bjhines Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I have a brand new long nose R180 39:11 gears with a BIG K embossed on the top of the housing... it fits an '83 Maxima I think...??? I know it was for a later model car.... but I have it and I have attemped to install it in my 1972 240Z using the snap in halfshafts from a 280Z... I have come to realize that the R200 snap in style halfshafts are NOT the same as whatever was on the car this was made to fit... The 280Z halfshafts have 29 splines on the side flange. The K-R180 diff seems to accept a 25 spline shaft. The drivers side R200 splined output shaft is considerably shorter than the passenger side... the R180 seems to require the same lengnth on BOTH sides.... I figure I need to get side flanges from a 1983 Maxima??? to fit the late model R180... But can the Maxima??? side flanges be mated to 240-280Z style driveshafts..... Any help would ne greatly appreciated.. I have the day off tomorrow soo I can make a trip to the JY... I am trying to get the car ready for Sebring Jan 21st and 22nd... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zcarnut Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I have a brand new long nose R180 39:11 gears with a BIG K embossed on the top of the housing... it fits an '83 Maxima I think...??? I know it was for a later model car.... but I have it and I have attempted to install it in my 1972 240Z using the snap in halfshafts from a 280Z... I have come to realize that the R200 snap in style halfshafts are NOT the same as whatever was on the car this was made to fit... The 280Z halfshafts have 29 splines on the side flange. The K-R180 diff seems to accept a 25 spline shaft. The drivers side R200 splined output shaft is considerably shorter than the passenger side... the R180 seems to require the same length on BOTH sides.... I figure I need to get side flanges from a 1983 Maxima??? to fit the late model R180... But can the Maxima??? side flanges be mated to 240-280Z style driveshafts..... The 1981-84 Maxima only used CV axles which snapped into its R180 diff. All the Z cars that used the R180 diff and the u-joint axles used a single bolt to secure the inboard axle flange into the diff. Although the R180 u-joint axles will fit into your K type R180 diff, there is nothing to secure them unless you machine a grove in the spline section of them for the internal C-clip in the R180 K diff. So, here’s an opportunity to use CV axles instead of the u-joint axles. You can use the CV axles from a 81-84 Maxima along with the splined companion pieces that will connect to your 240Z stub axles. The CV axles are made with the piece that fits into your diff, hence there is no separate flange piece. If you can’t find a Maxima, then look for a 280ZX 2+2 automatic which also had an R180 diff with CV axles. As you noticed, the R180 requires symmetrical axles, and indeed the R180 CV axles are the same, so there is no “left side†or “right side†axle, unlike the R200 CV axle. Using a R180 with CV axles in an early Z car has been well discussed here before. I’ll see if I can find some of my previous posts on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 I have a quick thought.... I need to go to my pile of dead and dying R180s and pull an output stub... I am absolutely positive that the "bolt in" stubs will not be long enough to engage the locking ring... Here is a thought.... tell me where this might go wrong... I take 2 sets of drive stubs out of 2 old 240Z R180s... I use the best pair as my "custom" stub flanges... Then I cut a worn spline set up to use as "splined nuts" that are welded to the center bolt in the right position to just slip past the locking ring to keep the stub flanges against the oil seals... the bolt may rattle around a little... but as long as it keeps slight tension in contact with the oil seal I would be ok...I will have to remember to chamfer the splines on both ends of the nuts soo I can get them in AND out again. then I dont have to worry about machine work..I have a steel cutoff saw, a band saw, and a freaking PILE of old R180s with plenty of extra stubs.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zcarnut Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I have a quick thought.... I need to go to my pile of dead and dying R180s and pull an output stub... I am absolutely positive that the "bolt in" stubs will not be long enough to engage the locking ring.... You need to look at the later R180 u-joint axles. The 240Z R180 axles have a flange on both ends and mates with a separate flange piece that fits into the differential (where it is secured with one bolt). The 1974 260Z and later R180 axles do not use this separate flange piece. The diff end of the axle just slides into the diff where it is secured with a single bolt. Here's a pic of the later R180 axle from a 280ZX FSM: http://home.comcast.net/~zcarfan/AxleShaft.jpg I’m pretty sure it will be long enough to cut a grove for the c-clip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 First off.... If they use a BOLT to secure the stub...the STUB WILL NOT BE LONG ENOUGH TO ENGAGE THE LOCKING RING. this is a fact... so I do not believe the 260Z stubs will get me anywhere but into the same problems. ok.... I am trying to consolodate parts in my garage into my various operational Z cars... I have a pile of good, new, and slightly used parts that I keep collecting... They are just sitting on my shelves.... seeing how my wife wants a new house... I am trying to cull the collection... the last thing I need to do is to begin collecting even more parts that I may or may not be able to use... Lets be real... there are soo few of the ONE year model 260Zs left that I could wait months to find those stubs... and there is a good chance that I will have to try a few times to actually get the correct parts... There has to be an answer in my existing parts pile... I was measuring the depth of the locking ring in the differential last nite.... It appears that the "normal" 240Z stubs are EXACTLY the right depth to just contact the locking ring when they are pushed against the seal face... This means that I can cut a slice off another stub shaft like you would slice a bannana for cereal... It cannot be very thick... but it can be at least a quarter inch thick... Then I weld that to one of the original 240Z stub shaft retaining bolts with just enough clearance/slop to allow it to go past the locking ring...ie. the slop would be equal to the thickness of the locking ring... Obviously the bolt would not be removable without grinding or cutting the splined nut/bannana slice off... but soo what... can pop the assembly in and out just like it is supposed to work. this would allow me to LOCK the side flanges in without any trouble at all... I would simply slide them in.. and then tap the end of the bolt to drive the splined bannana slice past the lock ring... Seeing how Nissan made the older and newer style stubs with similar dimensions except for the extra material for the retaining grove ... I can just add the bannana slice without racking up any time or money in machine shop time... this appears to be a very low tech.. relatively easy solution... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zcarnut Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 First off.... If they use a BOLT to secure the stub...the STUB WILL NOT BE LONG ENOUGH TO ENGAGE THE LOCKING RING....... No need to yell at me.... I was only trying to help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 sorry.... I did not mean to come off as unappreciative of your input... I really do appreciate all of the responses... I simply meant to emphasize... I found the easy way.. It is in the car and I made use of my original 240Z bolt in style stubs...!!!!! I dissassembled the carriers of the new and an old differential. The side gears are different dimensions... soo I could not switch gears... BUT!!!! the old style end gears had a threaded insert pressed into them to receive the axle centerbolt. I simply pounded the insert out of the old side gears and pounded it into the new side gears... minus the snap ring.. I reassembled the brand new carrier with the inserts in place and I left out the odd little thingy around the center pin that keeps the the stubs from inserting too far and destroying the outer seals. I reassembled the carrier into the diff housing and it now accepts center bolt style stubs with 4 turns of the bolt engaging threads and no bolt protrusion into the carrier parts... It is PERFECT... essentially a 1 hour project.... DONE!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 I was measuring the depth of the locking ring in the differential last nite.... I appears that the "normal" 240Z stubs are EXACTLY the right depth to just contact the locking ring when they are pushed against the seal face... This means that I can cut a slice off another stub shaft like you would slice a bannana for cereal... It cannot be very thick... but it can be at least a quarter inch thick... Then I weld that to one of the original 240Z stub shaft retaining bolts with just enough clearance/slop to allow it to go past the locking ring...ie. the slop would be equal to the thickness of the locking ring... Another alternative is to drill and tap that "slice" so it can be held in place by the bolt going through the stub axle. I used to have a number of these "slices" (us west coast racers call them buttons) that are used just for this purpose. Be sure to bevel the edges of the button so it can be inserted through the snap ring and give the snap ring a groove to sit in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 10, 2006 Author Share Posted January 10, 2006 Tried that route...not goona happen.. It becomes obvious upon further inspection that the hole is all the way through... too large to tap using the existing bolt... there is no material to cut that does not have this hole... You certainly don't want to even get into making a bigger bolt fit.. But if you read my above post.. I simply transferred the threaded insert from an old set of side gears into the brand new K series side gears... And no.. you cannot switch side gears.. The gears are much thicker on the late model..no go..either way you try to swap.. gears must stay with original case.. As it turns out.. the inserts fit only a few millimeters into the sidegears... they are self broaching inserts made of a softer steel than the side gears... they popped into the new side gears and engaged the splines with a few taps from a hammer... I was worried that once the side stubs were installed and the bolt was tightened... it would cause the stub flanges to crash into the seals or worse... this is not the case... the shouldered area on the early stubs is in exactly the right place on the new K series differential... they fit against the seals at exactly the same clearance as the original fit... of course if anyone had a problem with this... they could stack washers to allow torque on the centerbolt and good sealing around the center washer.. but I had no problem... I will post pictures of the dissasembled carriers and the parts tonite....as well as the completed unit with early style stubs installed and bolted tight and sealed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Tried that route...not goona happen.. It becomes obvious upon further inspection that the hole is all the way through too large to tap using the existing bolt.. there is no material to cut that does not have this hole... You certainly don't want to even get into making a bigger bolt fit.. OK, I understand you're (or my) confusion. Forget your original "slice" idea from an existing stub axle. In the past I just used bar stock, turned it down to the correct diameter, beveled and cut a 3/8" thick slice, drilled, and then tapped the center hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 ok.... I am not trying to be confrontational....but no...you are wrong... you should read my posts completely...not just the first 2 sentences... Bar stock turned down would not work without broaching splines as well.... you might as well have some custom CV axles made.. You need to think about the shapes and just what has to be done to get your "button" to engage the snap ring... It absolutely must be splined to get in there and lock past the snap ring.... You cannot use "bar stock" turned on a lathe to do this.... by the time you turn it down to fit down the hole... you will have no material in the grooves to contact and engage the ring...unless you cut the splines out of the side gear past the snap ring... but then what would keep the "button" from rotating when you went to put the bolt in... in fact this would allow the "button" to possibly come out and ruin your brand new differential... and besides... you must have positive engagement of the retaining bolt in order to compress the oil seal under the washer on the retaining bolt. and why in the hell would you make a "BUTTON" anyway.... Nissan or FHI already made the right buttons and installed them in all the old style 240Z rear ends... simply pop them out of old side gears and pop them into new side gears... sooo feaking simple I cannot believe I am the only one who has figured this out.... I am definitely making a trip to the JY this week... I need to find out what the spline count is on the SUBAROOO R160/180 LSD units.... if it is 25 spline then I am going to start selling my knowledge... I am REALLY surprised that no one has even attempted to do what I have just done.... I used only hand tools I could put in my 2 pockets to move parts from an old R180 to a new K-R180.... I made this changeover in less than an hour... with stock parts with NO MODIFICATIONS TO ANYTHING. NO LATHE, NO PRESS, NO GRINDING..... I am absolutely positive that this will work on any R180 with 25 spline stubs.... including later model Maximas, 200SXs, and some Subarooos. I began this morning with the intention of swapping side gears OR carriers... the side gears are different...cannot be swapped at all... swapping the carrier would have required resetting backlash and major work pressing and repressing bearings until everything was correctly set up... NO friggin way... not on a brand new factory set up rear end. It turns out that all you need is the threaded "buttons" the factory provides in the old rear ends... they pop right into the newer style side gears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 I posted some pics to the members gallery... check em out. This is how the new K-R180 carrier was originally set up. http://album.hybridz.org/showphoto.php?photo=5392&size=big&cat=500&page=1 this is it completed with bolt on "buttons" installed. http://album.hybridz.org/showphoto.php?photo=5393&size=big&cat=500&page=1 Here is the "button" installed in the new side gear. http://album.hybridz.org/showphoto.php?photo=5384&size=big&cat=500&page=2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Bar stock turned down would not work without broaching splines as well.... you might as well have some custom CV axles made.. I read all the sentences in your posts. I guess racing for almost ten years using the buttons as I describe them doesn't count for much. The buttons have worked fine for me, Bryan Lampe (past Cal Club ITS champ), John Williamson (past Cal Club BSP champ), and many other 240Z racers here on the west coast. Shoot, we even sometimes run the diff side stub axles just pushed in without any bolt or clip if we run out of time swapping diffs between sessions or are helping another racer out by loaning them our diff. Diff might get a little greasy, but we never had a halfshaft pop out. But hey, what do we know. Do whatever you want, I was just offering some advice and I wasn't trying convince you one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 Well that went well... bjhines, I'm sure you didn't mean to come off as it reads in the text, but you're blazing new territory here and the help you did get from others was about as good as I'd expect, given what you were trying to accomplish, then trying to explain what the solution was... Take a deep breath. Most of us are here to help and learn... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted January 11, 2006 Author Share Posted January 11, 2006 I'll start a new instuctional thread and let this one die... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted January 11, 2006 Share Posted January 11, 2006 :2thumbs: Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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