jeffp Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 No Tony, you just make little suggestions that end up costing lots of money LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 fast z Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Just some info on the meth. I ran 24 PSI a BUNCH Of times in second and third gear on the twin cam motor, without knock on pump 91 octane. I installed meth, so I can run 30 PLUS psi on pump fuel. The DOHC head I am sure helps with the detonation/quench issue though. I would think that at 12 PSI and a standalone and enough injector, that you should be able to run that on straight pump gas and not meth? BTW Jeff, I have not got those measurements yet on my oringing, but I believe that It is about 3mm a side larger than the bore Is what I have been doing. It really depends on the head, as you have to make sure the oring is right below a strong portion of the head. BTW Jeff, what is the piston to head clearence you have been running? And just for jabs, I picked up an entire LD motor complete from the junkyard yesterday for the price of a LS400 AC compressor . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I am not the Piston Ring Antichrist. Association with me will not cause you to blow head gaskets and sink your rings and cost you tons of money. The power of Boost Compels You!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffp Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Brian, I am running about 1mm clearance. The piston is 0 deck heigth, well on the 3.0 engine. I have the stock bottom end in the car currently. Boost, yes 12 psi is 410 hp with methanol injection. The dyno chart you looked at MSA was correct, very nice graph. I am working on some stuff to change with the build and we will see how that affects how the engine runs. You know Brian, I am beginning to think the engine dyno is the best to do the tuning. You can load the engine well and come up with what should be just about a perfect tune. No worries about the differances in the weight of the car and all of that mess. I would love to have a land and sea unit to do some testing with. I need to figure something out, using the car is just not as good and leaves flat spots in the tune. anyway, 3mm I will keep that in mind. I still have not decided to go forward with the bad block. I have gotten caught up on the cyl head currently. That is going set me back a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardBlack Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Brian, I am running about 1mm clearance. The piston is 0 deck heigth, well on the 3.0 engine. I have the stock bottom end in the car currently. Boost, yes 12 psi is 410 hp with methanol injection. The dyno chart you looked at MSA was correct, very nice graph. I am working on some stuff to change with the build and we will see how that affects how the engine runs. You know Brian, I am beginning to think the engine dyno is the best to do the tuning. You can load the engine well and come up with what should be just about a perfect tune. No worries about the differances in the weight of the car and all of that mess. I would love to have a land and sea unit to do some testing with. I need to figure something out, using the car is just not as good and leaves flat spots in the tune. anyway, 3mm I will keep that in mind. I still have not decided to go forward with the bad block. I have gotten caught up on the cyl head currently. That is going set me back a little. Why not a Dynapack style dyno. You can hold it at load all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffp Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I have run the car on that dyno, not bad. I liked the idea that I could see the whole running gear in action. I don't however like stressing the rest of the dive assembly if I don't need to. The cooling will be much better on the engine dyno. That is what I am really working the cooling for high hp sustained operation. I like the idea of continious drag on the engine, very similar to what a boat engine is subject to. That is the very best way to tune, because now you have the ability to increase, decrease fuel and timing without the "car" getting hot. I need to keep the engine cool and the higher the hp the increased heat is becoming an issue, so much so that I am working on some changes that I think just may be helpful before I try for high hp levels. I have blown a forged 3.0 block, and I think like Bo a stock bottem end block. The car sits a while until I get the cylinder head completed. This is what I worked on tonight. The EURO manifold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 (edited) Just read this post and sorry to hear about your engine issues. As you may know I just got my car back after detonation and dropped #4 valve seat. Just spent $3200 for all work, larger fuel lines, installation of meth kit, larger turbo cam shaft and some other upgrades. Put it on Dyno after having it one week to get AFR right, blew it UP! Have not pulled head yet but know I dropped another retainer on the intake side #6. as the lash pad fell off when I took the valve cover off. The whole purpose of the meth was to cool things to run higher boost. Did not even have the chance to turn boost up. Not to hijack Bo's thread but some interesting points are brought up. 1. That headgasket could have been part of the problem, thats the same one I had before I had the latest rebuild. 2. Top of your pistons were pretty black, the meth should have kept the carbon deposits pretty darn clean should it not. I have been toying with idea of doing a 3.2 turbo stroker, after reading this thread and the potential loss of HP 175+, obviously I would be going in the wrong direction it seems. There is no turning away from turbo though. Is is possible to build to even build a RELIABLE inline 6 to run at 450 hp give or take at 12-14 psi or so. I had the car set at 20 psi. meth came on at 6 psi to full spray at 15 psi. Considering possibly adding EGT sensors to #2 and #5 during rebuild. Comments. Just seems to me that once you go over 15-18 psi boost that you better have an endless supply of $$$. I think it rather odd to drop 2 new steel retainers on a brandnew engine. Although head gasket and everything held up this time I cant help but think that the sonic waves from detonation is screwing up my retainers causing them to drop. WB sensor though just does not show the temp inside the combustion chambers. Almost kicking myself for not throwing the 383 stroker motor I was originally going to put in. Wanted to keep with the inline 6 originality theme. Confused and frustrated beyond belief. Also: boost hit 18 psi quickly but creeped up to 20 psi in 2-3 seconds, think boost controller needs to be upgraded, suggestions? Edited July 19, 2009 by Gixxer Squid none Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 Well, I've had a run of "luck" over the past 1.5 years and managed to only blow head gaskets. My luck just ran out it seems. I blew a headgasket along with the ring(s) on cylinder 3 for sure and maybe more. Detonation damage for sure. I dont know Bo, your boost with meth/h20 is really not all that high. guys running 30+ is high but i do not find what u were running all that extreme unless these engines are not capable of sustaining the heat for extended periods of time, unless these inline 6's are just not as reliable as well all think they are . h20 has no octane rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 I am running 100% methanol. I do not have any issues when running methanol and a blend of 100 octane and 91 octane. I was in the process of detuning the car for just pump gas. I can manually switch maps via a toggle swith between 100 octane and pump gas both with methanol. The problem is not fuel related but timing. My afrs are dead nuts on, but timing is another matter. I was pulling timing but not enough. My EGTs are around 1500 under boost. The pistons are black from oil most likely. The residue was very oily. I get everything back on Wednesday and will be up and running within the month hopefully. This time I am pulling quite a bit of timing (which I thought I did). I should also mention that the block was a high mileage block. The cylinders were glazed and had ring wear to the point that a 20 over was necessary. It was its time, so to speak. The point of methanol is to add octane to your fuel; water injection cools combustion temperatures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 I am running 100% methanol. I do not have any issues when running methanol and a blend of 100 octane and 91 octane. I was in the process of detuning the car for just pump gas. I can manually switch maps via a toggle swith between 100 octane and pump gas both with methanol. The problem is not fuel related but timing. My afrs are dead nuts on, but timing is another matter. I was pulling timing but not enough. My EGTs are around 1500 under boost. The pistons are black from oil most likely. The residue was very oily. I get everything back on Wednesday and will be up and running within the month hopefully. This time I am pulling quite a bit of timing (which I thought I did). I should also mention that the block was a high mileage block. The cylinders were glazed and had ring wear to the point that a 20 over was necessary. It was its time, so to speak. The point of methanol is to add octane to your fuel; water injection cools combustion temperatures. Glad you will get your car up and running soon. I am back to the drawing board. Maybe I need a new head. Do you have an EGT in each exhuast outlet? Do you have a gauge to measure these or did the dyno you used have one? Whose EGT probe did you use, where did you tap into it, you have a picture? I think I am going to add one this time around to monitor things. I am running 51%meth and 49% water mixture so I actually have the benefit of the octane and the cooling effect of water, maybe I did not make myself to clear, sorry. Whose boost control gauge are you using? James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 James, I have an EGT sensor installed near the turbo flange on the exhaust manifold. I bought it from Redline Gauges. I have it hooked up to my Innovate LMA-3 Auxbox and record it during my tuning runs. Its not hooked up to a gauge but a data logger. What do you mean by boost control gauge? I am using an internal waste gate and a GM-type PWM controlled boost controller. The WG actuator sees NO boost until 17 psi (with methanol) so boost hits hard and quick. It then modulates my boost to 22 psi up to peak torque and increasing it after peak torque. I do not have issues with boost creep fortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gixxer Squid Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 James, I have an EGT sensor installed near the turbo flange on the exhaust manifold. I bought it from Redline Gauges. I have it hooked up to my Innovate LMA-3 Auxbox and record it during my tuning runs. Its not hooked up to a gauge but a data logger. What do you mean by boost control gauge? I am using an internal waste gate and a GM-type PWM controlled boost controller. The WG actuator sees NO boost until 17 psi (with methanol) so boost hits hard and quick. It then modulates my boost to 22 psi up to peak torque and increasing it after peak torque. I do not have issues with boost creep fortunately. Thanks. I may as well install an EGT during my rebuild as well. I meant boost controller. The guy doing the tuning said my boost controller was not good and the possible result of my boost creep. Hit hard to 18 and then took another 4-5 seconds to get to 20 psi which is what I had it currently set at. I saw some elaborate boost controllers in the $500 range but that seems a bit steep. Thanks for clarifications, James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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