ignition question (coil pack)

[260DET]

Engine is being built to take 25psi boost so it sounds like CDI to be sure. Mercury outboard coils?

[Pop N Wood]

 

Man, you do nice work. I love such a clean look.

 

The aluminum mounting plate gave me a good idea for dressing up my LS2 motor. Everything else on the motor is shiny aluminum. I think an alumimum plate will complement the engine soo much better than a black piece of steel.

 

FWIW, MSD and Edlebrock are the only two who make an inginition box for the carbed LS motors, and my guess is they rebadge the same box. Hopefully the box won't let me down.

[RTz]

Engine is being built to take 25psi boost so it sounds like CDI to be sure. Mercury outboard coils?

 

Richard,

 

I’ve heard the Mercury CDI coils are pretty good... I have no first hand experience so take it with a grain of salt.

 

Have you looked into J&S Safeguard? John’s website isn’t that impressive... its mostly just an introduction, so don’t let that turn you off. In a nut shell, he builds some of the finest ignitors in the biz. and couples them to a ‘smart’ knock system. Its capable of detecting which cylinders are knocking, and optimizing timing on an INDIVIDUAL basis. So you end up with a quasi-custom timing map for EACH cylinder.

 

He makes 2,3 and 4 channel systems, and has adapted a 3 channel system to a VG30DE (becoming wasted spark). I have spoken to John about installing two 3 channel systems... he said that application would work very well. To my knowledge, his stuff is all inductive.

 

As I understand it, about half of the Formula 1 cars run CD and the other half inductive. I’m not trying to start a debate. Just trying to make the point that they both CAN work. I hate to see you spend all that money on a system when inductive could get the job done.

 

If the system is designed to work well together, I don’t see the problem with inductive. Thats just my opinion... I could be wrong

[RTz]

Man, you do nice work. I love such a clean look.

 

Thank you!

 

The aluminum mounting plate gave me a good idea for dressing up my LS2 motor. Everything else on the motor is shiny aluminum. I think an alumimum plate will complement the engine soo much better than a black piece of steel.

 

 

So I take it your running your LS2 without the plastic covers? That would be something I’d like to see. The covers look good but EVERYONE uses them... I think you’d have something unique if you could fancy things up enough to run without’em.

 

 

FWIW, MSD and Edlebrock are the only two who make an inginition box for the carbed LS motors, and my guess is they rebadge the same box. Hopefully the box won't let me down.

 

My experiences with MSD have all been analog... their digital stuff could be a different story. I should have qualified that earlier.

[Pop N Wood]

Well, running may be a bit premature. Still building.

 

I assume by plastic covers you are talking about the red things the corvettes use. Definitely won't be using those since the won't exactly work in my application. Here it is with the coil packs removed to prevent damage.

 

 

Here are some pics of a gorgeous set up that doesn't use the plastic covers

 

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504639

 

Would love to do something similar to the above, but there are some definite pluses to keeping the coil packs near the plugs. I was thinking of just replacing the black steel mounts with some flat aluminum. Everything on this motor is aluminum, so why not the coil mounts?

[RTz]

I assume by plastic covers you are talking about the red things the corvettes use. Definitely won't be using those since the won't exactly work in my application. Here it is with the coil packs removed to prevent damage.

 

PERFECT... thats it! Kudos.

 

I see what you mean in the link... I think, from a performance perspective, the longer wires are negligible... but definitely distracting.

 

I like your plan... build an attractive coil plate and you should be 'there'.

 

Maybe replace the oil fill with a low profile cap as well?

[z-ya]

That is a Vortec V8. roght? Why not use the stock coils that mount on the valve covers? The wires are super short with the stock GM coils. Are you going to run a carb? A big 4 barrel throttle body would lokk good on top of that manifold. Looks like you have plenty of room to weld injector bungs in the intake runners. too. 4 on each side, with two polished alumunum fuel rails.

[Pop N Wood]

Talk about thread hyjack. I feel bad because this is one of the more informative threads I have read lately.

 

No vortec, that is a crate LS2. I took off the valve cover mounted coil packs that came with it so I wouldn't damage them while fitting and refitting the engine. Will run with the stock parts at least initially. Maybe down the road I can mount them on the strut towers or maybe bury them in the cowl.

 

The engine in the link I posted has the GM LS carb intake with injectors. Looks pretty wild, except IMO the rest of the engine bay is so cluttered the engine gets kind of lost.

[Guest Mike]

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504639

 

...cluttered (ugly) engine bay? It's nicer than mine:ugg:

[z-ya]

Why would anyone remote mount the coils when there is already a spot for them on the valve cover. Just for a pretty "Chevrolet" valve cover? Maybe he is running some very high ratio rocker arms that require a taller valve cover. Just makes it look cluttered.

[Mr.INSANE]

So i take it that if i wanted to run individual coils i would need wolf 3d?

Take i would still use this "ford" system if i could use aftermarket coils instead of the stock one

[RTz]

So i take it that if i wanted to run individual coils i would need wolf 3d?

 

Wolf is a good choice. However, its not the only choice. MS will run COP (coil-on-plug) but it isn't well documented (last I checked). Motec, Autronic, Haltech, and several others will as well.

 

Take i would still use this "ford" system if i could use aftermarket coils instead of the stock one

 

I'm having trouble reading you. Are you saying running EDIS with a different brand of coil pack? If so, it is a possibility. I once ran a Dodge coil pack on an EDIS system. It would take some research on your part but I believe its an option.

[tannji]

Is there any reason not to use these after-market coils? Anyone know anything about them?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Accel-140018-Ignition-Coil-4-Tower-EDIS-Super-Coil-Pack_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33689QQihZ011QQitemZ320039219838QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[RTz]

Is there any reason not to use these after-market coils? Anyone know anything about them?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Accel-140018-Ignition-Coil-4-Tower-EDIS-Super-Coil-Pack_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33689QQihZ011QQitemZ320039219838QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

 

 

I've never used an Accel coil. Technically, it should work just fine.

[z-ya]

I'm using a Chrysler OEM coil pack like Paul his on my SC L28. These coils shoot a 2" spark out of the boot to the plug. These days all OEM coils are fine for 99% of all street engines (including high output turbo applications). Your wasting your money on aftermarket coils when an OEM one woul work fine (spray paint them if you don't like the color).

 

Any modern inductive coil will work with EDIS. EDIS is wasted spark, so for simplicity reasons you wouldn't run COP. Now you can try to parallel up two coils on each output and use COP coils. Not sure if the EDIS module will overheat.

 

The MS does support COP, but not in the standard configuration. You will need to make modifications to the circuit board and harness to make it work. Not all that difficult, but you will soon run out of outputs and pins on the DB37 connector. So forget about using any of the other features in the Extra code (water inection, shift light, cooling fan, boost control, etc, etc.) because you won't have any CPU outputs or connectors pins to use them with COP. You can run 3 ignition outputs, each driving two igniters, but then you are just doing wasted spark with a bunch of wasted hardware.

 

Bottom line, the COP looks sexy, but how much extra work and $ are you willing to put into COP for that "look". In most all applicaitons, there is no performance difference between COP and wasted spark.

[RTz]

This thread has progressed to the point that I think this needs to be mentioned. The primary drawback of dual-post coils is that it puts the spark plugs in series. This means their polarity is opposite each other. See Below...

 

Courtesy Wolf...

 

 

This has been hashed out here...

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=114147

 

However, I agree with Pete... for 99% of applications its perfectly adequate. The weaker spark is still more than sufficient most of the time... I know of people running over 20psi on dual post coils.

[RTz]

Any modern inductive coil will work with EDIS.

 

Pete,

 

I've only checked a couple makes of OE coil packs for primary resistance (Dodge and Ford). Have you had opportunity to check other makes?

[Mr.INSANE]

Thanks RonTyler

 

I think what i meant to say is do i haveto run coil "packs" or can i run compeltely seperate coils

 

If so how would i achieve this and is there any good documents on Coil On Plug setups

[RTz]

Thanks RonTyler

I think what i meant to say is do i haveto run coil "packs" or can i run compeltely seperate coils. If so how would i achieve this

 

Pete covered that in his last post... second paragraph.

 

and is there any good documents on Coil On Plug setups

 

There is a never ending combination of parts that will work tegether... some better than others. I have never seen an "all in one" source. Spend some time with Google and you'll find enough to keep you busy for a LONG time.

[260DET]

Richard,

 

I’ve heard the Mercury CDI coils are pretty good... I have no first hand experience so take it with a grain of salt.

 

Have you looked into J&S Safeguard? John’s website isn’t that impressive... its mostly just an introduction, so don’t let that turn you off. In a nut shell, he builds some of the finest ignitors in the biz. and couples them to a ‘smart’ knock system. Its capable of detecting which cylinders are knocking, and optimizing timing on an INDIVIDUAL basis. So you end up with a quasi-custom timing map for EACH cylinder.

 

He makes 2,3 and 4 channel systems, and has adapted a 3 channel system to a VG30DE (becoming wasted spark). I have spoken to John about installing two 3 channel systems... he said that application would work very well. To my knowledge, his stuff is all inductive.

 

As I understand it, about half of the Formula 1 cars run CD and the other half inductive. I’m not trying to start a debate. Just trying to make the point that they both CAN work. I hate to see you spend all that money on a system when inductive could get the job done.

 

If the system is designed to work well together, I don’t see the problem with inductive. Thats just my opinion... I could be wrong

 

 

That J&S system sounds good, link here http://www.jandssafeguard.com/index.html

The problem I've run into is finding a system readily compatible with a MoTec ECU. Looked at the MSD DIS system but apparrently it is incompatible, or at least not readily compatible.

 

Thanks very much for the comment though Ron, M&W systems are compatible so I'll enquire about their inductive system.