Lindsey racing air/water intercoolers: Opinions/thoughts

[OlderThanMe]

I have been looking at air-water intercoolers to put into my Z for my turbo motor. My Dad showed my this website: http://www.lindseyracing.com/

He found it on some of the 944turbo forums since that is what they normally work on at lindsey racing.

 

This would drastically reduce any intercooler plumbing and eleminate any pressure drop because of extra tubing and intercooler.

 

Here is a pic of the internal webbing and coolant passages:

 

It has 37.15in^2 of surface area for every inch of the tubing on the inside.

445.8 square inches of surface area in a 12" long version!

This is all packed in a 2.75" tube..

[76s30]

the core design would give much better heat transfer but it is not as compact.

with the tube intercooler thought you could make a new J pipe and fool everyone. "all stock no intercooler" lol

[Guest TeamNissan]

I always liked air-water ics but I have yet to see comparison numbers. I for some reason and I may be wrong, really dont see one working more efficient running off just the radiator. That said if your going to have to run a sep radiator that you kind of defeat the purpose, with the tubing, the pump a sep rad and fan for it you might as well just use a air to air ic. Thats just the way I see it....

 

For the price too I would weld one up using my own or a pirated design wayyyy befor I shelled out 600$ on a "basic" system.

 

I always thought about it too. Imagine thier design but with thinner fins on the outside as well like a heat sink. Idk just dreaming I guess......

[OlderThanMe]

I'd just buy the actual intercooler itself. The whole system is way too much $$$!

This would be perfect for running an air conditioner through.

I have some other ideas to get the intercooler temps below ambient. Ford Lightning trucks use the radiator fluid for their intercooler. You are NEVER going to get IAT's down below 120 degrees with that setup. Even if you run a second radiator it still isn't going to be that great.

It is just a matter of getting the right coolant for the right price and I think you could have an intercooler that gets IAT's WAYYY down below 70 degrees and NOT be running a cooler full of ice.

[Scottie-GNZ]

I have some other ideas to get the intercooler temps below ambient.......

...alky injection.

[OlderThanMe]

...alky injection.

 

you know what I'm thinkin Boss!!!

[Tony D]

For Land Speed Events there are a lot of Air/Water I/C's out there, mainly because many of the cars have a blocked front end, and don't want air flowing through the grille opening. But there areseveral that run an Air-Air unit up front, and then a smaller Air/Water unit closer to the engine for better than perfect intercooling. Constant temperature is constant temperature. The nice thing about a water-air unit with a heat exchanger is that in stop-and-go traffic you have the thermal mass of the water that needs to be overcome before the water starts needing to reject heat. This heat-sink action can be very beneficial for air temps till it starts performing similarly to an Air/Air unit once the water is up to temperature, and must be cooled through whatever means you chose...

 

Hooking the A/C line to the cooler is a gviable option as well... Trim cooling would work well in that instance!

[myplasticegg]

I'd just buy the actual intercooler itself. The whole system is way too much $$$!

This would be perfect for running an air conditioner through.

I have some other ideas to get the intercooler temps below ambient. Ford Lightning trucks use the radiator fluid for their intercooler. You are NEVER going to get IAT's down below 120 degrees with that setup. Even if you run a second radiator it still isn't going to be that great.

It is just a matter of getting the right coolant for the right price and I think you could have an intercooler that gets IAT's WAYYY down below 70 degrees and NOT be running a cooler full of ice.

 

I'm not sure of coolant's properties... but with water and a fan, you can't get below ambient. Why not just get a Spearco air to air and put a CO2 system on it for running from a dig?

 

If you get the right one, you'll have enough room for your IC plumbing and AC. Just a thought

[OlderThanMe]

Myplasticegg: Air to air intercoolers are old passive technology... With an active intercooler you can greatly increase intercooling ability.

 

I wasn't thinking of using water. There are plenty of other cooling liquids that chill way better than water.

 

Even still there are ways to get the water below ambient. It just isn't a passive system anymore.

The main reason I'm looking at an air/water intercooler is that I want to eleminate any turbo pressure loss.

 

I don't want to run Co2... It would be bad to be on a road course somewhere hitting full boost and see the IAT's go up because you ran out of gas. Don't want to detonate an expensive turbo motor because of Co2 running out.

Methanol or water injection is another thing. I'd probably end up using water injection because it is cheaper to refill and I'll be driving the car a good bit. I guess I'll have to do some more research on that subject.

 

Tony: That is why I like the air/water intercoolers. if you hit high boost you don't leave a baking hot huge piece of aluminum up front that is trying to cool itself...

The thremal properties of a good cooling liquid are great for peaks of high temperatures because temps gets equalized very quicky.

 

One idea I had was to get Thermo-electric coolers from a small refridgerator and set them up in the cowl to chill the coolant.

[Tony D]

Actually there has been experimentation with freon-cooled engines. Yeah, they use Freon to cool the water jackets. A bit extreme and environmentally taboo these days, but some college guys in IA / IT classes in the day did some more Freon-Based intercooling activities. Long and short of it, it worked, the HP they got above standard intercooling was more than the parasitics of the compressor and the weight of the system.

 

And that was almost 30 years ago now. Take an A/C compressor out of something like a Geo Metro (about the size of an old A.I.R. Pump) and use it, along with a LARGE HP Accumulator and decently sized Condenser Unit (using the A/C Core from a Chevy Impala for the Evap in the Pressurized Air Side might work well...) for well below ambient cooling. The idea with the Large Accumulator is that the more capacitance you build into a system, the smaller a compressor you can get to drive the system. This means that even with the smallest compressor available, you will still have 'cycle time off' where the only parasitic is the belt drag a nd disengaged clutch. Figure either a Fixed Orifice, or a Capillary Expansion Valve setup to achieve a set chilled air temperature of no less than 35 degrees F (you get lower than that and you will 'blow ice chunks' into the intake and open valves...don't ask me how I know this...) and you will have one hell of a consistent air density.

 

This is the plan for our ZXT at Bonneville. There will be precooling of the air through conventional Air/Air, the secondary cooling was thought to be Air/Water using the aforementioned Ice Tank....but I started thinking about a street application and the duration of the pulls thinking that I may want something more self-regenerating. Like you said, 'halfway round the track and you're out' doesn't appeal to me either. Sure I could put a BIG ice tank, but water has a way of making bad things happen when it's inside a car at speed. I'd like it all to be 'out front' and underhood if at all possible.

 

The electric devices will assist an Air/Air Intercooler, but the amperage and transistor sizes needed to really cool air in that great a quantity would start being prohibitive at the voltages we have available in the vehicle.

 

Take a look to 'refrigerated air dryers' for industrial use---they are exactly the same thing---the thermal mass dryers are quite large and work by chilling big slabs of aluminum as air flows through them. The theory is that refrigeration can overcool the heat sink, and then cycle the reefer compressor off for less energy usage. The only difference in a Dryer as opposed to an automotive intercooler (and it doesn't need to be different, mind you) is that in a dryer the incoming air is precooled by the outgoing air---the outgoing air is then heated up to around ambient so you have a dewpoint differential and less cooling is required from the heat sink.

 

The Honday F1 Turbo cars used a blocked intercooler with their exotic fuel because it wouldn't atomize below 140F. Similar here: heat the air back up to a standard temperature that is sustainable...

 

It would take some calculation and trial and error, but I think a functional Refrigerant Based Intercooler system (primary or supplementary) is totally possible...

[Guest TeamNissan]

Thats WAS VERY informative Tony, thank you for that.

[OlderThanMe]

Very interesting...

Thanks Tony!

[Guest TeamNissan]

What if you ran the stock ac but ran it through the war/air ic? Then you could even control it from inside the car. Or is that a dumb idea? lol

[OlderThanMe]

Tony,

By AIR pump do you mean the thing used for emissions? I am going to be stripping an RX-7 of the emission stuff this week and may be able to have an extra one...

I'll definitely be using an air/water intercooler on my motor. This setup using standard cooling parts just seems logical.

I guess I'll be learning more about A/C stuff now. I just knew how to toss it in the garbage bin..

Maybe I'll go by my old school where I took welding courses and talk to the HVAC guy about getting some of their extra parts for cheap or free. They have like a full junkyard worth of fridges and industrial cooling stuff. I have thought about using one of the one of the aluminum cooling things as an intercooler... I guess that would be the Condenser??

[BLKMGK]

A few things... first of all the Lightning did NOT use fluid from the radiator - never. It used a seperate cooling system and a seperate radiator, for racing folks also ran the coolant through an ice chest. Second, water cools far better than air. I water cool my computer for this very reason. It won't go below ambient but the swings are FAR less pronounced. Glycol based "coolant" will *not* cool as well as water with something like Redline Watter Wetter or Jet Dry in it

 

I have done a great deal of data logging of intercoolers in the past, http://autospeed.drive.com.au/ has some good articles on intercooler cooling too. Think of an intercooler like a capacitor, large intercoolers can ABSORB lots of heat but after you let off the gas intake temps will go up as the absorbed heat is radiated into both the intake and the outside air. The trick is to have a big enough intercooler to absorb enough heat before it saturates. Using water you have a bigger capacitor but it weighs a bit and can be slow to cool.

 

I helped tune a turbo Mustang, something like 347 cubes. Cheap MAC headers flipped from side to side, flowmaster Y, some junk pipe with U clamps, and something like a 72mm turbo or so. IC piping led into the interior through a water based aftercooler holding ice, then into a Hogan's sheet metal intake. Tubbed with a glide that we KNOW was eating at least 100RWHP. This car made 900+RWHP on moderate boost. When the BOV popped FOG came out of it! After each pull there were droplets of water on the intake's outer surface and it was cool to the touch - temps were dropping *below* ambient. Multiple pulls back to back to back before we managed to melt the sack of ice. There was no I/C radiator in this car so the only heat being absorbed was into the water only. On the track is was a beast and had to be detuned as they could not get it to go straight

 

My point is that water works and works well when done right. On the street you will need a way to cool the water and you won't get to ambient easily but you seldom get that with an Air to Air either! On my car I'd see high IATs, then as the turbo spooled they would drop to NEAR ambient, and then slowly begin to come back up with a BIG Air to Air IC. When you let off temps go UP and then slowly come down. I measured this using an insulated lab grade sensor plugged into an aftermarket EMS with datalogging during tons of street and track (drag) driving. My next IC may very well be water based with a decent sized resevoir in the trunk and a radiator somewhere. Ice for track time for sure! Not sure what I'll use for coolant, several different ways to plumb this too.

 

Anyway, don't dismiss them as they can solve packaging issues and may cool better than air to air if setup right. Downsides are complexity and weight but you should get more stable temps and the ability to drop below ambient when using ice on a Saturday night

 

P.S. Some folks have mentioned pipe length as an advantage. On my Supra I was told that a big 4row intercooler on stock turbos would lag blah blah because it was "too big". I datalogged before and after, no measurable additional lag going from OEM small IC to the big honker, another myth busted. To pressurize an engine turbos nmove a TON of CFM, you have to get pretty nutz to have enough added volume to have measurable lag. Ponder that CFM requirement before getting too far down the road with an A/C intercooler - you will overwhelm it. the only successful A/C cooled IC I've seen was on a lightning show truck - it supercooled a resevoir which could be employed for SHORT bursts of power. Forget using Peltiers too, high amps and low effeciency - used those on my computer too and wow do they get HOT!

[Pop N Wood]

There are plenty of other cooling liquids that chill way better than water.

 

Don't know if I agree with that one. Think specific heat capacity. Not much beats pure water.

 

And I agree with BLKMGK. You would need a pretty big AC unit to keep up with a sizeable engine running at any power level for an extended period of time. You might get one to work for a drag car, but then you could save a lot of weight and engine drag using ice instead.

 

I don't know if I agree with the turbo lag agrument. Maybe the kick in lag isn't there, but it has to affect throttle response. Sometimes coming off the throttle is as important as how fast power comes on.

[240hoke]

The water to air i/c has always tempted me due to its compact size and the ability to hide everything from sight. I have for a lone time though about using two small radiators in the fenderwells to cool the water and using a water to air unit either in the fender of inside the engine bay.

 

I really like their design and would like to see somebody use it! There prices don't really seem all that bad to me.

 

Heck maybe ill sell my setup hehe, even though I just finished it.

[OlderThanMe]

Not much beats pure water.

 

When you compare it to stuff you can get at the local store...

 

There are some new, more exotic cooling liquids out now. They are pricey but they work!

I'll get some specifics...

[240hoke]

This is an interesting read to say the least...maybe you shouldnt use a fluid at all...

 

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_1815/article.html?popularArticle

[BLKMGK]

Well, with the larger IC and tubing I couldn't measure nor feel the difference. That was a 3liter motor which is pretty close to the L28 in size. Everyone who said it would be awful had never actually measured nor tried it. To be honest I found that sort of thing alot where folks thought things obvious but testing proved otherwise.

 

Autospeed has done some great work on intercooling and I FULLY agree with their comment about them being heatsinks more so than radiators. The tests I did proved this out, their testing with water spray bore it out too. BTW, when dynoing I suggest spraying the IC with a mix of water and rubbing alcohol between pulls to help cool it down - this works!

 

Here's a good article to read too -> http://autospeed.drive.com.au/A_107760/cms/article.html Not seen the Fusion article but it has some of the same info as the one I'm linking. The use of a boat water exchanger is interesting! Interesting how small a radiator they use for the water, the aftermarket ones for the lightings are pretty big by comparison....