Gixxer Squid Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Took car out for my weekly adrenaline rush on the back roads, car popped, black smoke came out and ran like crap. 1. Took home, pulled all plugs, #4 plug was smashed. Car is a turbo t3/t4. Is is possible debris went through this as well and destroyed the turbo? Car has about 500 miles on it. Extensive modifications but apparently not the right ones, 20k+ 2. Is the 2mm tri-metal head gasket available yet as it has been back ordered for quite some time as I only have a 1mm now? Frankly I don't even know where to start. Bummed in Cali:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlerMonkey Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 You might be able to stick one of those LED lights into the hole and see a bit........or use a borescope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc052685 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Or just check compression. Time to rebuild th bottom end is my bet. What were the specs of the current build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Or just check compression. Time to rebuild th bottom end is my bet. What were the specs of the current build? No compression at all, I checked it when I pulled the plugs. Engine has only 500 miles on it. Brand new EVERYTHING top to bottom, blue printed, balanced, magnafluxed, high heat coated...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Here is the short list: - Special P90 head designed for optimal turbo performance. The head was completely built and finished at Bowers Racing Engines, Longmont Colorado. -Three angle racing valve job with hand lap and back cut on all valves. High heat coating on all valves. -New valve guides; hardened seats; single groove euro dampner; turbo camshaft -Blanchard grind head surface top and bottom. -Turbo port and polish intake and exhaust runners, (swirl finish on intakes, polish on exhaust) -Moly steel valve retainers; dual race valve springs, rod bolt set and main stud set; - All head components that contact each other had surfaces SuperTech Microfinished to reduce wear points. JE pistons are 88mm pistons pistons are high heat coated on top and moly coated on skirts as well as micropolished total seal gapless rings ARP everything Deck height is zero 1mm head gasket 46mm stainless swirl polished intake valves high heat coated 38mm stainless swirl polished exhaust valves high heat coated dual race valve springs good for 7500 rpms and beyond PAR connecting rods 144mm (finished rotating mass 437.5 - 438.5 grams) Everything is new. Including flywheel/pressure plate bolts. Everything is new from Nissan or aftermarket. New billet turbo camshaft *I believe it has a TEP grind - .480 lift 272 intake x 274 exhaust Crank was race prepped by TEP - index grind, detail weights, enlarge and chamfer oil holes, and nitride harden. 550 cc fuel injectors 500 hp bosch fuel pump Electromotive TEC 3 with trigger wheel ignition system 240mm wide flywheel 16 lbs properly pinned to crank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 so much money into this thing already :(:(:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I had a friend with a JE Piston that snapped along the gudgeon pin and did a 70 degree turn into the bore and cracked the water galleys so hard that it pushed the adjacent bores walls into the cylinder and caused the engine to go from 3000 to 0 RPM in under 5 seconds. Diagnosis was faulty piston from JE. I can't remember what the deal was but there were cracks all along the gudgeon pin bore area, and it looked as though the forging was not uniform or the pin was punched along with a twist that was in the grain. small hairline cracks sprang outwards from the line where it snapped. I'm so sad this happened to you man I know what it feels like to spend a lot of money and have something like this happen. Makes you wanna give up... but it's part of the hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 did you get this thing tuned? may have cracked a ring land due to detonation and had a chunk fly into your plug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ahhhh crap, is all I can say. Keep us informed. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Who assembled the engine? As Careless asked, what about a tune? How much boost are you running? You asked me about methanol injection and said you run race gas. Is this still the case? You cannot really 'safely' run more than 15 to 18 psi on cali gas. What are you compression numbers for all cylinders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Who assembled the engine? As Careless asked, what about a tune? How much boost are you running? You asked me about methanol injection and said you run race gas. Is this still the case? You cannot really 'safely' run more than 15 to 18 psi on cali gas. What are you compression numbers for all cylinders? 18 psi 8.5 to 1 91 octane most of the time, race gas is a splurge from time to time. so much for the methanol now. The car was assembled in Colorado before I bought it first part of last year. Psi on all cylanders except bad one was between 115-118 psi. Car still runs and I drove it home about two miles away but had to keep foot into gas so it would not die. I will post picture of plug because although something hit it, its not as crushed as I have seen in the past. I got it road tuned but not dyno tuned week before last after putting wide band o2 sensor it. We had it running around 13.3-13.5 on AFR. Back to the drawing board. I did expect to get a bit more than 500 miles out of it total before this happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 You detonated with AFRs at 13. Anything above 12.5 is dangerous especially on 91. What tuner told you to aim for 13 to 13.5? I would find another tuner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 is 91 all you guys get? i wouldn't even bother to build a motor that well and then run off 91 if there were higher points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Yup, that is an education for sure there. Too much boost and not enough of the right kind of gas. I'd tear the engine down and see what the damage is. Most likely you'll need one new piston, rings, gaskets and maybe you can get it going again. Drop the boost and get the tune right, you should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 You detonated with AFRs at 13. Anything above 12.5 is dangerous especially on 91. What tuner told you to aim for 13 to 13.5? I would find another tuner. No one told me to tune to that. Tuner just said that was what it was set at and I did not read up or question him. There is no other tech3r tuner within 2 hours of me and he a good reputation. Not sure what went wrong. I thought over 12.5 like you mention above is running rich, not lean. Thought below 12-13 was lean. Am I missing something here? Careless. Yes, 91 is the best this great state of California has for us and I think that 10% is corn. We finally got rid of the MTBE additive which sucked as well. Thats why I briefly discussed methanol for extra insurance with KTM If I gotta pull the engine, should I replace with all better pistons to handle the heat if JE has been know to have problems or was it most likely the AFR that caused the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue72 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio For gasoline fuel, the stoichiometric air/fuel mixture is approximately 14.7 times the mass of air to fuel. Any mixture less than 14.7 to 1 is considered to be a rich mixture, any more than 14.7 to 1 is a lean mixture[/url'], given perfect (ideal) "test" fuel There are alot more variables that come into play though, things like fuel composition, combustion chamber shape, forced induction, etc... http://autospeed.com/cms/A_1595/article.html A naturally aspirated engine should run an air/fuel ratio of around 12 - 13:1 at peak torque. The exact air/fuel ratio can be determined by dyno testing' date=' with the ratio selected on the basis of the one that gives best torque. Rich air/fuel ratios can be used to control detonation, and this is a strategy normally employed in forced induction engines. Thus, on a forced induction engine, the mixture should be substantially richer: 11.6 - 12.3:1 on a boosted turbo car and as rich as 11:1 on an engine converted to forced aspiration without being decompressed. As is also the case for ignition timing, the air/fuel ratio should vary with torque, rather than with power.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Can you email me the bin file that you used? Although, like others, I suspect you detonated because of the high boost and lean AFR I'd still like to see how the tune is set. I'm also running 8.5-1 CR and I also use a TEC (although it's a TEC II). With 93 octane and a bone stock head and turbo cam I could only muster 16 lbs of boost with my timing curve before detonating. With all that work done to the motor I would pull the head to see what happened in the combustion chamber with the damage. Then just fix what is damaged. It sounds like you have all the right parts, just need to manage it the right way. FWIW, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 I personally aim for an AFR of 12.5 up to 13 psi, 12 from 13 psi on. Below an AFR of 12.5 timing plays a much greater role in reducing detonation than increasing fuel. This based on my own tuning experience on my engine. You do not need to spend more money on upgrades to your engine. Your tune is what caused you problem. As a matter of fact, your attention to quality parts is what caused such a catastrophic failue. The 1 mm metal? Gasket did not fail but rather a ring/ringland. I've detonated 3 headgaskets to death myself while tuning. They were OEM though. I am successfully putting down around 400 wheel ft-lbs on a stock block, stock head and stock intake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted January 29, 2009 Author Share Posted January 29, 2009 Either this is the beginning of the damage or the end. I am mechanically challenged:icon44: but I don't know if AFR will cause this, maybe so. I was not in the car when the car was being tuned and I have yet to see the data log. I sent an email to the tuner requesting the file. ktm. I went through 2 turbonetic turbo's before finally getting the Garrett. 1st turbo a butterfly valve got sucked in through vavle. Dropped pan and pulled head, 2mm gasket was back ordered so we put 1mm after necessary adjustments. Bearings went bad on 2nd turbo and not from lack of oil. Now we are with Garrett. James For some reason I do not see the shim under the vavle spring on the bad intake ( bottom pix)like I do in the middle picture and the other 11 valves?? I checked the adjuster and it was tight so it did not loosen itselft up? Just don't know what started the chain reaction. I will pull the head when I have time and post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Italianjoe1 Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Pull the head. Looks like a valve came apart or something, but the piston coming apart could have interfered with the valve. Regardless, you have head damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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