Administrators RTz Posted October 25, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 25, 2006 Mr Insanity, Food for thought... A coil is only as good as its controller. In this case its the EDIS module itself. A coil has many attributes. For example, primary current, saturation rate, dicharge rate, voltage, current, etc, etc. I have every reason to believe Ford factored their coil pack into the design of the module. I expect it to be fairly well optimized for THAT coil pack. People I trust tell me that one of the most difficult things in designing a module is factoring in the dwell. Dwell can easily be calculated at a steady rpm. What happens when the engine is accelerated or decelerated? The module cannot go back in time and ‘start over’. There are several strategies to deal with this. Some I understand. Some I don’t. What happens when you install a different coil pack on EDIS? If its qualities are different, particularly charge/discharge rate, you could easily find yourself a step back.... and not even know it. Without proper test equipment and experience its a crap shoot. **However** As I mentioned previously, I used a Dodge coil pack once. One of the goals of the project was to see just HOW forgiving EDIS could be. I deliberately did the following to my 510... Along with the Dodge coil, I installed an EDIS6 VR sensor on an EDIS4 system, with custom cut teeth that are ENTIRELY different then any factory teeth (see below), and not one trace of shielding! Outwardly, the system ran fine. It was a noticeable improvement over the factory electronic ignition, both in performance and fuel economy. **But** Did I get lucky? How much performance had I lost, if any? Who knows such things? Without proper testing its impossible to know. I will say this.... a properly installed EDIS system, with matched components, should work pretty well on most applications. No need to change it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 25, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 25, 2006 The problem I've run into is finding a system readily compatible with a MoTec ECU. Sounds like you already have a Motec box in hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Another option? Use LS1/2 coils which have built in ignitors and run them directly off an aftermarket ECU? Might need an ignition expander to do that although the MoTec M600 looks like it will do the job itself? http://www.motec.com.au/m400m600.htm You see I really know bugger all about modern ignition systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 27, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 27, 2006 Another option? There are always options. If you've purchased a system, then I suspect you did so with deliberation. If not, tell me what you're looking for. Use LS1/2 coils which have built in ignitors and run them directly off an aftermarket ECU? Wolf3D will drive them directly. I would be VERY suprised if Motec will not. Might need an ignition expander to do that? Not necessary with Wolf. Again, I'd be surprised if necessary with Motec. If you find it more convenient, you can always email me direct... ron@primeems.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 27, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 27, 2006 Low blow... you edited in the middle of my response Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 27, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 27, 2006 MoTec M600 looks like it will do the job itself? http://www.motec.com.au/m400m600.htm I'll look into the link tomorrow, as its getting late here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 27, 2006 Share Posted October 27, 2006 Low blow... you edited in the middle of my response Sorry One thing on aftermarket ECU's, to contemplate for a moment, go the best you can afford, even if you can't afford it. Another one, the ECU is only as good as the installer/tuner. You go with those Ron? Anyway, this LS1/2 coil thing is a bolt from the blue, looks like the winnah!!! Much better option than coil over plug in any form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 27, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 27, 2006 One thing on aftermarket ECU's, to contemplate for a moment, go the best you can afford, even if you can't afford it. Most definitely. Just keep in mind that, once you get ino the high end systems, its not always clear which is best. Frequently, there is no right or wrong answer. They will ALL run you car well. It boils down to the 'extras' after that. Another one, the ECU is only as good as the installer/tuner. You could say that about 3 more times!!! Too many people miss that 'little' piece of the puzzle. Anyway, this LS1/2 coil thing is a bolt from the blue, looks like the winnah!!! Much better option than coil over plug in any form. There are also some aftermarket coils that may be better than the LSx stuff with nearly the same configuration. Check out Mototron. I'm not certain I like thier stuff, but the coil 'packaging' is used by others. Pantara EFI has coils custom built to his specs in that same housing. I'm going to take a hard look at his coils on the next project. P.S. Looking over the Motec literature, It appears the M600 will drive LSx coil's directly. Should contact a dealer to be certain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 27, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 27, 2006 Mototron... http://www.mototron.com/prod_intelcoil.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapiper Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 I drive my LS1 with 8ms dwell at idle to 4 ms at 6 k RPM with 90 % saturation, but current is near 10A at 7K RPM. On my Autronics ECU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 28, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 28, 2006 I drive my LS1 with 8ms dwell at idle to 4 ms at 6 k RPM with 90 % saturation, but current is near 10A at 7K RPM. On my Autronics ECU. Welcome to the thread, As I understand it, the Denso 580 coils have a built in safety feature... at around 8ms they dump their charge to protect themselves from overheating. Obviously, this means they will be firing when they are not supposed to. It sounds like you getting dangerously close to crossing the line. They should be fully saturated by around 5.8ms. If you're getting 90% saturation at 4ms, why do you run 8ms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Here is a MoTec tech drawing for using what appear to be LS1/2 coils. Wiring them up could not be simpler, particularly compared with a CDI system. http://www.motec.com.au/drawings/m32.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dapiper Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 Optimal dwell is RPM dependant. I'll see if I can find a screen dump from my Picotech scope to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted November 5, 2006 Administrators Share Posted November 5, 2006 Dapiper, That would be great... I would love to see it. I get the feeling we're talking about two different things... maybe the O-scope dump will clarify. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montezuma Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I have an Ultra direct ignition system that my friend sent me from Japan. It came off a L28 3.1. I two total systems and 3 modules, plus Ultra wires. The thing I don't have is instructions, I plan to intall in a N42 3.1 with Mikuni 44s. If it works it will be very interesting. All the web research I have been doing on Ultra comes up saying it is for Jags. Not sure what I got here, but my friend is convinced it will work on the Z again. Any advice would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montezuma Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Tried to get the system working yesterday but it would not get spark. Anyone ever work with this system? I saw a picture of the system in Lighting Vintage Auto 9 Mag. I was on a G-nose. Anyone with advice would help. Thanks in advance. Got the site for the system from a very knowledge Z car owner: http://www.nagaidenshi.co.jp/index.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted November 9, 2007 Share Posted November 9, 2007 This is such an informative thread that an update may be useful to someone, that is driving LS1 or 2 coils directly by an aftermarket ECU, in my case a MoTec M600. Apparently the LS1 and 2 coils are wired differently, I've found out that if LS2 coils were wired the same as LS1's then the coils would likely be destroyed. So at the moment I'm waiting for a LS2 diagram from MoTec. Incidentially, as my VG30DET engine will be used for motorsport I've gone for the individual LS2 coils in preference to the standard coil over plug setup. Simply because the LS2 coils can be mounted in a cooler place for better reliability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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