T5, Tremec, or T-56

[pparaska]

O.K. so even though I've never driven a car with a Tremec 5spd, ALL I ever hear from anybody is that they are notchy as hell. I have a notchy 5spd in my Mitsu Eclipse GSX, and it takes away from the driving enjoyment greatly.

 

So I have decided I will get rid of the Tremec. It's brand new, and installed in the car, and has never had even 1 ft-lb of torque put through it.

 

I'm sure I will lose money on selling it, as it has a bad rep. Not sure how I will get rid of it yet.

 

Jim Biondo called me today to tell me about his T-5. No, it didn't break. He had to pull his out because the hydraulic throw out bearing started leaking where the banjo fittings had come loose on it (I don't recall the brand). He didn't like the design and decided on the Tilton piece BTW, since it replaces the front bearing retainer and is a better design.

 

Anyway, since he can't seem to let anything alone, he took the T-5 which was working fine to a guy who builds T-5s for pro-stock guys. He grinds his own gears and makes different ratios and does other things to strengthen the box. Jim had him put the following ratios in the box:

 

1st: 2.55:1

2nd: 1.67:1

3rd: 1.15:1

4th: 1.00:1

5th: 0.63:1

 

These are supposedly the strongest T-5 gears around. The case opening on the front even had to be bored, since the 1st gear was so much larger than stock. With Jim's 3.15:1 diff it will also let him get to 60 in 1st gear, and the shift points are more suited to his engine, etc.

 

Anyway, Jim talked to this guy a while and found that people with 3000+ cars turning single digit 1/4 miles and others doing road racing with 400+ lbft motors were using this guys rebuilds and not breaking them. I think he mentioned Warren Johnson as a customer. The guy is Craig Liberty of Liberty Gears, (313-278-4040), in the Detroit Michigan area, I think.

 

I know the T-5 gets a lot of slamming, but I am really considering it for several reasons:

 

1) I have a WC T-5 that has a decent case and a few good internals to use for a core.

 

2) I can use the Lakewood blowproof housing (non-canted) that I have, the clutch, and the hydraulic TO bearing (McLeod) that I have.

 

3) All I'd have to do is sell the Tremec, get a new driveshaft (I think mine will be too short, and it would need a new yoke up front as well), and I should be done with it.

 

4) The Tremec, even overlooking the notchiness was a bad choice ratio wise. It has a 3.27:1 1st gear which would be basically useless.

 

5) The Tremec has 0 miles on it, so selling it now rather than after some miles would probably net me more for it.

 

6) The T-56 is what I would like also, but I'd have to source a bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, hydraulics, yoke, etc. as well, and that reportedly is tough to do for less than $1500 or maybe more. I have a hard time finding good deals anyway.

 

7) I may someday move from my mildish 327 and go with more power, but I doubt I'd go past te 450 hp / 450 lbft range. If Jim's car and other high powered ones are not breaking the well built T-5, then I should be O.K. This is the one point that bothers me still a bit.

 

NOw I've heard that some of the design points that make the T-5 weak are the shaft spacing being too close to get decent sized (diameter) gears in it and that the roller bearings riding on the shaft is not good either. Anything else that anyone knows of to look for from this guy to make sure he is addressing all of the known weaknesses? He knows about all the Ford upgrades and supposedly goes beyond some of them as far as metal treatments, etc. I will call and get the scoop from him.

 

So I'm looking for comments. I've just about decided to go for it. All I know is I have this sinking feeling that the Tremec is going to piss me off every time I drive it. That would really suck, considering the many years and dollars I've put into it. So it's the Well built T-5 or the T-56. The Tremec is going to come out.

 

Please push me into one of these decisions!

 

Thanks,

Pete

 

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Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project - pparaska@tidalwave.net">pparaska@tidalwave.net -

[John Scott]

Pete, how much is the "enhanced T5? It seems one day I'm ready to go with the builder I found, then the next someone is telling me they just trashed a gear in their WC. I've been assured that the trans will live in my car if I don't run slicks or slam the gears. Now I'm not sure I want those limitations. He told one customer outright, if you drag race the trans. you'll trash it. I know the WC has better deeper hardening, and bigger bearings than the old T5s. This guy designed the countershaft support that really helps. Sounds like your builder addresses many more aspects of the trans. Tell me more when you get more information. Personally, I think I'm getting ready to suck up and save for the T56. Fed ex left a delivery notice on my door. My itsy-bitsy blower pulley is here.

[Mikelly]

That is a hard call. Jim Biondo has a bullet proof system set up and he has some key connections in Detroit. Maybe you can recoup the loss by selling the Tremec, which I think is a wise move. The T56 is by far the best trans I have ever rowed, but you is the way to go. Cost-wise, you could get a custom geared bullet proof T5 for a lot less robbing of the kids college fund..... If Jim hooks you up with his buddy, get a quote... If it is less than half what the T56 would run ya (2K) then you save money in the long run....

 

Mike

 

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"I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!"

mjk

 

[This message has been edited by Mikelly (edited April 20, 2000).]

[Michael]

Pete,

 

I'm going to say something that you probably don't want to hear: STICK WITH THE TREMEC!!!

 

You've been working on your Z for how many years now? Probably your kids have no recollection of what life was like before that car went up on jackstands. I've never driven a Tremec either, but is the hearsay and bad reputation enough to justify scrapping a perfectly good setup, dumping $1500, and losing what may be several months time?

 

I've also installed a transmission with a 3.27 1st gear, but mine doesn't even have overdrive - and I have a 3.7 R200, and - gasp - stock wheels and tires! Is this stupid? Well, maybe, but I know that the combination will not break, that the car will slip and slide long before any gear teeth are sheared off or U-joints get ripped apart. The point is, get it on the road, get that smile on your face that it's finally running, and then worry about remedies for thing that you don't like.

 

The smoothest shifting transmission that I ever drove was in my 1976 Toyota Corona. The T56 - at least the ones in Z28 Camaros - is awful in comparison. But there's a reason for that, not the least of which is that it's rated for about 5 times more torque. Shifting my Doug Nash 5-speed (with the car parked, and clutch inoperable) feels like trying to cut frozen meat with a plastic knife. But for now, I'm willing to call that setup good enough - and I've spent maybe 1/10th the time on my project that you have on yours.

[Mikelly]

I have also experienced the bad "Feel" of the T56 in Fbodied cars. However, I know with my setup, and with running the Syncromesh fluid that GM Bowtie performance group recommended, Mine now shifts as smooth as silk. I have no idea what the problem is with the setup in the Fbodies...

 

Pete, My buddies Mustang is horrible to me, but livable to him. Michael may be right... See if YOU can live with it 1st. If you choose to unload it, I'm sure someone in MD/Va area will buy it for their pony car...

Mike

 

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"I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!"

mjk

[pparaska]

Mikelly and Michael:

 

Thanks for saying what you did. I will keep the Tremec in there to see how it is. Who knows, maybe I can find a friction modifier that will help with the notchiness. I have some from Mitsu, I bet Ford has some. I will be in touch with Tremec to find out if their are any tricks to getting the shifting better if I don't like it. I do know that the Cobra R guys with the Tremec 3550 (same as mine except for the different input shaft, and a few no-consequential parts/mods) absolutely rave over the Pro 5.0 shifter for these. Since it's another $200, I will try the stock shifter first.

 

Thanks for bringing me out of the fog, guys.

 

Pete

[pparaska]

John,

 

Jim seems to remember the price of $1500 outright for the reworked T-5. He does not replace all the gears, as I had thought. Jim told me today that he grinds off the 1st gear from the input and counter shaft and takes 3rd gear sets from a T-5 and machines and welds them into place in the 1st gear postions of those shafts. He uses all the other Ford upgrades except going to the Ford input shaft bearing. Instead he uses a thrust roller bearing, a caged ball bearing and a thrust washer. That seems to work better than converting the GM input shaft to the Ford design. Anyway, I think I have all of this right, but Jim says the guy is very nice, so if you're interested, give him a call: Craig Liberty of Liberty Gears, (313-278-4040), in the Detroit Michigan area, I think.

[Guest Anonymous]

Bear in mind that the only Tremec I've touched is still sitting on my garage floor.

 

I've lived with 2 T5s in my 5.0L. I pulled the first at 160k and replaced it with a 40k mile one that now has ~90k on it. The first was behind a stock motor and the "new" one spent the 50kmiles behind a 300hp motor. Further, I've been open tracking for 6 years now with the time evenly split between the two gear boxes. So far, durability has been good (though I'm much faster today than when I first started). Good gear box technique and smooth shifts are the key to making these boxes live, IMHO.

 

Still, my current T5 is "tired". It's not dead, yet, but I decided that the cost difference between a T5 and the Tremec wasn't huge (compared to the cost vs. a T56) so went with the Tremec for durability.

 

Another anecdote for the T5's durability: A friend has a ~400rwhp blown 5.0L and runs a WCT5. Put ~40k miles mostly street miles on it. Doesn't abuse it, shifts it nicely although he makes the occasional pass down the 1320 or open track.

 

In summary, IMHO a WC T5 will work ok for you, but don't abuse it! A Tremec will give you more margin for abuse, so weigh that against shift quality. If it were a direct bolt in, I'd say to try the Tremec and give it a few thousand miles. Who knows, maybe you got a smooth shifting one!

 

Scott