strokerzedd Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm still building mine and I opted for an RCI fuel cell with 2 x Denso Fuel Pumps (part #195130-1020) Supra Turbo, one mounted within the fuel cell and the other inside the surge tank that I built. I've got AN stainless steel fuel hise purchased used from one of the nascar teams carrying fuel to the engine compartment and an Aeromotive 13109 fuel regulator under the hood with an HKS fuel rail and RCI 1000cc injectors. I collected all of the info below while researching my build, it might help you make a decision. Hope no one gets upset that I cut and pasted. Fuel Pumps http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm Great info & links The A'PEXi BNR32 fuel pump 404-A011 (an upgrade pump for the Nissan Skyline GT-R) is the highest flowing in-tank fuel pump at line pressures up to 75 psi and at 13.5 volts. It is installed in some Mazda cars that use a factory Denso fuel pump nearly identical in size and design to the 3S factory Denso fuel pump. The relief valve opens at about 75 psi, limiting use to boost pressures up to 30 psi if base fuel pressure is set at 45 psi. With available flow measurements at only 13.2 volts, we do not know yet how this pump performs at lower or higher voltage. Nevertheless, if this pump is installed with a re-wired electrical circuit (providing at least 13.2 volts during WOT operation), six injectors up to 720 cc/min can be supported. The factory R33 Skyline GT-R and HKS Skyline upgrade 1407-RN019 fuel pumps are the second highest flowing in-tank fuel pumps at line pressures up to 75 psi and at 13.5 volts. These fuel pumps may flow a little less than the other pumps below 65 psi, but this is not important when using large injectors. It is the flow at the high boost ranges when large injectors would be required that is important. These pumps can support six injectors up to 640 cc/min with 13.5 supplied volts. The Denso fuel pump 195130-1020 (the Supra Turbo MKIV pump $170 at http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/195130-1020-Denso-Fuel-Pump-Supra-Turbo-Stealth-3000GT_W0QQitemZ250215237239QQcmdZViewItem is one of the best in-tank upgrade choices if you are using injectors up to 550 cc/min and are providing at least 13 volts to the pump. When 18 volts are supplied, the Supra pump is good for injectors up to 880 cc/min. At 13.5 supplied volts no other in-tank pump, except for the R33 Skyline GT-R and A'PEXi BNR32 fuel pumps, flows significantly more fuel up to 70 psi line pressure or 27 psi boost. It is a direct drop-in replacement; all other non-Denso choices require some modification to the fuel pump assembly. It is as quiet as the stock pump. One disadvantage of the Supra pump is its relatively heavy current draw (at 13.5 V, 16A @ 43 psi, 19A @ 70 psi) and large decrease in flow as supplied voltage lowers. Good, heavy-gauge wiring (meaning re-wiring the fuel pump electrical circuit) is a requirement to get the most out of this pump. The Walbro GSS341 model (also called the 255 lph HP) flows a little less than the Supra Turbo pump up to about 67 psi line pressure (24 psi boost), when 13.5 volts are supplied to both pumps. However, at 12 supplied volts, the Walbro GSS341 outflows the Denso 195130-1020 above 55 psi line pressure. Like the Supra fuel pump, the Walbro GSS341 is an excellent choice for 450 cc/min injectors, especially if the fuel pump has not been re-wired (12 supplied volts). Also like the Supra pump, it can be used with up to 610 cc/min injectors if 13.5 volts are supplied, and up to 720 cc/min injectors if at least 16 volts are supplied. The Walbro GSS341 draws about half as much current (at 13.5 V, 8A @ 43 psi, 10A @ 70 psi) as the Supra fuel pump. Some slight modification to the fuel pump assembly is required and it may not be as quiet as the Denso pumps. The price is even less than the Supra pump at $100 to $150. Bosch 044 Fuel Pump Quite possibly the most popular aftermarket fuel pump, capable of providing 300lph free flow and 200lph at 5 bar (72.5psi). We recommend these inline fuel pumps be installed between the in-tank fuel pump and the fuel rail. They require extensive fabrication to mount in tank. Feeding these pumps with another pump in series will boost the pressure at the fuel rail. I wouldn't skimp on your fuel pump as lack of fuel pressure/flow will melt pistons or hole them. I would recommend the Bosch 044 with a surge tank. I would also look on the forum about the wiring to the fuel pump mod for z's as they can suffer from voltage drop which can really mess with advertised flow rates the Bosch 044 is used by many racers and maintains flow rates across all the pressure range (not many pumps mention this fact). Finally the 044 has screw in fittings that allow you to secure the high pressure side better than just clamping it. Handy to know when you could have fuel pouring into your engine bay. It is also worth noting that these pumps can suffer premature failure if the have to suck fuel up to them....e.g. if the pump is located a long way from the tank or mounted higher than the tank, it fights gravity. There were lots of Japanese complaining about failure, but they were all mounting them in the trunk and pulling fuel up to them. One guy even had the stock 8mm line feeding the -10 inlet with the pump in the trunk... I've used quite a few of them over the years from Aeromotive, Paxton, etc, and have had zero failures when the pump is mounted around the level of the bottom of the tank. • One Nismo or Apex in tank fuel pump on 91 octane with 720 cc injectors is done at 500 whp. After that you need more fuel. A single 044 will do 580 whp on good fuel . A single Nismo/Apex/HKS/etc will do 580 whp on good fuel. Dual Bosch 044’s with 800cc injectors will do 600hp. • I wouldn't run two fuel pumps because if one dies then you are screwed. For big HP, I would say go with one big pump that is sucking fuel from a surge tank. Then "Y" it at the engine to go into both ends of the fuel rail with a single return from the regulator. • Most people who do it right the FIRST time, use the stock fuel pump to supply fuel to the surge tank. A lot of guys use aftermarket pumps to supply the fuel, because they initially bought a smaller pump and then wanting more power, they just kept the one they had in there from the previous upgrade. • Use -10 AN (5/8â€) from the tank to the pump, -10 AN from the pump to an inline -10 filter and -8 AN (1/2â€) from the filter to a bulkhead "T" under the hood. Two -6 AN 's from the "T" to each side of the fuel rail. A single -6 AN from the center of the rail to a regulator #13109 (6AN) or #13101 (10AN), and -6 AN from the regulator back to the tank. If you don’t have a tank with a drag-sump style outlet, you will need a surge tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 wow, a lot of great info there too...you guys are great. What's everyone else's opinion on feeding the rail from both ends? I have a Greddy rail and it has a hole in the top (I assume for this purpose). Also, they seem to really like the Bosch 044. Lastly, the last line "If you don’t have a tank with a drag-sump style outlet, you will need a surge tank." This is my fuel cell below, I assume that's what they mean by a "drag style" sump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strokerzedd Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 The fuel rail needs to be fed from both ends to insure an adequate supply of fuel under acceleration. The hole in the middle top is the line that runs to the fuel regulator and then the fuel goes into the return line back to the fuel tank. Fuel injected cars need a surge tank to insure an uninterrupted source of fuel to the injectors. Stock fuel injected cars have a small tank within the main tank, but if you're running the power you want you'll need a separate surge tank. I installed the pumps inside both tanks to cool them and keep them quiet, but it's a lot easier to mount them outside of the tank. Make sure that they get adequate ventilation, some pumps overheat easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 ok...so I need a surge tank, got it. So how's this look? 5 gal cell > 100mic. filter > Walbro 255L lp > surge tank > Bosch 044 x2 > 10mic. filter > fuel rail How big should my surge tank be? Is 1L enough? Will 1 Walbro 255 feed enough gas to the surge tank to supply the dual Bosch's? Is it ok for a surge tank to just be an empty box or does it need some sort of baffling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSouthAfrican Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Here is a little info done by a very reputable company that builds the fastest EVO's in the country. I know of someone who is running a single 044 pump and puts down 598RWHP. I picked up my 044 for $160, can't beat that. I will enventually be going twin but plenty of pump on my 452 RWHP car. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1238595 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strokerzedd Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Great test thread. Surge tank, fuel injected motors need one and it needs a low pressure pump to feed it from the fuel tank and then a high pressure pump to feed from the surge tank to the motor. The surge tank is simply there to insure that the motor never suffers a fuel pressure drop, especially in the corners, otherwise pistons start to melt. The fuel is fed to the surge tank and filled to capacity, the high pressure pump feeds fuel down a large fuel line to the motor fuel rail. The excess fuel if fed back to the fuel regulator from the fuel rail middle fitting. The fuel regulator limits the fuel back pressure, approx 15psi, and feeds the excess fuel back to the surge tank through the return line. The PDF diagram enclosed shows the lines and fuel direction required. Mine might be unduly complicated but I'm overbuilding the whole car. Z Fuel System & Oil Cooler.pdf (DR).pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 14, 2009 Author Share Posted February 14, 2009 Great test thread. Surge tank, fuel injected motors need one and it needs a low pressure pump to feed it from the fuel tank and then a high pressure pump to feed from the surge tank to the motor. The surge tank is simply there to insure that the motor never suffers a fuel pressure drop, especially in the corners, otherwise pistons start to melt. The fuel is fed to the surge tank and filled to capacity, the high pressure pump feeds fuel down a large fuel line to the motor fuel rail. The excess fuel if fed back to the fuel regulator from the fuel rail middle fitting. The fuel regulator limits the fuel back pressure, approx 15psi, and feeds the excess fuel back to the surge tank through the return line. The PDF diagram enclosed shows the lines and fuel direction required. Mine might be unduly complicated but I'm overbuilding the whole car. That PDF is great! Thanks! I'm planning on running twin Bosch 044's after the surge tank, what type of inline should I run between the cell and the tank? Does it matter if it's high pressure? I was thinking either another 044 or a Walbro 255. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strokerzedd Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 The fuel pump from the fuel cell to the surge tank is low pressure so it doesn't matter what you use. I'd stay away from the Walbro though. The following info is taken from various threads: • Yeah everybody's got different experiences. Here's mine: Bosch pumps are great, until they decide to fail. When they fail, you will not know until a piston is melted. They will only reduce volume at max line pressure. • Walbro pumps are great too until you run out of fuel. Believe it or not, the commutator of the Walbro runs on bronze BUSHINGS. Yes, BUSHINGS, not bearings. So if you run out of fuel once, there's a good chance you already hurt the bushing. No fuel = no lubricity. The Walbro engineers know about the problem already. I've had a discussion with them about it. So I am always hesitant to use Walbros on street cars where running out of fuel is a reality. • A1000: I've only used them on race cars so I can't give you any feedback on these. I ran 900whp with a -8AN feed and a -6 AN return. That could be why I didn't have pressure problems. The pump is great for race cars though. Weldons: Forget about it. Don't even think about using these. Reliability is non existent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 The fuel pump from the fuel cell to the surge tank is low pressure so it doesn't matter what you use. I'd stay away from the Walbro though. The following info is taken from various threads: • Yeah everybody's got different experiences. Here's mine: Bosch pumps are great, until they decide to fail. When they fail, you will not know until a piston is melted. They will only reduce volume at max line pressure. • Walbro pumps are great too until you run out of fuel. Believe it or not, the commutator of the Walbro runs on bronze BUSHINGS. Yes, BUSHINGS, not bearings. So if you run out of fuel once, there's a good chance you already hurt the bushing. No fuel = no lubricity. The Walbro engineers know about the problem already. I've had a discussion with them about it. So I am always hesitant to use Walbros on street cars where running out of fuel is a reality. • A1000: I've only used them on race cars so I can't give you any feedback on these. I ran 900whp with a -8AN feed and a -6 AN return. That could be why I didn't have pressure problems. The pump is great for race cars though. Weldons: Forget about it. Don't even think about using these. Reliability is non existent. So I'm probably better off to run 3 044s? Does Bosch make a low pressure 044-type (lph, etc) pump? I don't know too much about fuels systems...but common sense tells me that: if all pumps are equal, 1 feeding 2 will eventually starve the 2...like 1 garden hose filling a bucket and 2 draining it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I've searched for the basics of fuel systems and haven't found answers to the simple things... Once again, thanks for all your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 So I'm probably better off to run 3 044s? Does Bosch make a low pressure 044-type (lph, etc) pump? I don't know too much about fuels systems...but common sense tells me that: if all pumps are equal, 1 feeding 2 will eventually starve the 2...like 1 garden hose filling a bucket and 2 draining it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I've searched for the basics of fuel systems and haven't found answers to the simple things... Once again, thanks for all your help! The facet red top pumps are a low pressure pump and i have 2 feeding my swirl pot and a bosch 044 feeding the greedy fuel rail with nismo 600cc injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 The facet red top pumps are a low pressure pump and i have 2 feeding my swirl pot and a bosch 044 feeding the greedy fuel rail with nismo 600cc injectors. Does the Facet "red top" have a part number...I've Googled "facet red top" and haven't gotten any good leads. I could baffle the surge tank if the high pressure is a concern. Will an inline pump "suck through" if the pressure requires? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datsun dave Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Does the Facet "red top" have a part number...I've Googled "facet red top" and haven't gotten any good leads. I could baffle the surge tank if the high pressure is a concern. Will an inline pump "suck through" if the pressure requires? Facet Competition Red Top part number 480532 www.facet-purolator.com its called on the site Gold-Flo and are made your side of the water !!!! Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strokerzedd Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 The surge tank/swirl pot is always kept full to the brim by the low pressure pump from the fuel cell and the return line from the fuel regulator returns back to the surge tank/swirl pot as well insuring it's always full. The high pressure pump insures that the fuel injectors always receive high pressure fuel but the regulator controls the whole systems pressure, effectively applying "brakes" to the whole system. The high pressure fuel pump can't override the fuel regulator so the high pressure fuel pump just doesn't work as hard. Installing two high pressure pumps in series won't increase the pressure, just give you added insurance should one fail. I should have put a low pressure pump in the fuel cell but just installed two of the same since the fuel regulator will determine how hard it works after it's filled the surge tank/swirl pot. As long as your surge tank/swirl pot is big enough, once it's filled you won't ever use enough fuel to empty or even partially empty it since it's constantly resupplied by both the fuel cell and the return line from the fuel regulator. More info cut and pasted from the net: Fuel Surge Tank Vehicles fitted with EFI from the factory have a surge tank in the fuel tank - so when you’re accelerating or cornering, fuel can’t rush away from the fuel pickup, causing the engine to stall or surge. Surge tanks for high hp applications (700+WHP) need about 3.5 - 4.5 litres. • EFI uses an electronic fuel pump, and the supply lines after the pump are pressurized to around 40-60psi. That’s a LOT! In most cars, the electric pump is mounted INSIDE the fuel tank and pumps fuel up the length of the car to the engine's fuel rail. So this means that you have 40-60psi pressure on the fuel supply line from the pump, right up to and inside the fuel rail. The fuel rail holds your fuel injectors onto the intake side of the engine and houses a volume of fuel under pressure, which flows through the injectors and into the engine when the ECU tells the injectors to open. Pressure is maintained in the fuel rail by the fuel pressure regulator, which has a mechanically controlled diaphragm that allows excess pressure (fuel) to escape, and in doing so maintaining the correct pressure within the fuel rail. So the unused fuel flows out of the fuel rail through the fuel pressure regulator, and back into the fuel tank.... and the cycle continues. In a carbureted fuel tank, when you have a light fuel load (less than a 1/3 of a tank) the pick up line will frequently suck a pocket of air. With a carburetor this is no problem because the float bowel holds a fuel reserve, but with EFI there is no factory fuel reserve and a moment of reduced fuel supply with cause the engine to fuel starve, run lean and possibly break. Now a little about EFI fuel pumps.... There is a reason they are usually mounted inside the fuel tank - THEY DONT SUCK GOOD. Unlike a mechanical carburetor pump, they aren’t very good at drawing fuel out of the tank... they are useless at it. Fuel almost literally has to be poured into the inlet of the pump - you'll hear the term "gravity fed" used to explain this. By having the pump inside the tank, the inlet is submerged in the petrol right at the bottom of the tank and thus gravity is forcing the petrol into the pump. So THAT'S why you need a surge tank! Basically they are a secondary fuel tank you can place somewhere suitable to gravity feed the EFI pump. Of course somehow fuel needs to get from the fuel tank to the surge tank - this is where an electronic carburetor pump, or "lift pump" is used. These are a low pressure, high volume pump that CAN suck. MAKE SURE to use EFI fuel hose for any rubber lines after the EFI pump. Carburetor fuel lines can’t handle the high pressure. Some places also have "EFI" hose clamps... these are just normal hose clamps with beveled edges and solid clamping face that doesn’t bite into the rubber hose at all. You MUST use a carburetor fuel filter before the lift pump (an EFI filter provides too much restriction), and an EFI fuel filter after the EFI pump (a carb style paper element filter is of no use against the higher feed rate of an EFI pump). As such dedicated Pre Filters are available to screen out foreign matter without restricting flow. For ease of installation, a 300zx style EFI fuel filter works well, having barb fittings at either end. Simply chucking an in-tank EFI pump into your carburetor fuel tank won’t always work.... in most EFI tanks there are baffles that keep the fuel around the pickup of the pump to avoid starvation when the fuel is low and you are cornering. Most people put baffles in themselves or make a "swirl pot" - a small lowered pool at the lowest point of the tank where the inlet of the pump is then put. Doing this yourself is EASY. Just be careful, and make TRIPLE SURE you know which line is which when you are attaching hoses!! Pump selection, When choosing your lift and main pumps its a good idea to ensure your Lift pump will slightly outflow your main pump, keep in mind this is flow not pressure. Your lift pump needs to be able to supply enough fuel all the time. I don't think a weld in sump and fuel tank baffling is the best idea, I still don't like the idea of a ton of fuel pumps. I think that one pickup pump from the gas tank feeding one decent sized surge tank (doesn't need to be huge) and one single high-flow pump from there to the engine. As for a lot of ss hose...there really isn't any other option if you want the best fuel system setup. Although I have seen one fuel surge tank setup that used mandrel bent tubing with compression fittings rather than hose, this would be lighter than all SS lines, but much more custom work would be involved. http://www.sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm Step away from the Walbro. Get a NISMO pump. You will probably not be running your 720cc injectors at 100% for any duration of time, so the NISMO will do just fine. FYI for my use we used two NISMO spec. pumps but that was for the greater headroom that two provided- two pumps run in parallel. Ended up with a 40% over capacity, but under boost pressure you'll be glad to have the NISMO pump in there. The Walbros and the Bosch both have lower flow ratings at higher boost pressure, the NISMO does not drop off as dramatically. Don't bother with the Bosch pump either. Been there, done that mistake. Definitely do not install a fuel pump "inline" aka in series with the stock one in tank. At least, don't do that without a collector tank for the secondary pump and a return line to the primary tank. That kind of system ends up being more complicated than just running twin NISMOs in tank. We always use the Apexi intank of SARD units. Apexi = best. SARD = better price wise Apex and Nismo are the same pump. A single Nismo/Apex has been tested as the highest flowing intank pump you can buy up to about 80 psi. A single Nismo will do 600 whp with enough injector. http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm 1. Do not use 1/4" - 3/8" o.d. lines on a racing fuel system between the fuel cell and the pump. Racers often joke about their first racecar and how the fuel line was so small it functioned as the main jet. Ensure the fuel is supplied through lines that are of the correct size for the application. Push-Lok, stainless steel braided hoses, and aluminum tubing are the most common fuel lines used on race cars. 2. Avoid right-angle hose-end fittings from the pump to carburetor as much as possible. Although they are inexpensive and readily available, they're restrictive and frequently cause fuel flow troubles. Hose ends with angles of 90˚ & 45˚ should also be avoided if possible. Nonetheless, should it become necessary to use one, use radiused hose ends (90* bends) as they have much better rates of flow. They're manufactured from aluminum, equipped with swivel ends for a positive seal and are easy to install 3. Use a relay to ensure the electric fuel pumps are provided with the proper voltage in order to maintain proper fuel flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strokerzedd Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Here's an even simpler fuel line/surge tank drawing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S15 200sx owner Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 Good info guys. One thing to note, if you are getting really serious about this, ie a race car etc. Is when the fuel is pressurised it heats up, so if you route the return line from the regulator back into the surge tank, you can end up with the fuel in the surge tank getting quite warm - which ultimatly reduces power. If you feed the return line back into the main tank, the fuel gets more of a chance to cool down before being picked up from the surge tank and put under high pressure again and therefore heated up again. On a previous turbo circuit car we were looking for every little edge so we had a fuel cooler unit built into the ice water/methanol tank that we used for the water injection etc. It was simply a coil of copper tubing which was inside the ice water tank, and the fuel heading to the fuel rail passed through the copper tube coil. For a road car it probably wouldnt really matter which way round you did it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted March 4, 2009 Author Share Posted March 4, 2009 How would this work for a low pressure pump? http://www.professional-products.com/fuelpumps.php I was lookin at the 70152, 255lph/45psi/up to 665hp (turbocharged) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboSE Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 Any ideas on the "Professional Products" pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZT-R Posted December 6, 2010 Share Posted December 6, 2010 sorry to bring up the dead, but would it hurt to run 10 an feed and a 10 an return? i hear some stories of surge tanks splitting due to rising pressure. ie not big enough return. is there any downside to using a big return line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZT-R Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 (edited) is this a sard tank? i can build it no problem, but i cant seem to find a lid like that. i dont have any milling equipment or i would attempt to make my own lid Edited December 9, 2010 by boostedh23a1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardBlack Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 sorry to bring up the dead, but would it hurt to run 10 an feed and a 10 an return? i hear some stories of surge tanks splitting due to rising pressure. ie not big enough return. is there any downside to using a big return line? I have not heard of that, but you must remember that a surge tank has four fittings in it. The in-tank pump feeds the surge tank and then there is a return to the cell. Then there is a fitting to feed the big fuel pump and a return coming in from the fuel rail. Two in, two out. If your return to the fuel cell isn't big enough, then you could build pressure, I suppose. -10 return to the surge tank is overkill, but sizing a small return to the cell/tank (because it runs next to the in-tank feed pump, which can be smaller) is a mistake. You have to evacuate the flow of the big pump through that return line. Whatever you use, make sure the return from the surge tank to the fuel cell is at least as big as the return from the fuel rail to the surge tank. I personally put three fittings on the top of the tank (fuel in from small pump, return in from rail, return out to cell) and one near the bottom (fuel out to big pump). The return to the cell/tank must be at the top. The feed to the main pump must be near the bottom, but I would not stick it on the very bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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