Cheaper to run 10s in civic than a mustang!

[Moridin]

Horsepower Per liter is silly....thats simply a ricer excuse to take focus away from the fact that his car makes very little horsepower in comparison to other larger displacement engines.

 

Wow..gee..you make 150horsepower per liter....but you only make 200 horsepower....thats not impressive.

Gee, missed my point by a mile. Yes, the total power isn't all that great, but I guess you don't understand that these technologies applied to larger displacement motors make a huge difference. Imagine building a V8 that used some of the science that went into making the R6 motor. That would simply be amazing. Given, not all of the technologies apply, but I bet the few that do make a big difference. The same thing goes for the Hondas. It's called advancement. The things the Honda drags guys have done for the automotive world have yet to be fully realized.

Lets take a 5L motor and a 2L motor for example. Imagine that 2L motor making say, 140HP/L NA as a result of some who wanted to push the limit. That's 280HP. Now, originally our 5L motor was making 75HP/L coming to a total of 375HP. Then, with some of the technology and science that went into building the 2L motor, used in the 5L you have something much more powerful. Lets say this technology transfer upped the output to 100HP/L. Now you have 500HP. That's pretty damn good IMO.

There are many more variables that go into this, but I felt to need to explain it from a technology transfer view.

I guess some people have no vision.

[Guest Your Car is Slow]

Uh...they do apply those technologies to larger displacement engines....they just dont do it stock.

 

If you built a 5.7 liter engine with that technolgy....and attempted to produce 200hp per liter...youd have a 1000+hp motor.

 

Sorry...but while that sounds REALLY nifty to you and I...it sure isnt going to sell worth squat to the big automakers....and if they cant turn a profit...it isnt going to get built.

 

Take a look at some of the Pro 5.0 cars....1700 horsepower from a 5.4 liter navigator motor.

 

now im not a math whiz....but thats more than 200hp per liter no?

 

It can be done..and it is done....and the results are simply astounding. But there is no way it will make its way into a production vehicle....thats just stupid.

 

If you think that honda/nissan/toyota have some super secret engine building technology that they are holding secret over the rest of the world...you are sadly mistaken.

 

This is a country full tilt in the latest SUV craze...mpg doesnt mean shit...economy doesnt mean shit. Soccer moms (and dads) want the coolest and neatest (and sometimes largest) things on the road.

 

The kinda crowd that wants a 1000hp corvette or other 2door coupe to be produced stock isnt their target market.

[Mudge]

Yeah, Twin Turbo Vipers are stock right? If a car MFG has to run 9k to turn approximately the same peak HP numbers as a larger car who gives a hoot? So they spent more to make a smaller vehicle try to play catch up with a larger engine that has it EASY. Bearings are going to wear faster, torque is going to suck, and for the most part it will not have the same capabilities of the other car if built up.

 

Just like CPUs are nearing the end of what we can humanly do with silicon technology, building up a 1.3L 1000 HP engine is not going to have long term lastability in a street car, but it can relatively easily be done in a V8 and is done. Local guy even passes smog in his 1000 HP stock PCM car, drives it daily while the Vette sits at home. So while HP per liter does mean something to me, if my cieling on my 2 liter car is a very high revving, narrow powerband, then it is not my flavor for a streetable "race car," I like torque and I dont want to eat the bearings just getting down the track either. For that reason actually some open road racers have been building torquier motors (L98) and just driving around at 4000 RPM over 200 MPH, not something I considered but again the viewpoint is long term wear capabilities. If your driving around at 8,000+ all the time that isn't going to happen.

[Guest livewire23]

Uh...they do apply those technologies to larger displacement engines....they just dont do it stock.

 

As much as ricers tout the greatness of VTEC, its actually technology that will increase fuel economy and improve the powerband. Now that's something that can actually be marketed, but yet I've never seen variable valve timing or lift on a V8. What's up with that?

 

Don't disgard all this technology, there may be some use for it yet.

[Mudge]

Thats why some of us would like to see VVT or something in a V8, Porsche is doing it with thier cars but only one GM engine that I know of to date has it at all, and thats only on the exaust side.

 

I still like big cams on a V8, but this is a way a high output NA could be setup and still pass smog. I'd rather VVT than VTec though. Then we'd want ion sensing ignition and all that fancy crap too.

[BLKMGK]

Variable valve timing has been done on some import V8s I believe. IT was apparently considered for the new 'vette too but was considered too costly and too hard to package. They were able to achieve their goals "the old fashioned way" and not be forced into some of the more bleeding edge technologies. Later JDM 2JZGTE had variable cam timing BTW but all it was apparently good for in that app was improved emissions. Pop the hood on a late IS300 or SC300 and you'll see the variable stuff I believe. The SC400 may also have it and I believe that's a V8. It's the domestic V8s that don't seem to be running it. They're larger displacement and to meet their goals it's not been deemed neccessary I guess. It'll happen eventually just like doing away with the valvetrain and going with directly activated valves - it'll just take forever. I'd LOVE directly actuated valves - imagine the flexability that would bring! It would make VTEC look like pure junk.

[Mudge]

Yep, electronic valve actuation requires a ton of juice though, and basically it is not needed for a STREET car market. So millions of R&D would be considered wasted.

 

With OBD III they are talking encryption (even though they wanted real time satelite uplinking with OBD II), which would mean even if we saw electronic VVT it would be a beach trying to play with it. Of course there is always turbo/supercharging, which brings the headroom up considerably in power levels and still passing smog, but I've liked NA stuff for so long due to simplicity and "set it and forget it" reliability. With a V8 making 500 or more HP sheesh, thats enough for me, for awhile. Car nerds like us dream of these kind of things but lets be realistic, it would cost a ton of dough to set something up, being new it would probably be problematic (ok were talking domestic here since they are the ones not touching new-tech as much), and only a handfull of people would really care. If we DID see it, I would bet we'd see it on the 4s and 6s, not so much the 8s - because it would just add too much HP and the gov would probably be pissed once people started hacking into thier cars and making 1000 HP and still passing smog. Thats looking at the upper end of the spectrum but...

[Mike kZ]

I read that GM is coming out with variable valve timing on their V8s in '04 or '05

[SleeperZ]

Of course there is always turbo/supercharging, which brings the headroom up considerably in power levels and still passing smog, but I've liked NA stuff for so long due to simplicity and "set it and forget it" reliability. With a V8 making 500 or more HP sheesh, thats enough for me, for awhile.

 

That's funny about the "set it and forget" thing. With my old school vehicles with carbs and mechanical timing advance, it's never "set and forget". I was always have to adjust timing to compensate for point wear, and the carbs were constantly needing idle mixture adjustments and leak fixes (to pass emissions anyway). I've never had to time my EFI vehicles - that truly IS set it and forget it. And set the idle mixture - IT STAYS!

[Guest livewire23]

because it would just add too much HP and the gov would probably be pissed once people started hacking into thier cars and making 1000 HP and still passing smog.

 

Wouldn't that be funny though? 8)

[Mudge]

I've never had to time my EFI vehicles - that truly IS set it and forget it. And set the idle mixture - IT STAYS!

 

Yep, I dont like carbs, I'm an EFI weenie.

 

Remember the gov would love to weld those hoods shut, with these 100,000 mile tuneups cars are doing now.

[Moridin]

I see some of you understood what I was writing. VTEC has been the single most prominent innovation from Honda throughout the years. The guys racing these cars have really pushed it to the limit though. They've learned more about it than most ever will and thus, transfered it on to other motors and vehicles.

 

Now, for those of you that don't know, GM's new V6 and V8 (at least the one in the XLR and Vette) are based on a lot of these "import" technologies. Both are quad cam with variable valve timing. The V8 is also going to have displacement on demand (basically shuts down four of the cylinders while cruising). I've heard rumors that this motor will get way better mpg and emissions than the LS1 and LS6, yet will be strong enough in the top of the line Vette to face off with the Viper. Now if this isn't an example of my little scenario earlier, than I don't know what is. I also forgot to add that these little FWD dragsters are contributing to half shaft development.

 

I guess what I really wanted to say is that these small displacement dragsters and racers contribute a lot to the automotive world. Many of the stuff that has been pioneered with them is now being used in the sport compact arena. Those technologies and techniques are now making it into the bigger displacement motors.

[BayAreaZT]

I've never seen variable valve timing or lift on a V8

 

How bout BMWs 7 series with valvetronic technology.

The VANOS system uses computer control to vary the position of the camshafts so valve opening will be advanced or retarded. By changing when the valves open and close, the engine can operate at optimum efficiency throughout the rpm range. By adding a few parts between the camshafts and the intake valves, BMW now varies the lift of the valve as well........At idle, the valves barely open. At high rpm and full load, the valves open fully. The computer can change the lift by rotating the eccentric in just 0.3 seconds. .....BMW took advantage of the Valvetronic system to design a special variable length intake manifold. Changing the length of the air intake runners for different engine speeds allows for maximum airflow into the engine and therefore more power.

 

This is some pretty amazing stuff. Getting close to directly actuated valves

[Moridin]

BMW makes some awesome stuff. I believe the Porsche twin turbo has some cool stuff too. Basically, as I understand it, you can leave it in 6th and drive around like that, because of the valve technology.

 

Oh, I also wanted to add some stuff about CART and Indy, but especially CART. Last years motors, before they went all Ford in the series, were pushing 800HP out of 2.6L. Of course, this was turbocharged, but with what they learned the new GM Global V6 may have a twin turbo model.

[Mudge]

Now, for those of you that don't know, GM's new V6 and V8 (at least the one in the XLR and Vette) are based on a lot of these "import" technologies. Both are quad cam with variable valve timing.

 

Thats news to me, people are still arguing over what the body is going to look like (the recent Photoshop claims). As for power claims I hear 410-415 HP estimated for the base model Vette, but its all speculation IMO.

[Guest tt350]

Whoa! That bimmer motor is nice. Is it the 4.5 liter one. And which years did it come in (or is it the brand new one)? Can you smell a BMWZ comin on? I can

 

That would be one hellva an engine to turbocharge. It would also be one helluva an engine to tune.

[Moridin]

I'll try to find that article from Car Craft about the new V6. There is actually a twin turbo model pushing 370HP. I hear that the new Vette and XLR motors are based on that cool V16 that Cadillac was working on. Really awesome design. They are supposed to chop it in half to make the V8. Motor Trend or Car and Driver had an article about that.

[Mudge]

DOHC V engines are going to be a tight squeeze, unless maybe they are 60º setups, the above motor looks pretty wide though.

[Guest livewire23]

that there looks like its almost a 90, hey, how'd you get the degree symbol? ° Oh, there it is. Anyway, that looks like it might even be a 90° setup there. Definately very wide.

[BLKMGK]

My understanding was that GM was NOT going to go quad cam on the 'vette but that might have had to do with the last iteration. The concern I had heard was cost and packaging. The ZR1 for instance was quite advanced but costly. People are just now really getting into modifying that motor (from what I understand) and the power levels they're reaching are SICK! I wish the ZR1 motor was more common as forced induction on that motor rocks!

 

I'll never forget an argument I had with a twit on Supraforums about his claim that OHC and quad cam motors always made less torque. He seemed to feel there was something magic about 2 more valves that killed torque and that GM would never put this on their V8s. I brought up the ZR1 and someone else pointed out about 4 motors of equal displacement to current single cam GM offerings that made more torque with more valves and he didn't have an answer

 

I too am an EFI guy. I love computers and can understand EFI, carbs just don't work as well. My current carb setup on the Z was just to work bugs out - my not being able to get the silly secondaries working is a sure sign that I don't know WTF to do with a carb. AEM should have a GM V8 ECU out soon and when they do the Z will go EFI - after I've made the rear bulletproof. I SO look forward to that. Looking back I actually wish I'd gone with a 2JZ and sometimes I even wonder how a Turbo L6 might have been. <shrug> Oh well!