4.0L LD V07 block, lots of pictures, and long

[rayaapp2]

So I don't hijack the other thread anymore:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=112440

 

Jerry @ http://www.zraceproducts.com

Actually there isn't much there accept for pictures, but you can e-mail Jerry about his motor.

 

 

 

 

My project pictures are on the previous post.

 

http://www.ozdat.com/ozdatonline/enginedesign/

 

I would like to see if anyone has used DAW's BMW head bolt solution. What are the specs for that bolt? What engines, and model did they come from?

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread...&highlight=DAW

In the spirit of Hybrid Z I'm offering some food for thought. The problem with putting the LD28 crank (stroke = 83mm) into the L28 block is that it's too cramped in that vertically-challenged block. The standard conversion uses Z24 or KA24 pistons (modified) with L24 rods (133mm). This gives a rod/stroke ratio of 133/83 = 1.6024' date=' which sucks. I'm not going to go into rod/stroke and performance here, read-up on your own, but that's good for a truck, not a performance unit that could hit the track.

 

OK...so here's the crux, I crunched the numbers prior to taking this project on and I decided it was worthwhile, I consulted NISMO and they said "forget it".

 

So, take a LD28 engine and get rid of the cyl head, cast iron and it weighs a ton! Get rid of the diesel fuel pump and front cover (keep the water pump), keep the oil-to-water cooling unit on the oil filter assy. Massive alternator unit has an integral vacuum pump on its tail-end, could be useful if going turbo. Specs on internals: 84.5mm bore, 140mm rods, massive, with 1" floating wrist pins (not unlike a set of rods available from NISMO). Compression ht of pistons = 46.5mm and that's alot. Block ht. is the same as L20B and that's where the front cover is going to come from for our hybrid engine.

So, the first phase of my experimentation was to put a N42/N47 series cyl head onto the LD28 block. This requires the aluminum head to be drilled for a 10mm headbolt to a 12mm head bolt. Nothing special here, most of it was done by hand. Head bolts were from BMW, some washered, 3.0 inline 6 cyl or 2.5 4 cyl (I think); but they were the right thread pitch and length, and 12mm dia. Reuse the diesel head gasket. Said head makes about 9.8:1 as I recall. L20B front cover and LD28 water pump will go together with a bit of grinding to the water pump.

 

Anyway, it runs good. Presently it's coupled to an L3N71B A/T. One notable quirk is that the diesel A/T has a LOW stall speed.

Luckily, with the good compression ratio, it's ready to jump off the line with good response and torque.

 

So, rod/stroke @ 140/83 = 1.686, better already than the L28 block/LD28 crank hybrid, and that's with a HUGE compression ht of 46.5mm on those diesel pistons.

 

Stage II is to fit a P90/P90A head to the LD28 shortblock and turbocharge.

 

Stage III is to overbore the LD28 and fit with longer rods and pistons with more std compression hts; let's choose L28ET pistons (bore =86mm, dish = 10.9cc, comp. ht.= 38.1mm). So, with comp. ht. 46.5 - 38.1 = 8.4mm; then you can add 8.4 to the rod length of 140mm and that's = 148.4. Well, the closest Nissan rod is the 148.6mm rod from the Z22E engine (not to be confused with the Z22S truck engine with its 146mm rod), and there you have it.

DAW[/quote']

 

I've got a spare block thanks to another local member. On top of which this is not the first attempt by anyone to go beyond 89mm. The diesel block can go to 104mm effectively making it a 4L. Problem with that is then you do have to do something about strengthening the cylinder walls. I just don't know at what point that is. The diesel walls are much thicker... because it's diesel. The specs for the diesel are not the same as the maximum bore specs for a gas engine.

 

I have already spoken to Carrillo about custom rods and to Ross about the pistons' date=' rings, and pins. I have the L20B rods, but they aren't looking to beefy being the same size as L24 rods just much longer.

 

It's turbo'd so I'm not pushing the CR. maybe 9:1. Give me enough low end torque while the boost is coming on.

 

Custom gasket... I'm still searching. I may end up doing it the old school way with the copper rings or something.

 

I'm sending the head off to a local machinist that has been working on them since the 80's.

 

 

(My misinformation sorry)

My head will end up getting torqued to 120lbs... I believe MY head bolts are 14mm bolts for the diesel block and the stock turbo/na petrol bolts are 12mm. That is why the cam towers must be machined. The stock ones are 10mm and the diesel ones are 12mm.

 

I've spoken with Ben and his technician at Jim Wolfe Technologies. They've been doing this long before I knew what a zcar was. Nothing new. As I said I'm not the first and some have built 4L...In fact take a good look at Jerry's car...

http://www.zraceproducts.com

I'm waiting for him to post a dyno sheet. He claims to have already made 600hp before the increase in displacement. He claims more now.

 

 

Timing control is also in the works.

 

Lots of work to do still.

 

The rod:stroke is exactly why I am using the LD block, I found out later it could be bored. I've got to start messing around with this other diesel block.

 

Pin height would be moved to 40.05mm and create a 0mm deck height. w/1mm gasket and my P90a head that's just above 9:1 if I remember right

 

 

Anyway your squeezen my secrets out now..[/quote']

 

 

also this:

Just so we don't hijack this thread any further than we already do. Keep us updated in another thread about your personal project. I don't see the "4L" Z in the website or any other high displacement I6 Z car' date=' it was hidden somewhere? From what I have heard from "1 fast z", who sonic tested 2 LD blocks, an LD block can only be safely over bored 2mm before requiring special liners.

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread...sel+block% 22 [/quote']

 

LD28 block, is 83mm bore, and I sonic tested TWO blocks, and without sleeves, you can ONLY do a 2 mil over, that will only get you two a ~2.95 liter. So your saying you did a 7 mill over bore, on cylinders that are only .160" thick STOCK? Yea, this only worked cause you sleeved it, CANT be done without sleeving it mack, TOLD YA!

 

I'm not trying to fight anyone here so let's try and keep it civil. I have PM'd a few of you guys to try and get some answers. Jim Wolf Technologies is telling me the same thing as Jerry McGrath. Some of you are telling me that what they're telling me is bull. I will get to talk personally to Jim Wolf's tech tomorrow morning whereas before I was getting my info second hand through Ben Pila. I just want a few opinions and explanations are here so I can sort the facts out.

 

I will have my spare block bored out 9.5mm and see where that puts me. If I have to sleeve so be it, but from what I am told this shouldn't be necessary.

[1 fast z]

Yea, I HAVE personally SONIC tested two LD blocks, with my Certified Sonic Tester. I was getting a .150" Reading in ALOT of areas of the cylinders, and that is towards the top of the bore, and in the middle, there is NO way, atleast on the two blocks I have tested that you can bore 7mm!! Ok, so to bore 7mm, That means that the walls need to be a MINIMUM of .093 thou for a cyldinder wall thickness, AFTER boring. So 7mm/2= 138 thou of wall thickness removed. Therefore, you would need .138 PLUS .093= .231", for a MINIMUM, and thats NA, for Boosted I wouldnt run anything under .130" so your talking atleast 267 thousands of an inch for cylinder wall thickness as a MINUMUM in ALL bores. Yea folks thats not gonna happen, I have like 5 blocks now, I dont want to tear down three of them as they are COMPLETE right now, and no need to tear them down for checking as Ive already checked two. Only way this can be done, is for sleeves to be installed. Now what is the Bore centers on a L series 96mm on 1-2, 2-3, 4-5, and 5-6. And On 3-4 is 98mm. So stock bore is 84.5 on Ld Correct? So your talking 7mm over is 91.5mm bore, and 83 stroke, that puts you at 3.27 liter. Where is the 4mm Come into play? Yea see, just doesnt add up.

 

So with a 96mm Bore center, 91.5 bore, you get 4.5mm/2= 2.25 bore thickness between cylinders, which is about 89 thousands of an inch, BETWEEN CYLINDERS, if ALL cylinders are Siameesed. And you CANT Siameese sleeves, and that is TOO thin for comfort. Doesnt add up does it.

 

So how did the 4 liter come into play? Ok, so a reground crank say 1mm that is offset would give 84mm for a stroke, then you would need 100MM bore, YEA RIGHT, You dont have me fooled for ONE second.

[Mack]

Its not possible. 104mm bores on an Lseries. check the space inbetween your headbolts, no way no how does it measure up to 104mm. WHile the specs for the deisel may not be the same as a gas engine, the bore spacing still has to be the same otherwise we could not use LD28 cranks in L28 blocks, nor could we put L28 heads on LD28 blocks. the bores have to line up with the combustion chambers.

 

I hope this is a joke.

 

 

BIGGEST L series Ive ever heard of is a 3.5L in japan, using sleeves and a custom forged crank.

[naviathan]

Just as a side note, that acrylic spray paint job looks like a$$ and will probably burn off if you ever start it.

[rayaapp2]

Its not possible. 104mm bores on an Lseries. check the space inbetween your headbolts' date=' no way no how does it measure up to 104mm. WHile the specs for the deisel may not be the same as a gas engine, the bore spacing still has to be the same otherwise we could not use LD28 cranks in L28 blocks, nor could we put L28 heads on LD28 blocks. the bores have to line up with the combustion chambers.

 

I hope this is a joke.

 

 

BIGGEST L series Ive ever heard of is a 3.5L in japan, using sleeves and a custom forged crank.[/quote']

You could bore the block out to 104mm and not hit the head bolts. The cross section is 127mm approx. and they are spaced 95mm apart. I have no idea how stong that would be... I'm not claiming anything here, just passing info along to get the facts straight. The info I was given doesn't say that the demensions of the block were different other than the deck height, but that the thickness of the cylinder walls was different. I had, forgotten that they were siameese cylinders in the block. 1 fast z's answer is exactly why I posted.

 

I have a block to compare with here, but I only have a tape measure. The measurements I have are close enough. 1 fast z's math looks bulletproof.

 

I'm waiting on a call back within the hour from the engineer at Jim Wolf Technology to explain. I will post back after the call.

[1 fast z]

I would bet that you NEVER heard back from Jim Wolf, and if you did, they couldnt give you a answer could they?

[Mack]

when you talk about measuting the "cross section" of the headbolts (space between them) are you measuring across the bore? like diagonally? if so, that wont work. the hypotenuse will always be greater than the sides of a square.

 

You could bore the block out to 104mm and not hit the head bolts. The cross section is 127mm approx. and they are spaced 95mm apart.

 

Its the 95 (or more accurately, 96mm) you have to worry about, not the 127mm. L series motors have bore centers set at 96mm, exept for the space between cyl #3 & 4, which is 98mm because of the thrust bearing. ANYWAY. if you measure from the center of one bore to the center of another, you will come up with 96mm. that means if you bored your motor out to 104mm, the pistons would overlap eachother by 8mm!

[rayaapp2]

I would bet that you NEVER heard back from Jim Wolf, and if you did, they couldnt give you a answer could they?

 

"Hi Ray,

I have given a copy of this E-mail to our engineer and he will try to contact you on Monday or Tuesday in the AM.

 

Best regards,

Ben Pila (Technical and Sales Support)

Jim Wolf Technology, Inc. "

 

It's hard to get good info these days.

 

 

 

when you talk about measuting the "cross section" of the headbolts (space between them) are you measuring across the bore? like diagonally? if so' date=' that wont work. the hypotenuse will always be greater than the sides of a square.

 

 

 

Its the 95 (or more accurately, 96mm) you have to worry about, not the 127mm. L series motors have bore centers set at 96mm, exept for the space between cyl #3 & 4, which is 98mm because of the thrust bearing. ANYWAY. if you measure from the center of one bore to the center of another, you will come up with 96mm. that means if you bored your motor out to 104mm, the pistons would overlap eachother by 8mm![/quote']

 

 

I never said they wouldn't over lap... in fact until someone got me good numbers(thanks 1 fast z) I wasn't even going to bother to check the block out with out a caliper. You could put a 104mm hole in between the four bolts overlaping or not they wouldn't hit the bolts. Draw 2 127mm lines that cross in the middle like a X and put a compass at the cross section. 52mm radius. you'll see that it fits with like 5mm to spare. Other than that it doesn't make sense to make it that big. You might as well have a custom block made or something.

 

So I'm going to wait until 9:30am on Mon morning and then I'm calling them. I also e-mailed Jerry again to see if he could share any light on the facts and see if I can't get him to reavel any secrets.

 

I wouldn't be to said if I ended up with a 3.2L engine. With the better rod/stroke ratio I'd be set.

 

 

Just out of curiousity 1 fast z, I'm sure you've done the F54 blocks as well if you have access to the equipment. What or the tollerances on them? Similar?

[Mack]

you CANT PHYSICALLY bore out a block 104mm. Its not a matter of strength, or any of that crap. Its noot physically possible. here is a diagram.

 

If you want a huge L series, best bet would be to get an LD block linered set it up for a 91mm bore and get a custom 90 or 91mm crank. that would put you right about 3.5l. and you would still be able to maintain a decent rod/stroke ratio if you used a short compression height piston.

[The Revelation]

I would bet that you NEVER heard back from Jim Wolf, and if you did, they couldnt give you a answer could they?

 

haha probably not, jim wolf is a great resource to call though, some of the engines they put out are nothing short of breathtaking, this engine (the top picture) really does look nice, but im with...the guy up there ^...starting that thing will probably kill the paint.

[notheredave]

I have read a couple of threads and am concerned about boring my block 90.3mm...with ,forged pistons, a diesel crank and 136mm rods (sr20det...I think?).

 

I hope it holds the boost (gt35 and JWT setup)

[ezzzzzzz]

I'm building a 'stroker' L6 using the LD block and crank. This LD block is not siamesed. There is partial ribbing and gaps (~1/8") between the cylinders. Stock bore is 84.5mm. I only went to 85mm to keep strength and allow for additional rebuilds. To achieve the kinds of displacement mentioned here will require liners and probably reground cranks. I don't recall the dimensions this far down the road but believe I mentioned them in earlier posts about these engine builds. My build is using a P90A (mech) head and the stock V07 crank. I'm also using L20B rods and custom JE pistons. There is quite a bit of machining and mods involved in using the diesel block with the petrol head. Probably the most important issue is head bolts. There are NO bolts out there that just work. I researched many options even visiting a variety of diesel shops looking for these elusive bolts. The BMW bolts are NO exception. ARP will make you a set of 14 studs for only $1100. Working with a good friend and owner of an industrial fastener business we scoured his sources and found a solution. I can provide a set of 12.9 socket head bolts 12mm x 1.75 pitch in 150mm and 170mm lengths. All will need to be shortened by approximately 5mm to prevent bottoming out in the blind block holes. You'll only need ARP head bolt washers to complete the set. I've yet to complete my SC'd L6 but have all the confidence that these will perform more than adequately.

[notheredave]

I'm building a 'stroker' L6 using the LD block and crank. This LD block is not siamesed. There is partial ribbing and gaps (~1/8") between the cylinders. Stock bore is 84.5mm. I only went to 85mm to keep strength and allow for additional rebuilds. To achieve the kinds of displacement mentioned here will require liners and probably reground cranks. I don't recall the dimensions this far down the road but believe I mentioned them in earlier posts about these engine builds. My build is using a P90A (mech) head and the stock V07 crank. I'm also using L20B rods and custom JE pistons. There is quite a bit of machining and mods involved in using the diesel block with the petrol head. Probably the most important issue is head bolts. There are NO bolts out there that just work. I researched many options even visiting a variety of diesel shops looking for these elusive bolts. The BMW bolts are NO exception. ARP will make you a set of 14 studs for only $1100. Working with a good friend and owner of an industrial fastener business we scoured his sources and found a solution. I can provide a set of 12.9 socket head bolts 12mm x 1.75 pitch in 150mm and 170mm lengths. All will need to be shortened by approximately 5mm to prevent bottoming out in the blind block holes. You'll only need ARP head bolt washers to complete the set. I've yet to complete my SC'd L6 but have all the confidence that these will perform more than adequately.

 

Well they (the "91.5mm" pistons) came in and to my suprise they are 89mm...Soooooooooooooo Happy. The next problem is the rods that I will need are 136mm (pin height is 3mm too short to use the 133mm 240 rods) I thought that I could used SR20's but I think they are too thin on the big end. Any suggestions?

[ezzzzzzz]

My only suggestion is custom rods. By the time you're done dicking with trying to make other rods work you'll be just as deep time and money wise.

[Daeron]

I'm building a 'stroker' L6 using the LD block and crank. This LD block is not siamesed. There is partial ribbing and gaps (~1/8") between the cylinders. Stock bore is 84.5mm. I only went to 85mm to keep strength and allow for additional rebuilds. To achieve the kinds of displacement mentioned here will require liners and probably reground cranks. I don't recall the dimensions this far down the road but believe I mentioned them in earlier posts about these engine builds. My build is using a P90A (mech) head and the stock V07 crank. I'm also using L20B rods and custom JE pistons. There is quite a bit of machining and mods involved in using the diesel block with the petrol head. Probably the most important issue is head bolts. There are NO bolts out there that just work. I researched many options even visiting a variety of diesel shops looking for these elusive bolts. The BMW bolts are NO exception. ARP will make you a set of 14 studs for only $1100. Working with a good friend and owner of an industrial fastener business we scoured his sources and found a solution. I can provide a set of 12.9 socket head bolts 12mm x 1.75 pitch in 150mm and 170mm lengths. All will need to be shortened by approximately 5mm to prevent bottoming out in the blind block holes. You'll only need ARP head bolt washers to complete the set. I've yet to complete my SC'd L6 but have all the confidence that these will perform more than adequately.

 

Check into head bolts for a Subaru EA82 engine; its an 1800cc from the 1980's GL line and the Loyale of the early 90s.

[ezzzzzzz]

What are the specs of these bolts? I believe you'll find the Suby to be a 1.5 pitch. Bottom line is they need to 12mm 1.75 pitch. The length should be 145mm and 165mm.