bashing them. How about ideas on how two fix them. Like ways to reduce weight. Prices are estimates or what I was able to find. Trying to round up .

Stock mustang 30k weight 3500lbs

wedssport tc005 18in wheel's tires 2500.00 -36lbs

corbeau trs seats 640.00(pair)26lbs -20lbs?

removal of rear seats.. 0.00 -50lbs?

fiberglass tilting front end $2000.00? -200lbs??

----------------- ------------

35' date='140.00 3194lbs

If you wanted to match the gt500 performance.

Ken Bell 6-14psi kit w/ac intercooler 4900.00 +200???

easy 500hp and torque ------------ ----------------

40,000.00 3400lbs

 

gt500 40,000.00 4000lbs

 

So for ruffly the same price you can have more hp and 600lbs lighter for the same price.

Once again these prices are all guess based on what I could find on line. Fill free to change what you know.[/quote']

 

What about labor, dyno time, and tuning?

[naplesZ]

I didn't include labor and tuning because I have no Idea what all that would cost and besides the dyno run the rest could probably be done by quite a few of the members here. I am not one of them. I just someone with to much time on their hands at work who thinks about cars to much.

[MusPuppis]

Alot can be done to reduce the weight, but it comes down to application. **** knows how much weight can be dropped by switching to some ultra light rims, lighter seats, pull out all the a/c crap, remove the heater core, manual windows and door locks, all the sound deadening, carpet, cut whatever you dont need out of the dash (ducting, glovebox, etc). Lexan windows where appropriate, pull the cats off, remove any and all "comforts". Pull the rear and passenger seat belts out, replace the driver's with a good harness (Dunno if that would actually save weight or not..) remove the little dingy lights that tell you a door is open or your belt isnt plugged in, fuel cell, aluminum heads/block (if it doesnt have em already.. I'm unfamiliar).

 

The list is long, but in the end what do you have? A racetrack stang thats essentially a shell.. Ugly as sin and totally unsuited for normal driving.

 

For a normal DD or weekend driver all you have (for the average joe) is maybe lighter seats and rims, perhaps A/C and the back seat. This wouldnt equate to much. I couldnt see more than 100pds but thats really a shot in the dark. I have no idea the actual weights of the equipment are.

 

I like the Mustangs, they perform very well, but for the power and the price (of the GT500 especially) they should do a ****-ton better than they do.

[Gollum]

Well, on the comfort & size topic.... the EVO and STI kill the stang. They're both quite large cars and are ultra light, and they're both very comfortable cars with the needed luxuries like power windows, AC, PS, ect.

 

And rudypoochris, I know it seemed I was implying that the big 3 should race in rally, but was I really meant was that america neededs a race formate like rally where the chassis & drivetrain stay very close in design to stock versions, and then we need people to actually watch it. <--that's the key part. And I think you're right that japanese seem to have more overal respect for performance when they buy a car, but much less percentile can actually afford cars there.

 

And I forget who it was guestimating that 10 year old engines won't be able to pass smog, but that sounds much like what's going on in japan. Most motors either get swapped out or rebuilt between 30-60k. This is why such a small country can quench all our needs for used JDM motors. We're heading down the same road, as NOx will become a big player in future smog, and carbon build up will increase NOx very easily.

 

And there's alot ford could do to lighten the stang from factory. The EVO 9 is practically all aluminium. It's roof, fenders, trunk, hood, and bumpers are all aluminium. CF parts won't save you much weight over aluminium and mistu's choice is very cost effective. The rims on the EVO are amazingly light as is, perfectly suitible for racing. The seats aren'y much heavier than even the lightest race seats, but they use tracks wich add weight. All thier interior piece are fairly light and are mostly there for sound deadening. So why doesn't ford do any of this.

 

I think most of us here have hit the nail on the head.... the consumers...

[Mikelly]

Couple comments here...

 

BrandonZ, you're wrong BIG TIME on the whole smog issue... Anyone who can tune with a laptop and software can get a chevy to pass smog. I'm pretty sure ford has similar piggyback type software to tune Mustangs... Not sure about dodge, but I bet someone in the Viper/ Hemi community has cracked that code as well... Which means mods can be tuned to be emissions friendly... My New Corvette motor is a prime example.

 

The rest of you guys are thinking like HybridZers... Stop. We're talking about $30-40K worth of car. Most of the people I'm refering to as the chief buyers of these cars aren't gonna strip them down of their creature comforts... No, most of them want all that gadgetry (WHich is another plus in the Vette's box, cause it comes WITH IT at 3200#) and luxury/ convenience.

 

Moridin, I don't care how much HP the thing makes with bolt ons... YOu seen what Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford said about tire clearance on the new Mustang chassis? That behemouth can make 600+HP and torque and it still won't mean squat. No, I think this car is gonna take the place of the old supra jokes... You know, the "What does a 600HP, 700HP and 800HP Supra have in common? TWELVES IN THE QUARTER!"

 

So they built a pig that costs over $44K that you'll have to gut to get the weight down on, and you'll have to tub if you want to put any appreciable tire under... So now the friggin' thing is gonna cost you closer to $60K to get it where it should be... Nice... Real Nice...

 

No, great concept, really! It's so far advanced, it escapes me!

 

Mike

[MusPuppis]

No, most of them want all that gadgetry (WHich is another plus in the Vette's box, cause it comes WITH IT at 3200#) and luxury/ convenience

 

Which is why, Vette > Mustangs/Everything else in its price range.

 

The rest of you guys are thinking like HybridZers... Stop. We're talking about $30-40K worth of car. Most of the people I'm refering to as the chief buyers of these cars aren't gonna strip them down of their creature comforts.

 

Thats what I was meaning with my stripdown post. It *can* be done, but what.. 2-5% of the owners (if that? maybe a % of 1%?) are gonna actually do it? And really, to reach the performance of other cars in its price and power range stripping it bare is about all your gonna be able to do aside from just continueing to add power to try and make up for the fact your car is scary heavy. Add in the tire issues (I did not know about those) and it looks like your fighting a losing battle in cost vs. performance. Sure, add a new pulley, jack the PSI up. Sure, add some nitrous or something. Retune it, whatever. Now drop *ALOT* of money to have the ***-end hacked so you can actually hook! Now that your 60-70k deep in this car, hang your head and cry 'cause you didnt rock a Vette, STI, WRX, (insert porsche here), Bimmer, whutevah, from the get-go.

 

Bleh. Drives me nuts, cause I really liked the 05's. I havent had the chance to drive one but I really like they way they look. Aero problems or not, I love retro when its done right. I do have a friend who is stalwart in his beleif that the Mustang, in any of its incarnations from the 64 on up to present day is the single best vehicle ever built and nothing (I wanna stress that, NOTHING) can even begin to touch it. He doesnt live in reality with the rest of us, so atleast this info is nice to knock him off his pedestal a little bit.

[Mikelly]

Don't get me wrong... The retro looks of the 05 Mustang GT is simply an amazing car. It "looks" great. However, a good article was written about that retro "trend" a while back in AutoWeek magazine... Now that they have done the "retro" thing, what next? I mean, Ford is gonna do what they did with every other Mustang and have this car in the product line for the next 10 years. Once that train has sailed, what then? How do they top this thing? Sales are through the roof because they did such a good job with the retro styling...

 

And Michael, I agree with you on the whole aerodynamics thing. They are paying a huge price in the name of retro styling.

 

Mike

[Moridin]

Couple comments here...

Moridin' date=' I don't care how much HP the thing makes with bolt ons... YOu seen what Muscle Mustang and Fast Ford said about tire clearance on the new Mustang chassis? That behemouth can make 600+HP and torque and it still won't mean squat. No, I think this car is gonna take the place of the old supra jokes... You know, the "What does a 600HP, 700HP and 800HP Supra have in common? TWELVES IN THE QUARTER!"

 

Mike [/quote']

 

Nothing a mini-tub can't fix. Honestly, I didn't know about the tire clearance issue. I guess I'm used to the new edge styling cars that can fit 335's with the right wheel combo.

[crazy280]

"approximately" 4000 pounds WTF???

 

That's exactly what I thought! I hate how heavy "performance" cars are getting these days. It's just lazy/cheap engineering in order to turn a profit. My jaw dropped when I read that the new Mini Cooper weighs 2800+ lbs. That is twice as heavy as the original Mini.....let me repeat that.....TWICE AS HEAVY. WTF?

 

My opinion is if Mitsubishi can make a 4-door, 4wd, sports sedan, with all the comforts (not to mention stellar performance) for under $40k, and it weighs under 3200 lbs, then Ford should be able to. Heck, listen to Bastaad, even Dodge got the weight right with the SRT4.

 

For $40k, I'd buy an EVO MR and add the Vishnu kit to it. That would match or beat the new GT500 in accelleration, and STOMP it in handling, for roughly the same price. Plus you'd have sedan-comfort and snow-traction!

 

As for smog laws, Mikelly is totally right. If you tune correctly you should have no problem passing emissions. I tuned my 240z (with an L-series and twin SUs) on the exhaust analyzer at my shop and it passes CA smog sniffer test (even though it doesn't have to), with no cats, no EGR, and no air injection! Personally I don't mind the smog regulations...I like breathing clean air. If you disagree, take a trip to Los Angeles

[BrandonsZ]

If they could build a car that looked awsome, was as safe as a Mercedes, the power of a viper, under 2500lbs, and keep the price to under 20k to boot... Well they'd take our business, but would the rest of the country embrase the car? Or would they only sell a few?

 

1. In order to keep the price down below 20k they have to sell a LOT!

2. In order to have the power of a viper you have to have the gas mileage of a viper.

3. In order to have the safety of a mercedes you have to have the weight of a mercedes.

 

Due to today's regulations to make this car you'd have to have "other cars" that were especially efficient, especially low emmissions, and therefore especially crappy.

 

So let's review

 

1. They are bound to sell cars that people want.

2. They are bound to sell cars that are efficient.

3. They are bound to sell cars that are safe.

= They are bound to sell cars that are especially crappy.

[crazy280]

Nah, those are just excuses. It's not impossible to make a car sell that isn't "crappy". I think Mitsu and Suby got it right with the rally twins. And you can have speed and mileage in the same package, just not in a 4000 lb car. Lotus Elise pulls 12's in the 1/4 and gets ~30 mpg.

My $.02

[bob88]

You guys can bash on the new mustang all you want, but you all know in the end of the day it will outsell all of its competiors combined 10 to 1.

 

Thats all that matters to Ford. They dont car if their car can beat a subaru STi or Mitsu EVO around a road course or at the drag strip.

 

The SRT-4 was a great car, but its a neon, there isnt one at my high school because of that.

 

There is one subaru STi, no EVOs, no 350Zs, no RX8s, ect.

 

There are 8 20005 mustangs, fords doing somthing right

[Gollum]

^ smart lad.

 

I wouldn't say that's ALL that matters to ford though. Ford has yet to produce a good halo car for the company other than the GT500. It will sell stangs for sure, but there aren't any other halo cars at all. You could call the ford GT a halo car, but it's got no cheep sibling for it to actually help sales for. The GT is actaully a good example of ford trying something new. GM in the past has been mostly about quantity sales (wich is changing for the better ala cadillac) and dodge hasn't been drastically different than the two. This helps explain the serious lack of supercars. Call all the american "superbeasts" "supercars" all you want. They're still not ferraris.

 

The mustang will sell well. But I've lots much respect for the stang. Maybe I'm just growning up, but it seems to me the new chassis will never be a viable option for me for any project. It's a shame, beucase I want to like them so bad.

 

BrandonZ made a good point that most people don't realise.

 

Due to today's regulations to make this car you'd have to have "other cars" that were especially efficient, especially low emmissions, and therefore especially crappy.

 

Manufactures must attain a certain "emission average" so in order to have a viper there has to be a neon. For a mustang there has to be a focus, and for the GT500 the "emission friendly" focus. GM has this concept nailed, platform build and make a ton of model variants. Honestly I think the fact that they had so many V8s in thier linup is genious. It's amazing, and it's rare that the buisness side of GM grabs my attention like that (at least i'm honest about my feelings. just know i KNOW they're feelings and not facts).

 

Dang I talk too much.

 

EDIT: Responding to mike just below me

 

The joke me and my brother have is that if it's a convertible V6 it's GOTTTA be a woman. Beucase only an idiot of a man would spend that much on a stang and not get a V8...

 

Majority of miata buyers are women, but they're still popular among racers and are common club racing cars. The percentile of female interest is purelly a looks standpoint imho. I don't factor that into my perception of a car (or at least that's my ideal). Although if one cared about what other people thought, this might be a serious factor.

 

To be fair, a local student here (pinole CA,) got a BMW M5 for 'her' 16th birthday... There are women in every car sale, on the title or not so the argument is moot

 

(i'm just having fun with ya, please be light heared about it 8) )

 

I think though out of all muscle cars, the "girl muscle" car has to be the mustang. The GTO might take the cake for the classics, but over the years the mustang has proved it's appeal to the opposite sex.

[Mikelly]

I read in autoweek just before the release of the 2005 Mustang that fully HALF the buying owners of the FOX Mustang were WOMEN!

 

Wonder how many of those in that school parking lot are driven by young women?

 

Mike

[mtcookson]

After reading all of this, it makes me even more glad that I bought a Toyota MR2 Spyder. 2195 pounds...

 

A bit on the underpowered side, but with only 138 hp and 125 ft. lb. torque it is still faster than most cars with more power. Down the road it'll either get a turbo kit, or a 2ZZ-GE swap with a turbo kit. Damn that'd be fun.