bjhines Posted July 11, 2006 Author Share Posted July 11, 2006 Here are some pics of progress.... I have clad the frame rails in 14g pre punched angle... I chose this material because it allows for easy rosette welding... I had to pull the various dents and waves out of the bottom of the rails first... PAIN IN THE ASS!!!!! Here is the critical crossmember mounting point... It is flatter and stiffer than ever... I will add a small strip to the bottom to fully cover the bottom side with holes... right where the crossmember mounts... I was thinking about using low cut angle to the outside... I used the tube with thru-bolts for the sway bar mount modification ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted July 11, 2006 Share Posted July 11, 2006 good looking progress. Another name for the "rosette" weld is a plug weld... you probably knew that thought. Indeed it makes a good way of joining metals if the base metal is thicker than the cover metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted July 12, 2006 Author Share Posted July 12, 2006 The clading metal is 14g .... I think the frame rails are more like 18-20g... I was really surprised at the heavy wear and tear the frame rails had endured in a realatively low mileage and unwrecked car... The frame rails are thin box sections with internal gussets for the main attachment points... TC, sway bar, and crossmember... Mine had popped most of the spot welds forward of the crossmember.. on the outside lip... The mounting surface for the front crossmember was depressed into the bottom of the rails... the outside lip was flexed and bent as well... The front edge of the TC bucket had pulled downward on the bottom of the frame rail and left almost an 1/8" gap at the front... Boxing in the structure was realtively easy... but flattening out the bottom of the frame rails and rewelding the spots was labor intensive... I still have some work to do in this area.... but it is almost complete... Here are some more pics for tonite.... The lip to complete the mounting surface for the crossmember... The finnished lower frome rial crossmember mounting surface... Trial fit of the sway bar mounts.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 Another few shots... I was tinkering again this evening... Completed reinforcing for the crossmember mounting area... 16g sheet metal triangle gussets.... These are a lot lighter than using another strip of angle or filler between the tower pressing and the top lip of the frame rail... .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 your welds are looing better O' young padiwan welder...you are coming in better union with the weld force!!! J/K... I know MIG is hard on thin metal...I did it on mostly 1/4" and 3/8" steel for qualifications. I did a few thinner things like on yard art and other similar stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 Why thank you!!!!! ... I still get blow outs in the thin stuff... I can easily fill them in but it gets sloppy looking... I spend way too much time making the parts fit right... because when I start welding... the nice edges get melted back anyway.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 14, 2006 Share Posted July 14, 2006 Swaybar mount looks plenty strong. Rail modification with the angle is interesting. Not sure I'm on board with the gussets at the bottom of the strut tower though. I think it needs bracing up top. My impression is that the weak area there is the upper frame rail. Yeah the strut tower is attached to the lower frame rail (or almost anyway), but I think the part that's really flexing is the top rail. I'd assume you'll have some sort of strut tower bracing up there too, just not sure how much the gussets will help out. The thing rolling around in the back of my brain right now that kind of ties into this is how to get an X in there to tie the upper and lower frame rails together. Looks hard to do in the core support where I had originally envisioned it. Might have to cut a bunch of the support out, do the X, then rebuild it back up. Or maybe just do something else entirely. There might be just enough space between the radiator and the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted July 14, 2006 Author Share Posted July 14, 2006 JM That sounds very interesting... can you draw it for us? rough idea... I am planning on top tower bracing with the roll cage and removable triangle bracing... I am also tieing the sway bar mount location across to the top of the opposite strut tower.... as Tube80Z suggested... this will be removable and bolted in with the sway bar bolts... The gussets are to eliminate any side to side flexing between the strut tower pressing and the lower frame rail... the form of the gussets is an involuted continuation of the lip on the side of the strut pressing... Here is the gusset for the back of the TC bucket... I am also planning on rocker tie ins... and possibly K bracing the crossmember... I have to think of how to keep this light as well... I would fill the frame rails with foam if I was not worried about rust.... ANyway... here is the completed gusseting for the inside of the frame rails... I added lightening holes to match the theme... ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 I went out and took a few pics. Hopefully this will explain the X idea. The first one shows where the X would go, the second shows where the plates would attach, the third shows where the plates would go if it was behind the radiator. Looking at the upper frame rails, they get really low profile and wide right on the fore side of the core support. Makes me think that this isn't the best place to attach them. Putting them aft of the core support makes more sense, but then theres some pretty serious clearance issues with the engine that would have to be measured out carefully, and I'd have to make my puller fan a pusher. Kinda rethinking the whole thing, or thinking that I should do it in front to the inside of the raised area where the vent elbows attach, but this means that the upper part of the X doesn't actually attach to a frame rail, so that wouldn't necessarily defeat the purpose, but probably wouldn't be as strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted July 15, 2006 Author Share Posted July 15, 2006 I found some NEAT STUFF!!!!.... If it were not for the obvious rust issues.... I am seriously thinking about getting INTO my rockers and really rust proofing them....sand blast, phoshoric acid, POR etc.... then I would fill them... Oddly enough I had an aquaintance that was a major automotive audio installer... His shop used foam(and fiberboard) to stiffen the interior of their show cars... It made the "impact" a lot harder.... He did some of that in a few road going customers cars.. and they had worked out neat tricks to ensure water drainage... they taped all seams and corners.. leaving a gap under the tape. I found it in 7.6 oz tubes $31 with a $52 dispenser(ouch)... Terocore structural foam at the bottom... http://www.crestnetsales.com/foams.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 It's been discussed before. It works, there is stuff that is for sound dampening, and there is other "structural foam" that is for stiffening. The problem is that once it's in there repairing rust or that sort of thing is pretty much impossible. I think Cary had that done to a car and ended up scrapping it when it rusted out. I had found some online that was supposedly waterproof, so yeah if you rustproofed the hell out of it and then put that in should do OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZROSSA Posted July 15, 2006 Share Posted July 15, 2006 John, I dont think that doing any bracing forward of the strut will gain you anything but weight. Why not mount the engine solidly and transfer the loads through it? Douglas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Gotta disagree that bracing forward of the strut is useless. The engine compartment is 4 frame rails, uppers and lowers. In the back it connects around the A pillar, and down to the lowers, and uses the cowl torque box on top. In the front it has the rad core support to keep all 4 frame members in line. IMO the core support is a weak spot, as evidenced by repeatedly tearing up radiators in my own car. If the front frame rails are bending enough to cause the tanks on a brass radiator to leak, then that bending would also probably be causing changes in the camber, allowing the frame rails to flex into a parallelogram shape under cornering loads. Also the front swaybar tends to rip apart the frame rail, certainly you could see the benefit of reinforcing this area, even though it is forward of the strut tower. Solid mounting the drivetrain is a good idea for a race car and does transfer chassis loads through the engine and transmission structures. Unfortunately the transmission mount isn't in a particularly good location to put the loads into the chassis, being part of the non-reinforced sheet metal tranny tunnel. The engine (at least stock) is on the tall pedestals of the front crossmember and that also seems like a suspect structure to put really major loads through. I'm sure it would help, but it would be a lot better with a trans crossmember that attached to the subframe and a front crossmember that was a little more stout. That's my untested estimation anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruxGNZ Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Jon, Maybe these pictures will help to further explain the "X" idea. X 1 X 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 16, 2006 Share Posted July 16, 2006 Uh... yeah. That's a bit more bitchin than I was thinking. I was thinking of strengthening the existing setup, not completely replacing it. Looks like they were on the same wavelength though, huh??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted July 17, 2006 Author Share Posted July 17, 2006 more progress with pics... This is the front strut tower reinforcement bar.... this continues through the firewall and into the font of the A-pillar bar.... that will continue through the door x... and on to the rear strut tower.... ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 I did a little reinforcment to the firewall with some u-channel in 12g.... rocker rail to TC bucket brace tube.... .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 Gotta disagree that bracing forward of the strut is useless. The engine compartment is 4 frame rails, uppers and lowers. In the back it connects around the A pillar, and down to the lowers, and uses the cowl torque box on top. In the front it has the rad core support to keep all 4 frame members in line. IMO the core support is a weak spot, as evidenced by repeatedly tearing up radiators in my own car. If the front frame rails are bending enough to cause the tanks on a brass radiator to leak, then that bending would also probably be causing changes in the camber, allowing the frame rails to flex into a parallelogram shape under cornering loads. Also the front swaybar tends to rip apart the frame rail, certainly you could see the benefit of reinforcing this area, even though it is forward of the strut tower. OK did some thinking, some emailing and some searching and I need to amend this a bit. IF, and that's a big if, you can get the strut towers to keep from moving via strut braces and all that, then bracing forward of the sway bar mounts isn't really necessary. The sway bar mounts really need some structure and they are in front of the strut towers, as we've seen with bj's and my project, the sway bar can really tear up the front rails. All the loads come into the frame rails via the suspension, so if it's possible to make the chassis stiff enough to support those loads then there shouldn't be a reason to need the big X in the front. So I am going to downsize my X and it's placement will be made easier as it's purpose will be to extend the life of the radiator and not to strengthen the frame rails, and I'm going to try and tie into the upper frame rail from the lower section of the crossmember, similarly to the rocker to upper rail bracing that I've already done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted July 19, 2006 Author Share Posted July 19, 2006 JM.... that is exactly what was going through my mind.... X bracing made of cheap light tubing that bolts in... with no heavy duty mounting plates.. just some welded tabs for bolt holes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heavy85 Posted July 19, 2006 Share Posted July 19, 2006 OK did some thinking' date=' some emailing and some searching and I need to amend this a bit. IF, and that's a big if, you can get the strut towers to keep from moving via strut braces and all that, then bracing forward of the sway bar mounts isn't really necessary. The sway bar mounts really need some structure and they are in front of the strut towers, as we've seen with bj's and my project, the sway bar can really tear up the front rails. All the loads come into the frame rails via the suspension, so if it's possible to make the chassis stiff enough to support those loads then there shouldn't be a reason to need the big X in the front. [/quote'] That's exactly what I was about to reply but glad you realized it first. I think tie into the a-pillars like the pics above plus to the middle of the firewall would do it. I also think a tube from the strut tower down rearward to where the frame rail meets the firewall would help with vertical stiffness but the steering shaft gets in the way on the drivers side. Now for the radiator life why dont you just make it float better? If you notice a lot of (most?) radiators rest in a piece of rubber at the bottom then a u-channel at the top keeps it from falling off without really sinching it down. This is so the radiator is free expand and contract with temperature and to avoid frame deflections transferring into the radiator. Would be a simper and lower weight solution. Cameron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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