NZeder Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 you are on the money, the bolt is used only to compress the belleville washers/springs during assembly. I have not taken mine apart and just looking at the housing it looks like the 2 clutches are only their to project the casing and the drums and not for any slip control like a normal CLSD. I will take a look down the axles hole and see if I can see any spider gears. One of the centre has some paper inside it that cam from the packing so I will ,at somepoint, strip this unit down and when I do I will take lots of pics for you guys but don't expect that anytime soon as I currently don't want to do that until I have diff I want to install it into - ie only have gear oil smell once in the garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Here is another try at the video showing how the two drums could rotate opposite eachother inside the ring gear case, eliminating the need for spider gears. The answer is either this, an internally slipping splined section, or hidden spider gears. I don't think there are spider gears here which is why it's so innovative. Baltec-Internal-Differential.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZeder Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 ok just located another R200 4.1 (open centre has been welded) it is in another part of the country so I should have it in a few weeks. I will then strip one of the Balltec down and take lots of pics - I have to finish up my brakes so I can get some bench space back to do this task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage42 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 ok just located another R200 4.1 (open centre has been welded) it is in another part of the country so I should have it in a few weeks. And I'm hoping that I might find an R200 with 3.36s. As least you have what you are needing. The unit looks like it only has 4 drive clutches, so at 2 per side that may be a weakness. Big torque may strip the tabs off the clutches just like it does on the 300ZXT diffs... Guess that is another reason for everyone to upgrade to a 6 clutch setup in their Z31 LSDs, eh? You drag racers blow my mind with that kind of grip to tear stuff up like that. Being a road racer, I just can't imagine that kind of "off the line" grip. With a 4L60E and DOT race tires (road course), I'm thinking I won't my stuff. (hopefully) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZeder Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Ok I decided to pull the first Balltec that I purchased (the one with some packing material inside it) anyway here are some pics - too many for one post so I will do a few. Now as stated I have 2 versions of the Balltec LSD's so I think one is a early version and the other a later version. These were commonly installed into S13 then S14. So I think I have one of each. As stated ones take the input shafts with the c-clips retained inside the centre aka Z31 CV axles the other uses the axles that retain the c-clips ie 5 star. So I have taken pics down the input to show the differences between the two. 1. So first up is the top of the LSD that I took apart. 2. Next is looking at the down the input of the centre that retains the clip 3. Then down the input of the one that has the clips retained on the axles - this is the one I am taking apart. 4. There are 2 belleville springs between the drum and the external housing. 5. Starting to remove the drums, balls and plates. Next post for more pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZeder Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Next and last pics of the series II version of the balltec If you look at the first post with the attachments you will see in pic #2 it is the same as the units that are shown on the sites I posted above with a large spring in the centre etc so I assume if I pull this one apart it will be the same as those units ie clutches etc. However you will see this version is different and when you see inside the drums there is no signs of anything ever begin between the two drums. 6. The larger 1/2 of the external cage - here you can see the slots for the balls to sit in (belleville springs still in the bottom). 7. The drums removed. 8. Balls and plates removed from the drums - I might add tricky to get back together this is why there is all that grease to hole every thing in place. 9. The bottom drum as it was removed. You can see that the input spline is part of the drum so no spider gears. 10. The other drum you can see that there has never been anything between the drums in this version of the LSD. So there you have it - the version 2 Balltec as I call it in bits. I will not pull the other one apart as it is the same as those stripped shown on the Japanese sites listed in the post further up in this thread. Cheers Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZeder Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 This unit listed on ebay looks to be the same as the unit I just pulled apart tonight you can see there is nothing in the centre if you look at the pics in the auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Balltec-180SX-2Way-LSD-R200-S13-A31-C33-R32-Silvia-JDM_W0QQitemZ140283097870QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item140283097870&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Wow great photos. It looks like a nice piece of machinery! I think I am correct in that the left side and right side spin opposite eachother as the balls "carousel" left to right in the tracks. This eliminates the spider gears! Very cool design! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexicoker Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 AH HA!!!! I think I figured it out... cygnusx1, you're right that they spin separately from each other with the balls bouncing back and forth. but I think the difference in angle of the zig and the zag is where the locking torque comes from. Its still got the preload all the time, but when the drums spin separately that difference in angle is going to force them apart or together, producing an applied-torque dependent locking torque. I think =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I'm confused... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 AH HA!!!! I think I figured it out... cygnusx1, you're right that they spin separately from each other with the balls bouncing back and forth. but I think the difference in angle of the zig and the zag is where the locking torque comes from. Its still got the preload all the time, but when the drums spin separately that difference in angle is going to force them apart or together, producing an applied-torque dependent locking torque. I think =) Yup, that's it! You get one breakaway torque under decel and a different breakaway under accell because they are on the steep ramp during accell and shallow ramp during decel. No? John, picture holding the left drum and right drums clammed together in your hands. Rotate them opposite eachother, twisting them. The ball tracks will wiggle back and forth as they spin. This would make the ball-pairs zig and zag left to right, following the horizontal straight tracks inside the outer housing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NZeder Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Pleased the pics I posted helped you guys figure it out. I am told is it a very smooth operation - I will endeavour to get one of the Balltec's I have installed into a centre and into a running car before the 1/2 year is out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexicoker Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 If you look at your solidworks animation (I'm designing LSD's in solidworks right now... for old F1 cars!!) it works because the ramps are the same angle... now imagine that when the top ball is going up its ramp, the bottom ball is going up a ramp of a different angle... this is going to force the 2 drums together or apart. So its the difference between the two angles on each drum that is going to produce the lockup. I think if the ramps were all the same angle, it wouldn't do anything at all. The ring gear and housing would spin, while the balls just go back and forth and don't transfer any force to the drums. my brain hurts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I just can't imagine this thing working without massive side loads on the carrier. Maybe they just make the carrier beefy enough to deal with it. It's a bizarre idea. Looks like this one has no clutches either, just uses the ramps to get the lockup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 If you look at your solidworks animation (I'm designing LSD's in solidworks right now... for old F1 cars!!) it works because the ramps are the same angle... now imagine that when the top ball is going up its ramp, the bottom ball is going up a ramp of a different angle... this is going to force the 2 drums together or apart. So its the difference between the two angles on each drum that is going to produce the lockup. I think if the ramps were all the same angle, it wouldn't do anything at all. The ring gear and housing would spin, while the balls just go back and forth and don't transfer any force to the drums. my brain hurts I see exactly what you mean. So the drums are actually going to spread sideways a little against the clutch springs (belville washers) to increase/decrease breakaway. However that would not allow them to spin freely opposite eachother without "lumping" over. How do you model a zig zag track around a cylinder in Solidworks? I did it in a round-a-bout way using my knowledge from a 1 week crash course I took for work. Can you send me an sldprt file? I can PM my email address. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexicoker Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I don't know of a way to do that... I know there is a wrap feature but I've never used it before. I will play around with it some tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexicoker Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I've got SW2009, so I don't know if it will work if you've got anything older... try "spline on surface" in a 3d sketch, after you've made a cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 This thread re-affirms that there's certainly a higher caliber technical crew on hybridz... If you did a search prior to this discussion on this LSD you'd find next to nothing as far as any technical analysis on the design. I have to admit, I'm still "fuzzy" on the details, although the pictures are helping me... So... a question for the members here that seem to have differentials in their blood... Does this LSD seem like something worth trying out? It sure seems like the choices for LSD's for the R200 are getting more scarce, so having an alternative like this would be attractive if it truly had merit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm not sure about it. I wonder if we can get Flexicoker to run the idea past some of his bosses. He does work at Taylor Race Engineering after all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 No matter how cool and crafty the engineering looks on paper...it don't cut the mustard unless it has been tested on a track and evaluated by drivers/teams in the know. IMHO, it's really cool, classic, mechanical engineering. How it performs on the track or on the street, I don't have a clue. Flexi, I also use Solidworks 2007/2008/2009 at work. I have a few questions about it's application: Was it really a factory supplied diff in the JDM Silvias? Do the splines match 280Z/280ZX inner axle stubs? Does it fit into the 280Z long nose R200's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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