Custom fuel injection "kit", any interest?

[rztmartini]

i cheated my way thru highschool physics so if you could enlighten us...

 

what are the calculations everyone is using for getting HP out of quarter-mile/eighth-mile times and weight of the car?

[bubbleguinea]

if he ditched his manifold, or DESIGNED IT BETTER, than i guarentee he would run quicker than a 12.8.

 

look at ALL the other ITB setups...you see ANY of them with un-equal length runners?? i only see one, and that one is in a car that should be running quicker and putting out more HP than it is currently doing....

 

 

the whole point is, is that his times are too slow for that built engine. why? intake manifold design is flawed, and thats what we are discussing here. intake manifolds....

[1 fast z]

SHOW ME any FI car NA in a full bodied 280z running quicker then me, guess what there IS NONE, and there definitly isnt any with as little of cam as I have, bubbles, you dont have a CLUE what your talking about, you dont have a CLUE how to build motors, you dont have a clue, PERIOD. You DONT know how to build motors (cough 4 times BASIC rebuild in a year). If you think about it, I have the ONLY 280z that I know of state side ofcourse, and people on the boards ofcourse, that runs as quick as I do. Guess what I probably have 20% the cost in my car/motor then you do, yet your a FULL SECOND (full second is equivilent to about a HUNDRED HP for the same weight and since I have about 300 LBS over you, I have what 130 HP over you). So to some up, My intake works GREAT every one that has ridden, or heard my car, or seen it can vouch for that. Ask TONYD, ask GEARHEAD, ask IAN, Ask Jim WIlliams, Ask Mcadam, etc. All I know is that I designed and built MY OWN INTAKE, where did you get yours, oh yea you BOUGHT yours, So that makes me VERY proud of my work, and Its a BLAST to DAILY drive. I love it, im sorry you dont.

[BRAAP]

Are you having troubles bubbles? Trouble opening your minds eye that is? Are you a professional engine builder/tuner, or a magazine engine builder tuner, or have you just read a lot of magazine articles and think you know it all in terms of HIGH PERFORMANCE?

 

I am normally very passive when others get closed minded on the forum but your posts are not just pushing my buttons, but pounding on them…

 

You talk as if you are an expert engine builder/tuner. The rest of us are only seeing one 13 second time slip from you to back up your wealth of knowledge. You can’t be telling us that because you have a 13 second time slip, you are now some sort of performance guru, are you? You do realize that when you criticized “1 fast Z”’s intake, you were in fact criticizing an actual professional engine builder/tuner that “does” build some successfully quick L-series cars right?

 

How bout instead of just telling professional engine builders/tuners how they should do things different to go faster, why don’t you put your key board away, go out into your garage/shop and actually “prove” to us that you know what you are talking about and build an engine that will impress us all to the level YOU feel is impressive?

 

Sheesh….

[RTz]

bubbles,

 

I've seen a couple request's for a timeslip... is there no timeslip?

[lt1will620]

You guys are all jackasses, Bubbles is absolutely correct on this one, but that doesn't mean he should be hijacking my thread!! you guys wanna flex youre internet muscles, do it through pm's. And anyway, youre arguring over some pretty ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ slow cars here, high 12 sec full blown race motor? HAHA, get a life

 

anyway, who says youre car has to be fast to have a good personal knowledge about performance engines and theory? Everything bubbles has said is spot on, kind of an ass about it, but he is correct. And whoever said you can use simple high school physics to calculate 1/4 times and trap speed is full of sh*t, you dont get into exponentially increasing/decreasing acceleration in high school physics, and without that, there is NO WAY you can accuratly estimate 1/4 mile times. Not to mention you would also need accurate friction coeff. on both the particular tire and the track, temperatures, baro readings, etc. also not covered in high school crap.

 

and 1fastz; yes, you're intake is quite pretty, but functional as an all out race intake? not on my motor! I garruntee if you ran o2's on each one of you're header primaries you would see a rich condition on the middle two. would you want that on a race engine built to constantly be running on its absolute edge? haha hell no! For a street car with a forgiving tune, other than fouling those middle plugs, i see no harm in that intake, and it is probably leaps and bounds above stock, but its not the end all, be all ITB intake system. We can all learn from its design flaws though, and make a better one. What im thinking, is using the gsxr TB's, but place them so that all of the primaries are curved the same amount, thus, all equal length. Overall flow on 1&2, 5&6 would not be as good as yours, but atleast it would yield an equal flowing, easily tuneable engine.

 

anyway, who wants to cut me an intake flange?

[BRAAP]

Yes, Bubbles points do have some validity, technically speaking, but “not” to the extreme that he was boasting, same goes for “lt1will620”’s post.

 

 

C’mon guys. Offering forth advice or ideas for sake of conversation or for others to ponder and possibly tryout and learn from is great. But to make blatant statements of “this” is right or wrong with no actual professional background in that field, you are just asking to get shut down from those that do have actual “practical” knowledge and experience about engine design, tuning and power development, especially with a particular engine such as the L-series.

 

Lets keep this in perspective folks. We are dealing with a 2 valve Datsun engine, not an F-1, NASCAR, or Indy car power plant here.

 

“lt1will620” mentioned O-2’s in the primaries of 1 fast Z’s header claiming a rich mixture in the center cylinders?! In my “professional” opinion, that ASSumption that Bryans intake would yield enough fuel mixture differential between ANY or ALL cylinders to make a measurable difference on the dyno is bogus. These are DATSUN street engines guys! If that was an F-1 engine or NASCAR engine, then yes, that would be seen and dealt with as important. These are Datsun engines that are NOT making 3-5 HP per cubic inch guys! If you are going to pick apart his intake manifold design as if it were to be used on an F-1 or NASCAR engine, then why aren’t you picking apart the cylinder head that Nissan cast in the first place? How about the fact that the cam is “over” the rockers and not “under” the rockers in an effort to shorten the overall height of the L-series engine, (similar to the NAPS-Z and VG-30E), which would also slightly lower the engine CG? I’m sure that would stir up a huge debate… Remember, these are DATSUNs, not INDY or IMSA Group-C.

 

In defense of “1 fast Z”, Bryans “intake” is NOT holding his engine back from making stellar power! The cylinder head by design has more issues than his intake does, PERIOD!!!!! You guys are missing the forest for the trees here. Sure his runners aren’t EXACTLY equal length, but are they really so far out of proportion from one another that there could actually be a measurable difference worth squabbling over? I’d bet there’s not more than 5 HP difference over a comparable equal length intake design, more like 1-2 HP using that same cam, exhaust etc, and that is barring any other variables. The angularity of the center cylinder runners also aren’t quite ideal, but is it going to cost even 5 HP? I don’t think so. Even if it was woth5 HP. IS that going to drop half second off his ET when he is already running high 12’s? NOT!!!! Are we building a DATSUN L-series or a Top Fuel drag car? Keep it in perspective….

 

Bubbles used Norms car as an example previously, so lets use it again, (no offense Norm, you know how I feel about your car, DAMN FAST!!! I’m just using it to get a point across.) I urge you guys to take a close long look at the runners of the SU carbureted intake manifold. Not only do these SU manifolds have much more substantial direction changes in the runners vs Byans, (cylinders 3 and 4 in particular), look at how much difference in there is in length of the SU runners percentage wise? Somewhere between 50-100% “difference” between cylinders 3-4 and the 1-2-5-6 runners. Even with that drastic difference, Norms car works rather well doesn’t it? Lets go a little deeper in to this, shall we… Being as the fuel is also flowing through those SU runners, not just air, (carbureted intakes are considered to be “wet” intakes), and remember, fuel is heavier than air, there is more chance for differing Air Fuel Ratios from cylinder to cylinder due the sharp path changes as compared with “1 fast Z”’s intake, (in particular cylinders 3-4 vs cylinders 1-2-5-6). The fuel in the air stream of the carbureted engine will want to separate from the air as it makes those hard sharp direction changes. So as for “1 fast Z” mixtures from cylinder to cylinder being allegedly different, even the AFRS were, it is nowhere as drastic as ANY dual SU carbed Z car would be, even Norms. The age and quality of “1 fast Z’s” fuel injectors will have WAY more influence on the mixture from cylinder to cylinder than what his intake design has on the AFR.

 

Lets quite squabbling and get this thread back on topic with some actual real world info, not argue over things that really don’t benefit DATSUN engines.

 

 

Paul

[RTz]

anyway, who wants to cut me an intake flange?

 

 

Like this?...

.

.

.

.

.

.

Not a chance

[1 fast z]

Untill YOU build something BETTER with YOUR own hands, and not just opening up your wallet to someone else to build it for you, you have NO room to talk, got it Bub!

 

Also, Like said, percentage difference upon air flow is not enough to distingish. Also, what do V8 motors use? Thats right DUAL PLANE INTAKES, are THERE runners all the same lenght NOPE, so wheres your explanation for that one? HMMMMMMMMM. So I guess all V8's make terrible Power too Right? Ok................ I built this intake with my OWN hands, I was 20 years old, and From my oppinion and others who have ridden/driven/seen my car, they can vouch its not too shabby either. At the last autocross event, Jim williams, said (as he was driving my car, and I was a passanger) that It handled like crap, as it did with COLLAPSED coilover springs, but the power was the best hes ever felt for throttle response,/instant tq in a z car thats exactly what he said. I love my work, Im very proud of it, because I built it, and you know what the best part is, is that people knock it, and yet they cant understand why my car runs like it does. It NEVER stops pulling, atelast how far I revved it to. LIke BRAAP said, injectors have alot worse quality controll then my intake does as for FLOW difference. My plugs are all the same brownish color as far as the naked EYE can tell. NO fouling what so ever so I dont know where that came from will.

 

 

BUT to have the satisfaction of YOU guys, Ive already got this intake partially built, and Im going to install it and show NO improovements on a TIME SLIP, thats all that matters ISNT IT?

 

 

 

 

Oh and BTW, Bubbles is also the same guy who got is head ported by a "guy" who used the poor quality controll felpro intake gasket as a guage, he just ported till it matched the intake gasket, as we all know that felpro had done TONS of head flow test, and laminer flow test, and wet test to see what works best then built millions of gaskets to use that principle, RIGHHHHHHHHHHT......... YAWWWWWWWWN!!!!

 

But hes a pro engine builder that can down talk all the rest of us, UMM, oK.

 

THis is also the SAME guy who has had to rebuild his STOCK motor 4 times in one year, because he cant keep it together, So who knows what now?

[lt1will620]

Like this?...

.

.

.

 

haha yeah that things bad! send one my way...PLEASE?!?!

 

and all im saying about the unequal length runners is, as long as I myself, or others on this board for that matter, are going to build a custom ITB setup, just try to keep the runners equal length. It's not the horsepower gain or loss i'm worried about here, it's the overal tunability and CONSISTANCY of a race motor (yes, if you remember, this thread started off as a topic for an scca spec race car). As long as i'm building one, i'm building one with equal length runners.

 

BTW, my head/intake porter (for my lt1's) got in an argument about textures in intake ports, his customer wanted the cliche "port & polished" job on his heads and intake; not realizing for fuel atomazation reasons, you do not want a polished surface in your head ports. Customer insisted he did, so the porter agreed to do 7 of the 8 ports his way (textured), and the last port with a polished, mirror finish(mirror/polished finish was continued into the intake manifold as well). Individual o2's on the dyno(after poor performance and multiple tuners unable to dial in the car), as well as fouling plugs on the track proved that this little bit of a difference in TEXTURE ONLY (all ports flowed the same on the flow bench, IIRC about 380 CFM @.600 lift @ 28" water) made a difference in overall performance. Now, any small block head with numbers like that is obviously a race head, but if the texture in the port alone made that big of a difference, imagine what 1fastz's unequal length, and different shaped runners will do.

 

and the arguement that these are street datsun's makes no difference, ALL IC engines operate off the same principles, and to say that some factors effect only some motors is just rediculous. What is Rusch Motorsports BTW? and do you take this attitude of "there only street cars, so its not important to do good work" on all your customers cars?

 

BTW, if i could go back in time and convince the Nissan engineers to design this head differently, i would, BUT, this head design is what i have to work with, so its what im using.

[lt1will620]

Untill YOU build something BETTER with YOUR own hands, and not just opening up your wallet to someone else to build it for you, you have NO room to talk, got it Bub!

 

Also, Like said, percentage difference upon air flow is not enough to distingish. Also, what do V8 motors use? Thats right DUAL PLANE INTAKES, are THERE runners all the same lenght NOPE, so wheres your explanation for that one? HMMMMMMMMM. So I guess all V8's make terrible Power too Right? Ok................ I built this intake with my OWN hands, I was 20 years old, and From my oppinion and others who have ridden/driven/seen my car, they can vouch its not too shabby either. At the last autocross event, Jim williams, said (as he was driving my car, and I was a passanger) that It handled like crap, as it did with COLLAPSED coilover springs, but the power was the best hes ever felt for throttle response,/instant tq in a z car thats exactly what he said. I love my work, Im very proud of it, because I built it, and you know what the best part is, is that people knock it, and yet they cant understand why my car runs like it does. It NEVER stops pulling, atelast how far I revved it to. LIke BRAAP said, injectors have alot worse quality controll then my intake does as for FLOW difference. My plugs are all the same brownish color as far as the naked EYE can tell. NO fouling what so ever so I dont know where that came from will.

 

 

BUT to have the satisfaction of YOU guys, Ive already got this intake partially built, and Im going to install it and show NO improovements on a TIME SLIP, thats all that matters ISNT IT?

 

 

 

 

Oh and BTW, Bubbles is also the same guy who got is head ported by a "guy" who used the poor quality controll felpro intake gasket as a guage, he just ported till it matched the intake gasket, as we all know that felpro had done TONS of head flow test, and laminer flow test, and wet test to see what works best then built millions of gaskets to use that principle, RIGHHHHHHHHHHT......... YAWWWWWWWWN!!!!

 

But hes a pro engine builder that can down talk all the rest of us, UMM, oK.

 

THis is also the SAME guy who has had to rebuild his STOCK motor 4 times in one year, because he cant keep it together, So who knows what now?

 

WOW!! where to start? you need to do some research before opening your mouth bud. Dual plane intake ports are not of different volume, what acts as a plenum in a dual plane intake is slightly differernt from side to side, which is one of the reasons no one in there right mind would recommend a dual plane intake on a race or even any motor beyond a bolt on motor.

 

I'm not bashing your work, your craftsmanship is great! the finish is great, and im sure its a huge improvement over stock. I'm not trying to be negative in my comments here, im just critiquing youre intake design, so we (all of hybridz's members) can create a better design in the future.

 

I don't know if you were addressing me with this, but i do ALL of my own work, take a look at the twin turbo, Megasquirt-ed '95 Camaro in my signature, it was ALL built by me, in my garage, with a scratch start TIG ($200) a used mig, and a 4.5 inch angle grinder. The headers, dual 3" downpipes, intercooler piping, upper core support DOM tubing replacement, lower radiator mount/FMIC mount, and accesory bracket were all fabricated by me. And like you, i was 20 years old when i built it too, i just wish i had the tools and resources available to me that you do! haha

 

That cad image looks an awful lot like the one i posted up, good luck with it, let us all know the results as its pretty much exactly the design i want to build. I dont expect much if any power increase directly from the intake design itself, but the consistant AFR across all cylinders will allow for more aggresive tuning SAFELY, so thats what the extra power is going to come from.

[lt1will620]

also, im not familiar with the datsun fel-pro gaskets, but its a common place in the small block world to "gasket match" intakes and heads to gaskets, many porters and machine shops i know use fel-pros to do this, i know some gaskets (different part numbers) for the same motor will have slightly different shape/size, which is also why every intake and heads that have been gasket matched i've seen have been supplied with a fel-pro part number for that specific gasket.

 

BUT, like i said, datsun gaskets may be a different story...

[1 fast z]

Well I posted this intake design, well over 6 months ago, so maybe you coppied my design? AND NO, dual plane intakes do NOT have all same volume, I know for a FACT that Edellbrock (sp?) Performer, and performer RPM intakes are NOT all the same volume. So you need to do your research there BUD. You know how many people come on this board in the last to years saying how their building a ITB intake, and do you know how many ACTUALLY do it? VERY few, I put you in the very few catigory, for the reason, that if you have to get everyone elses oppinion, then you dont know what your doing. Oh and BTW, ANYONE can make a turbo car fast, such as your camaro, But lets see YOUR L series engine with ALL of your work done by yourself, and when I say ALL I mean ALL. I mean do your OWN boring, do your own sonic testing, do your own piston designs, do your own piston lightening, do your own honing, do your own rod bushings, do your own crank and piston and rod balencing, do your own poring, do your own intake, do your own custom cam grinds, I could go on forever. So untill YOU build your own setup, and PROOVE it on numerous tracks and in front of many people on this board such as I have, then keep your critisisim to yourself please. LIke Ive always said, they always knock it till they drive it. So I want to see your and only your designs on YOUR own built motor, and lets see track times, to back it up and to make things equal, put sand bags in your car to make it the same mass as mine, then well do some constructive critisism. Ive built over 30 L series heads in the last 1.5 years, for all kinds of motors to restored series ones, to full blown race motors, and all customers have great results, but like you say, I dont have a clue what im doing right? I see now why your friends with bubbles, as he is the most ignorant person on the boards.

[lt1will620]

did i say you didnt know what your doing? EVER? did i ever insult you at all? NO!! did i accuse you of copying my design? NO!!, i jus said it looks like mine, so im curious of your results since you have the resources to make it sooner than me. i'm on forums like this to LEARN from people, so just cause im asking questions does not make me ignorant or stupid. If i had 10's of thousands of dollars worth of engine equipment to my disposal, i would use it, but i dont, so i cannot do my own machining on my motors, so i will leave that to a machine shop. How do you have access to this stuff anyway? pretty cool...

 

and no, not anyone can make a turbo car fast (whats your definition of fast?), turbo cars are a whole different animal, im sure you know that, i have not had it on a dyno yet, but the camaro, on 14psi, 93 octane, will spin my 315 Nitto DR's at 100mph, rolling on the throttle... is that fast?

[Mack]

lt1will620, you need to remove your lips from bubbles ass. and any other body parts that happen to be stuck there. I smell a ban coming.

 

1 fast Zs car is not an "all out race motor" it runs on pump gas for crying out loud. however, Ive seen some "all out race" L series motors and they would be lucky to be making the HP his is. SERIOUSLY. If you took 1 fast Zs motor and put it in a series 1 240Z, it would be good for low low 12s to high 11s. power to weight ratio. Now, knocking a full second off of a high 13 pass (like say, to get into a high 12 sec pass) takes a LOT more Hp then the gain to go from high 14s to high 13s.

 

you guys think that you are right (2 of you) and the rest of this board is wrong? give me a break. most of these people on this board have forgotten more info about the L engine that you will EVER EVEN KNOW.

 

IF you are building an SCCA car, which is not really a professional racing body per se, an intake such as 1 fast Zs or the intake BRAAP posted would work great. infact, I doubt you could build an L series engine that would be limited by either of these intakes.

 

 

so, what it all boils down to is put up or shut up. build an intake, build a 3.1l and show us some slips.

[1 fast z]

Yea a SB, with a custom Bottem end, and dual turbos with 1 bar of extra pressure, ya it would be KILLER fast, Impressive too, All im saying is you cant knock someones work till you build something better yourself, so I would LOVE to see someone build a custom motor, and intake and head setup to run 11's on pump gas. I dont have the time to do that right now, for the reason that MCADAM and I, have to have this project done by MSA next year.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the interest!

[bubbleguinea]

ready for high school math everyone??

 

1fastZ's car weight: 2800lbs

 

bubbleguineas 2+2 weight: 2750 with driver

 

that is 50lbs difference with driver...

 

THAT my friends, is math :-

 

ohh, and FYI 1fastZ, the machie shop and guys porting my head???? well, lets just say its the same people that did the machine work to a twin turbo LT1 camero pushings 5 times as much horsepower as your car, so i THINK they know what they are doing...but i disgress, cause hell- my valves are sunk in the head so that means shitty flow, right ? riiiiigggghhhttt

 

13.9 my friend. just like your old engine...even with my sunk valve, shitty ported head against your super duper 1.9 inch diameter intake runners super ported head...

 

THAT is a perfect comparison...

 

your old engine, vs. my current engine. both same traps times, mine faster mph and SLOWER 60 ft time...yet yours has a "super" ported head....

 

*yawn*

[Sparky]

a 13.9 on a 2.8 liter, 2700lb, 34 degrees timing, NA engine IS impressive...

 

It's good, but its not that impressive.

 

 

 

a 12.8 on a full blow 3.1 liter in a 2800lb NA car is NOT impressive...

 

why is it that hard to understand?

 

 

Thats pretty good, but I would expect a little more from that combo

 

 

SHOW ME any FI car NA in a full bodied 280z running quicker then me, guess what there IS NONE, and there definitly isnt any with as little of cam as I have,

 

now THAT is a bold statement that I know for a fact is just plain wrong. My friend overseas runs a LHD us spec 280Z with a full interior AND AC into the mid 12s at 1000M above sea level...and he does this using a slightly worked stock FI intake manifold.

 

All I know is that I designed and built MY OWN INTAKE, where did you get yours, oh yea you BOUGHT yours, so where does that put you? At the bottom of the todem pole?

 

again, a laughable statement, I normally stay out of these pseudo engineer Zcar.com flame fests but this raised my eyebrow for a variety of reasons. You are an excellent craftsmen, and you have some good experience, but you also have the backing of some nice tools and equipment that many people would be envious of. People buy products and services from other people because not everybody has the time or access to specialized equipment needed to fabricate certain parts, on top of that some people also realize that just because they may have the tools, doesn't mean that have the knowledge and training to do something properly. The reason our wonderful economy works the way it does is because these people on the "bottom of the totem pole" rely on others to provide what they need or want. (now that alone doesn't guarantee that the product they are getting would work any better than what they could have built themselves.)

 

again, good job in the craftsmanship department, but just because you designed and built something it doesn't make it the be all end all go fast part. Thousands of man hours in form of schooling and testing goes into some of these parts that us "lowers" purchase for our cars. As an example I seem to recall a certain engine bit that was "designed" by a supposedly knowledgeable Z car "expert." This expert claimed this and that but couldn't prove a thing, in the end this part ended up being a complete waste of time and money, bought by consumers with wallets bigger than their eyes and search buttons. Testing testing and more testing along with hard data to back things up are what's need, not hearsay and conjecture.

[bubbleguinea]

ohh NOT To mention, hey...ask ALL my friends how much oil my old engine burned...how much? about a quart every 500 miles..

 

why??

 

compression was even across the board, except number 4 and 5 were 30psi low... THIRTY PSI...

 

and i STILL ran a 13.9. everytime i looked at plugs, those cylinders were wet with oil...it leaked BADLY past the rings cause of piston swell...

 

my car SMOKED down the track, ask everyone at SEZ! it would puff out nice blue smoke! i had to add 2 quarts before we left to make it back to ATl...

 

think about what it would have done with good compression!

[lt1will620]

All im saying is you cant knock someones work till you build something better yourself

 

 

i was never knocking your work, i was simply saying how it could be made better, and as long as someone would be making it from scratch, i offered an unarguably better way to do so. simple as that, no hard feelings